Hi, Ashley
Thank you for your comments. For some reason this question really bothered me, and while I think I've figured out most of the reasons it does, there are some details that still remain. Your comments helped me clarify a few more.
Quote from: Ashley3 on January 26, 2018, 12:51:12 PM
Overtly covert? ... Is that possible? 
... Seriously, I think I get what you're saying but I've never heard the pronoun question asked with that sort of intent. I don't think it can be a covert question because one is being clear about what they're asking. The intent I've always sensed is very positive about communicating respectfully.
I believe the expression may have originated from the Fugs'
CIA Man. It really tickled my laughter meridians when I first heard it. ^o^
I do concur that the question can also be used innocuously. For me the prime prerequisite would be that the person asking it be completely alone with me. That way there is no-one except the parties present to make anything out of it. In this case I would understand the motive for asking the question to be avoidance of using the wrong gender in public.
However, even in that situation I would prefer
"Are you a boy or a girl?" While it is a matter of nuance,
"What pronouns should I use" implies that the person has or will categorize me as an entity that wants to be referred to by pronouns that may or may not be congruous. In contrast,
"Are you a boy or a girl" implies desire to categorize me as either male or female.
The first question is much more specific. It clearly indicates that a judgment has already been made, and implies that by giving any response (possibly apart from a merry laugh at the absurdity of the question) I am concurring to merely
wanting that a particular set of pronouns be used.
The latter question implies that the asker is confused or uncertain, and wants clarification. It is a request for help to resolve the uncertainty without ulterior nuances. If I respond
"I'm a girl" that is a statement of fact, not of desire or preference.
Misgendering is akin to the second question in that it is the responsibility of the misgenderer. Should I choose to correct it, that also is a statement of fact, not an admission to a preference.
In my mind this distinction is even more important when in a public situation. In my experience, the more specific the question, the more attention it attracts from anyone who hears it—and all of the attention is directed toward the replier. Thus, I personally could never use rmaddy's sample response—i.e.
"I appreciate the question. Generally speaking, take your cues from the person's presentation. If there is still doubt, it is better to ask than assume. I use she/her/hers." In the situations I'm used to that would at least momentarily completely divert the flow of the meeting from the true subject at hand. As mentioned above, I would also be stating that I
want the speaker to use those pronouns, which would implant and confirm the asker's hypothesis in the minds of the others present.
I live where such nuances matter. If someone asks whether my route back home will take me past the post office, the appropriate response is to say "yes" and wait, thus giving the asker an opportunity to ask me to e.g. drop a parcel en route.
Quote from: Ashley3 on January 26, 2018, 12:51:12 PM
I see it differently... one's genitals and what pronouns one prefers are way two different things. Pronouns are used to communicate effectively to one another... generally they are not considered private information if we interact with another, even strangers.
True. I guess my point wasn't clear enough—I hope my response above helps. It's what is I would reveal by responding that is private, rather than the pronouns themselves.
The example I used is very imperfect in that its visceral intensity makes the nuance hard to transcript—the best I can think of at this moment would be a shop detective asking
"Would you mind letting me know what is causing the bulge where your right trouser pocket seems to be? I'm sorry if I sound rude, but I do need to know."In conclusion, thanks for your understanding. I never expected to write this much about this subject, and upon rereading what I've posted have been somewhat worried that it may cause conflict.
Hi, rmaddy
Thank you also for your reply.
Quote from: rmaddy on January 26, 2018, 03:48:43 PM
Sure...I get that. I take that option sometimes, particularly in my professional context when the person misgendering is under my care and already in some degree of health-related distress. However, my understanding of the question was not "How do I respond when misgendered or asked about pronouns?", but rather "Which would I prefer?"
Yes—I guess I failed in composing the paragraph. Please allow me to me make a revision that should better express my intent.
Underlined=correction and
strikeout=deleted.
I've not experienced anything like that, but although I must admit yes it would feel bad, in the situation you suggest I still would still much prefer being misgendered. The reason is that if simply misgendered That said, should it happen I would have the option to just ignore the pronoun and say what I needed to. On the other hand, if the speaker said "Yes... excuse me, which pronouns should I use?" it would break the flow of the meeting and focus everyone's attention on my reply. As I attempted to express in my (rather rambling) previous post, I really prefer to concentrate on the work at hand rather than allow the focus of attention to be diverted to the subject of my gender.Thus—I did mean to say that I prefer to be misgendered, and apologize for using punctuation and wording that perhaps made it seem to you I was just writing about how it made me feel.
Quote from: rmaddy on January 26, 2018, 03:48:43 PMI also get that such a question might be surprising or disarming, calling for a little mental agility. If a speaker asked such a question, I wouldn't be offended, but I might insert an opportunity for education if my presentation were clear:
"I appreciate the question. Generally speaking, take your cues from the person's presentation. If there is still doubt, it is better to ask than assume. I use she/her/hers."
Everyone at the table learns. I come across as knowledgeable and confident, and the speaker, who was already trying to be accommodating, is highly unlikely to take offense at the brief diversion. After all, she/he started it.
I understand what you want to say. I guess our work environments really are very different, and I probably failed to make clear my own intent and reasoning in the context of the meeting example that you suggested. Put concisely, in my case any personal or other non-work related subjects are not tolerated in a meeting. All needs to move as precisely as clockwork—there is no room for anything that doesn't contribute to getting the job done. Thus, regardless of motive, shifting the focus to myself would be considered nothing but crass self-centeredness.
Again, cultures and situations differ, and I do understand that the reaction you suggest may be unreservedly laudable in yours. If so, it makes me happy that you know the right thing to do.
Quote from: rmaddy on January 26, 2018, 03:48:43 PM
Remember too that some folks are in process and others are perfectly content in non-binary space. Misgendering them is careless. Asking them is polite. People who know this also generally know that when someone's presentation is overwhelmingly toward one side of the gender spectrum, the pronoun can be inferred. To be clear, I'm not talking about whether someone is hard to perceive as trans, but rather the manner in which they present themselves. An "enlightened" party who sees that someone is trans and presents completely in the garb and style of either men or women--but STILL asks the question--might need a little boost to their enlightenment. And, of course, a good speaker might recognize another option on how to address someone whose gender wasn't 100% clear. "Yes, you (gesturing)...in the light green shirt."
Yes, I do understand. I agree that once all other options are exhausted, a privately made inquiry can be the best choice. And I also agree with you conclusion that even if in doubt the speaker in your example really has no reason whatsoever to ask which pronouns to use.
If I'm the only person with my hand up, the usual response in situations I'm used to is for the speaker to raise an arm in my direction and say "Yes?" If there are several, it usually is something like "Let's do this one section at a time. Please pass the mic to the xx team."
Anyway, it is clear that one choice cannot be right for every person or situation. As I've tried to express throughout, what I've written is merely an attempt to pinpoint the reason I
myself prefer to be misgendered. Your hypothetical situation has helped me do so and give a concrete foundation to it.
In conclusion, wanting no-one to know I'm transgendered would be unrealistic. It would require the use of a men-in-black device that selectively erases the memories of everyone I grew up with—and I'd feel morally constrained to use such even should I have one and the desire to do so. What I definitely do want is to prevent that part of me from occupying even the most minute portion of my life that I can. In this sense, I feel that my reasoning is sound for me where I stand.
My desire to be as inconspicuous as possible where gender is concerned is is further reinforced by Kylo's option two above. It would rankle me to no end to think that someone might feel it necessary ask what pronouns to use in order just to avoid repercussions from a simple mistake. To me fear is an the enemy of clear thought and compassion. I can't even imagine wanting anyone to think I might mete out punishment or admonishment for what should really be considered standard polite conversation in 99.9% of interpersonal transactions in some languages—just because I
myself happen to in one minor aspect be outside of the norm.
