Quote from: AquaWhatever on January 23, 2018, 12:08:10 PM
...but gender dysphoria is literally the diagnosis for transgender.

No, it literally is not.  Spend some time on the APA site or other transgender education sites.  Transgender and gender dysphoric are not synonymous, and repeating the claim doesn't make it more true.

This will be my last post in this topic. There are two things that really disappoint me here. One is this topic itself. It has no place on a site where the mission is "There is no right or wrong way to transition" and where "Am I trans enough?" isn't supposed to exist.

The second thing that bothers me is the long term posters I see viewing this thread and not saying a word. Suggesting we agree to disagree over the validity of our identities with a pizza party is akin to saying "You can't sit at the front of the bus, but have some fried chicken and watermelon."

I'll say that any absolute is a myth (except death and taxes). GD, gender identities, sexuality, society and life itself is a multifaceted rainbow.
Only a person, who's lived their own life is truly qualified to say what they are, and what they need to be happy, anyone else is just guessing.
Live your life, and let others live theirs,  then we'll all be happy [emoji4].

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Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 24, 2018, 12:12:14 PM
Suggesting we agree to disagree over the validity of our identities with a pizza party is akin to saying "You can't sit at the front of the bus, but have some fried chicken and watermelon."

That is absolutely not what I meant, and I sincerely apologize if it came across as dismissive. My only intent was to inject a little levity into a topic that was becoming far too contentious, in which terminology wasn't being used consistently(you can't really argue about if "x is y", if neither side defines in the most literal dictionary sense "x" the same in the first place). I'm in 100% agreement with what you've expressed on the topic, and have said as much, and I hope the poor attempt at peace making on my part didn't undermine that sentiment.

I already made a comment but I think I can elaborate/share a bit more on what I think about this now after having thought it through a bit more. And I'll try my best to be both clear and considerate, but I don't make promises.

As far as I see it, to be transsexual you do need to have dysphoria in some form or another, whether mild or more extreme. Also not really experiencing direct dysphoria per se but euphoria/relief upon transitioning I think counts as well.

I don't think the term transgender should be used as an umbrella term that includes transsexual, cause it's been very confusing for a lot of people whether they're trans themselves or not. Being gender non-conforming is not the same as being trans. You can be both, of course, but there's already a term for people who are gnc without dysphoria or any gender incongruence and I don't understand why that somehow isn't good enough. Why not just stick with calling yourself gender non-conforming if that's what you are. I don't get it.

However I could get on board with the term transgender including non-dysphoric people as long as their gender identity does not correspond with their birth sex, but that the definition for transsexual still requires dysphoria. Whether you're binary or non-binary doesn't matter, whether you actually transition or not doesn't matter either.

I don't think it's a good idea when gender and gender expression keeps being conflated with each other. Just switching gender roles/clothes doesn't make you trans, but it's absolutely fine to do so if you wish to. Just don't say it makes you trans.

I have no issue with people just being whoever they are, I only have issues with how the labels are being used, cause I think it should be correct. Cause the definition of the term transgender has been broadened over time to mean more than what the consensus once was on what it means. That I don't think was a good kind of change. It feels like the word is starting to lose it's meaning and I worry where that may lead in the future if the definition keeps broadening. I think it complicates things like communication a lot, especially when we within the community can't even agree on what is what. But regardless of which term means what and my own personal opinions, I think it would be important to eventually come to a generally established consensus on the matter to clear up the confusion and make communication, both within and outside of the trans community, a lot smoother. My suggestion would be to separate the two terms transsexual and transgender to have different meanings, or create new words for different kinds of gender experiences. Cause it's more important that words/labels have clear definitions that people understand, than to use whatever label anyone wants to cause they just want to be included or feel validated.

Roll: I understand what you're saying, but that we can't agree on the terminology is exactly the issue here. And that is also what would be important to sort out or I think there's a high risk of the trans community further splitting apart until it can't hold itself together anymore. Maybe that would be for the better or the worse, I don't know.

Quote from: SeptagonScars on January 24, 2018, 01:56:02 PM

Roll: I understand what you're saying, but that we can't agree on the terminology is exactly the issue here. And that is also what would be important to sort out or I think there's a high risk of the trans community further splitting apart until it can't hold itself together anymore. Maybe that would be for the better or the worse, I don't know.

Unfortunately, while there are attempts at establishing definitions, I think this is quite a bit more than terminology at issue in this thread since many posts are focused on establishing a nuance (the requirement or lack thereof of dysphoria) and not the term itself, without clearly establishing the definition they are going off in the first place. That's the problem with the entire argument even in a broader sense, because a matter of semantics should never be something that devalues another, and we are doing just that in a classic "cart before horse" scenario.

Whether it's possible to come to one commonly accepted definition of transgender in the first place is a different matter, and I think that is well beyond what we can hope to accomplish here. (Hence my poor attempt at diffusion.) Though having said that, it occurred to me there are the "official Susan's definitions" somewhere around here that at least as far as forum is concerned we should stick to most likely. 

Regardless, I think I'm going to take Devlyn's cue and bow out of this thread. I've said more than my piece at this point. Kinnnnnnnnnda regret posting in it to begin with.

lots of people generally, especially in the queer community given the inherent counter culture element, explicitly and implicity shrug labels off as patriarchal and  some attempt to box one into some normative category. while there is a time and place to resist labels and deconstruct terminology, all the energy spent doing this is largely disingenuous. The insistence in being called a women, being refered to by the proper pronoun, being called by a new name, being upset at wrong queer designations like transgender or transexual.

Fundamentally, humans need words to bring order to chaos of experiences. Words matter. Insisting one be allowed to go with how they feel results in words meaning different things and ultimately becoming meaningless. The word once described a particular experience, now its a go-to term for experiences in general and now noone has a way of communicating the experience theyre having.

Granted, this is how languages evolve but its not an excuse. Those of us now without meaniful terms to communicate our experience because they've been watered down are frustrated and maybe even ostracized for not going along with the new blanket definitions.

it becomes a new normativity, a new patriarchal system that now we have to fight and contend with. 

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Quote from: Roll on January 24, 2018, 03:02:07 PM
Unfortunately, while there are attempts at establishing definitions, I think this is quite a bit more than terminology at issue in this thread since many posts are focused on establishing a nuance (the requirement or lack thereof of dysphoria) and not the term itself, without clearly establishing the definition they are going off in the first place. That's the problem with the entire argument even in a broader sense, because a matter of semantics should never be something that devalues another, and we are doing just that in a classic "cart before horse" scenario.

Whether it's possible to come to one commonly accepted definition of transgender in the first place is a different matter, and I think that is well beyond what we can hope to accomplish here. (Hence my poor attempt at diffusion.) Though having said that, it occurred to me there are the "official Susan's definitions" somewhere around here that at least as far as forum is concerned we should stick to most likely. 

Regardless, I think I'm going to take Devlyn's cue and bow out of this thread. I've said more than my piece at this point. Kinnnnnnnnnda regret posting in it to begin with.

Fair enough, and I understand that just arguing semantics doesn't really lead to anything good. But it seems to be very linked to the issue what the words mean and who fits under the label and who doesn't, cause it depends on what everyone thinks the words mean. Either way though, I understand your decision to bow out of this thread. I'm sure I'll see you around in other threads. I think your opinions did contribute to the discussion though.

The term "dysphoria" seems to suffer from a bit of circular logic. Every "symptom" of being transgender is labeled "dysphoria" even which it's quite clear that the mechanisms can't possibly be the same. For example, pubertal onset chronic hormonal depression is called "dysphoria", phantom penis is called "dysphoria", and anxiety triggered by misgendering is called "dysphoria". These are all transgender symptoms but they certainly are not all the same thing.

We obviously need a way to talk about dysphoria and distinguish it from other crap that we deal with like transphobia, homophobia, sexism, hostility towards GNC people. Feeling boxed in by a societal gender role is not a unique experience to transgender people and the cure for THAT is NOT taking a pill! (Decades of coercive psychiatric procedures to the contrary.)

But there is a continuing confusion factor with talking about our experiences this way. So frequently I see a young person post to trans forums that they think they're trans but they don't have dysphoria. Then they describe their experiences, ABC XYZ and other trans people say, "hey ABC isn't dysphoria but XYZ is, you DO have dysphoria". I'm not saying that the other trans posters are gaslighting the OP or trying to "trans" them or whatever; in fact, I agree with the other posters' opinions on what is dysphoria and what isn't. But that's the tricky thing--clearly you have a failure of communication of what dysphoria even is.

Frankly I think dysphoria is difficult to describe and understand because it's a bunch of psychological and neurological stuff that is mostly acting on parts of our brain too primitive for language. (Much like emotions, which can take a lot of training to verbalize and a lot of that verbalization is in metaphor, which can become a barrier to communication. Take the way people use the word "love" ... it's about 100 times worse than "dysphoria" for ambiguity and confusion.)

The other barrier to understanding dysphoria is that it's chronic, and with any chronic condition your conscious brain starts to filter it out and it becomes the baseline to your existence. How many people on their transition journey have expressed in retrospect how completely messed up their "normal" was? That they thought other people were just as confused and miserable and messed up and were just lying about it and putting on a front? That they were so numbed out they just didn't feel anything?

This is the problem with the conversation about trans and dysphoria. Dysphoria can be as difficult to recognize as the nose on your face. Your logical brain doesn't have a good grasp on it, and you just don't see the things that are there all the time. So many people find this conversation on gender and get obsessed with it but can't perceive their own dysphoria, making the talk about "dysphoria or else" very unhelpful.

And let's turn this cube over to yet another side. "Dysphoria" is actually short for, I guess, "gender dysphoria". Okay, there are other forms of "dysphoria" in psychology. Many of the (relatively tiny number of people) who attempt to transition for the wrong reasons and desist are in fact suffering from dysphoria. They are looking for a way to heal their dysphoria and when they see trans people getting cured they fixate on that because they want to be happy and get better too! And it's not always easy for therapists to disambiguate these conditions since so many trans people when untreated have comorbid mental illnesses from depression to depersonalization disorders.

It's funny how things run around back to the beginning. Back in the gatekeeping days, therapists used to push the RLE--an often cruel trial by fire for folks that were forced to draw all the scorn of a transphobic society just to prove they wanted hormones bad enough. Yet it seems like perhaps the most conservative treatment option in today's world would be to advise the individual who is confused about their gender to just go ahead and try new pronouns and a new name and see how they feel about it. And maybe there's room now in some spaces where this is a reasonable option. (Of course I wouldn't suggest this to someone with severe, persistent physical dysphoria--I'd suggest they try hormones for a few weeks or months and see how they respond to them--however there are so many people who are quite unable to make sense of what they're feeling, at least at first.)

Greetings all,

I think this has been a really good discussion. I do not agree with all that has been posted but that is the beauty of a forum like this. We don't all have to agree. When I read the first post, then the next 5 and so on right to the end (as of this moment) I had points I wanted to make. The weird thing is that at least 5 or more members posted a part of the points I wanted to make. So I really don't have to make it. However, I might do kind of a recap from my point of view.

I think Michelle P's description was closest to my own. When I hit the severe depression spot, I looked back. I assumed I was a cross dresser, because I did not have the normal narrative. I had happy moments, no trauma or abuse, I didn't "know I was a girl" since little. I ran across an article on line called, "That was dysphoria?" For me that was the key. I finally realized some things and kept researching. So here is what I have found to be my relative truth:

-dysphoria is a sense of discomfort. That was the definition I found. In retrospect, while I had happy moments I was just "off" all my life. I too think far too many people use the word dysphoria to mean whatever they want. Strongly felt emotions are not dysphoria. They are anxiety, shame, depression, rage....You're all smart enough, you get my drift. Pet peeve of mine is people saying they are having a dysphoric day when all the others have been good(after starting transition-whatever that  means to you). Maybe it is, but maybe the day just sucks. Everybody has bad days. Even happy, non-dysphoric people.

-like Michelle, it took me a long time to realize that everyone else did not feel the way I do. I just assumed what was diagnosed as severe depression was how everyone felt.

-words evolve. The words and their use of the 60's and 70's have evolved. Truthfully, even words from about 3 years ago have evolved. As much as we try to define and keep up with them, human societies and cultures will see to it that it will shift. The Strongest example was hearing Kate Bornstein(okay, they are on one of the radical edges about some thing) say that the culture of San Francisco 60s-70s, "->-bleeped-<-" was born as a word they used as a nickname for transsexuals. Not the meaning it has now. I am even taking a risk using that word as it both triggers some people and is pretty much a word that as a moderator, I have been instructed to edit. I hope all see the use of this example for what it is.

There is a lot more I could drone on about but I have to go teach and drone on to my students. I think most transgender people do have some form of dysphoria or they would not have an urge to change. If they are rebelling to be different, it is still a form of dysphoria. It just may not last.

I do not to belittle anyone or suggest their feelings are not valid. These are my points of view today at this time.

I'm not much of a biter just in case anyone is worried. Unless you act with no consideration.

Warmly,

Jacqui