Any thoughts on how to gracefully delve into the realm of socializing with other women as a woman and not a man?  I have 41 years of male socialization to unravel and there are ways that I have learned to interact with men that I am sure won't be well received with women.  For instance men insult each other as a matter of course and all laugh about it all in good fun (so long as it really is all in good fun).  I am sure women don't do that....so what do they do?  What unspoken rules are there?  I am not presenting as a woman yet, but I think I can get started in this realm innocuously with co-workers and some acquaintances. 

I guess the flip side of that, how do women interact with MEN?  It just occurred to me that that will have to change as well.  I probably don't want to seem like just one of the guys to other men, notwithstanding however my sexual orientation will end up (currently attracted to females). 


         Thanks,
                   Julie

I think I have an advantage over some.  I pick my grandson up at school.  I have become friends with the many mothers there. 
It's a matter of looking them in the eyes with a smile on your face...... and a willingness to talk!

While you are not yet presenting as female, use the time to observe how women interact.

When passing strangers, such as on a sidewalk, in a mall, or even in a washroom, women as more likely to make eye contact and smile at each other.  It is like the secret handshake of the women's club.  Not always, but if a woman catches your eye and smiles at you, look her in the eye and smile back.  Note that this only applies when you are presenting as female!  It's creepy if you are presenting as male.  Don't make eye contact with men unless it is someone you know personally or you need to speak to them about something.

When a social group divides itself into a men's group and a women's group, sit with the women.  Just talk about whatever they talk about.  They say that women interrupt less and talk over each  other less than men, but I haven't found that so much.  For many, that is true, but some women can be severe motormouths, and the only way for anyone else to get a word in edgewise is to talk over them.  But be careful doing so, as it will be seen as a masculine trait.

In mixed company, listen when men talk, or at least pretend to (even if what they say is nonsense), but don't laugh at dirty jokes, even if they are funny.  On the other hand, if no men are present, women's humour can be just as raunchy, in which case, join in and have fun.

Quote from: KathyLauren on February 01, 2018, 09:08:54 AM
While you are not yet presenting as female, use the time to observe how women interact.

When passing strangers, such as on a sidewalk, in a mall, or even in a washroom, women as more likely to make eye contact and smile at each other.  It is like the secret handshake of the women's club.  Not always, but if a woman catches your eye and smiles at you, look her in the eye and smile back.  Note that this only applies when you are presenting as female!  It's creepy if you are presenting as male.  Don't make eye contact with men unless it is someone you know personally or you need to speak to them about something.

When a social group divides itself into a men's group and a women's group, sit with the women.  Just talk about whatever they talk about.  They say that women interrupt less and talk over each  other less than men, but I haven't found that so much.  For many, that is true, but some women can be severe motormouths, and the only way for anyone else to get a word in edgewise is to talk over them.  But be careful doing so, as it will be seen as a masculine trait.

In mixed company, listen when men talk, or at least pretend to (even if what they say is nonsense), but don't laugh at dirty jokes, even if they are funny.  On the other hand, if no men are present, women's humour can be just as raunchy, in which case, join in and have fun.

Thank you for the advice.  I for one will put it into practice as I "mature" as a woman

Quote from: KathyLauren on February 01, 2018, 09:08:54 AM
While you are not yet presenting as female, use the time to observe how women interact.

When passing strangers, such as on a sidewalk, in a mall, or even in a washroom, women as more likely to make eye contact and smile at each other.  It is like the secret handshake of the women's club.  Not always, but if a woman catches your eye and smiles at you, look her in the eye and smile back.  Note that this only applies when you are presenting as female!  It's creepy if you are presenting as male.

Maybe it's my smile, but I never get the impression the women think I'm creepy.  We even put together play dates for the kids to play while we have coffee.

Even women who are strangers have pleasant conversations with me, with direct eye contact.

Maybe finding one trusted women to practice could be a good start. For me a good start was always to discuss nail polish, makeup and fashion.

I had one very nice coworker (she was also the first to know at work) and we mostly chatted over communicator. This was my first dive into girl talk and very helpful. She has been a great coach to me and I am glad I picked her :-) By now they have fully accepted me, I even got read into the "corporate black list" (the list of men you do not want to be in a room alone with, very sad that it exists but it seems to be everywhere).

Now it is super easy. I also noticed that most of my cis female neighbors accepted me almost immediately into the group of girls and I did get the full download of their girl problems (who had what kind of beauty secret not even their husbands know about). Women in general are way more accepting and willing to be inclusive.

These days it is just natural. I even started a "girls only" chat group for my current work assignment :-)

Good luck! it is very rewarding...

I find this gets easier over time.  It might start as saying hi, then small talk, then more.  Have a bit of eye contact.  Don't be afraid to put your foot in your mouth.  I never make fun of anyone except myself.  I find kids, pets, and home crafts are all easy topics that open doors too.  I'm no genius at this, just tryjng to find my way like you are.  These things helped me.

Bari Jo

I gave up trying to figure out how I would have acted as a cis woman and just be natural.  You're trans woman, and therefore a woman... so speak as yourself and you're speaking as a woman.

After taking voice training and countless hours of people watching...  What I have found is 1). Harbor less self doubt and speak with people as if you don't consider their opinion of you.  If you're questioning your gender, then you're going to convey to them to do the same  2). Speak with other women as a peer, rather than an outsider or a suitor...  Men "Posture" in conversations, women are more relaxed and "engaged" in the conversation.  As part of voice training, they should introduce you to mannerisms and speech patterns typical of the female gender.  It all comes back to being comfortable and relaxed in the conversation.  3). What you say isn't nearly as important as how you deliver your thoughts.  Women can be just as raunchy as men, if not more so.  Women are not as prim and proper as you believe them to be from a man's perspective.  I have spent enough hours in the ladies' locker room at pole dancing to attest to that.  If you're engaged in the conversation, you'll see the cues to where their conversations are going.  4). You will never pass as genuine person if you censor everything you say.  Your personality comes through in your word choice and topics of conversation.  Don't hide who you are in the conversation.  You may make a few acquaintances, but you won't make any real friends.  Consistently censoring your speech to "what is and is not" feminine will come across as less than genuine and goes back to point #2.  You're not going to be relaxed or enguaged in the conversation with your mind elsewhere.

Be yourself, speak from the heart... The more you elaborate on your thoughts, and the more descriptive you are with your stories will set you apart as female.  Its not necessarily the topic, but the delivery that is key.  Men speak in short direct sentences, women will elaborate on responses and keep the conversation going...  Bottom line, be yourself and you'll be fine. 

Quote from: Harley Quinn on February 01, 2018, 10:33:06 AM
I gave up trying to figure out how I would have acted as a cis woman and just be natural.  You're trans woman, and therefore a woman... so speak as yourself and you're speaking as a woman.

After taking voice training and countless hours of people watching...  What I have found is 1). Harboring less self doubt and speak with people as if you don't consider their opinion of you.  If you're questioning your gender, then you're going to convey to them to do the same  2). Speak with other women as a peer, rather than an outsider or a suitor...  Men "Posture" in conversations, women are more relaxed and "engaged" in the conversation.  As part of voice training, they should introduce you to mannerisms and speech patterns typical of the female gender.  It all comes back to being comfortable and relaxed in the conversation.  3). What you say isn't nearly as important as how you deliver your thoughts.  Women can be just as raunchy as men, if not more so.  Women are not as prim and proper as you believe them to be from a man's perspective.  I have spent enough hours in the ladies' locker room at pole dancing to attest to that.  If you're engaged in the conversation, you'll see the cues to where their conversations are going.  4). You will never pass as genuine person if you censor everything you say.  Your personality comes through in your word choice and topics of conversation.  Don't hide who you are in the conversation.  You may make a few acquaintances, but you won't make any real friends.  Consistently censoring your speech to "what is and is not" feminine will come across as less than genuine and goes back to point #2.  You're not going to be relaxed or enguaged in the conversation with your mind elsewhere.

Be yourself, speak from the heart... The more you elaborate on your thoughts, and the more descriptive you are with your stories will set you apart as female.  Its not necessarily the topic, but the delivery that is key.  Men speak in short direct sentences, women will elaborate on responses and keep the conversation going...  Bottom line, be yourself and you'll be fine. 

This is all so true!  Especially the last part!

Thanks.  I try. 

I wanted to share one of those moments we enjoy on the journey through transition. I have struggled with enjoying any part of it so last night was a step forward for me. I went to a salon to order a different wig.

I had enjoyed myself last time to the salon but this time it was in the evening and was basically closed. Only the ladies who worked there were around. Some cleaning up and some doing each others hair. The atmosphere was so different than during the busy part of the day. There were a couple of women bantering about pensions and the stock market and one had some sincere questions. No one had any answers for her. I knew the answer but felt no compelling reason to speak up. I was just soaking it in because "it" was missing. The "a guy is here" feeling I used to feel when I would enter a room of women as a man. I was just soaking it in and enjoying the moment.

It was my first time since going full time a few weeks ago that I just felt part of the group with nothing out of the ordinary. It just felt good.

I've spent the 17 years leading up to hrt mostly interacting with women who mostly knew that I identified as female. In particular my lesbian acquaintances were really good on coaching me what things are real tells of masculine behavior, most of which they interpreted as the accustomed expression of privilege. Obviously mansplaining and talking over others would be high on the list of things to try to avoid.

That many years of trying while still being influenced by testosterone have made it so I found as soon as i announced I was transitioning my relationships with women quickly pivoted. I've felt accepted into the club, I don't hesitate to talk about "women's" intimate stuff - sex, relationships, hormones, body image etc ... well with anyone relatively new to me of course I'm gauging comfort and intimacy first.

Since transition I've paid attention to some of the more detailed stuff. Women make eye contact more often, face each other directly when talking -- men tend to face indirectly, projecting energy to the side of whoever they're talking to. Smiling is another big one.

I think the most important however --- and imo / imx women on average score better in this --- is just better communication. Women are more likely to listen to each other, hear what's said and empathize with problems rather than go into "fix it" mode. I don't care if this is perceived as sexist, it's been my observation. And it's not that there aren't characteristic problems in interacting with women, a tendency to passive-aggressive behaviors would be high on the list.

I'm also pretty picky about minimizing interaction with people I don't feel can communicate in healthy ways, this is just a protective thing that helps keep me mentally healthy.

I find women's intramural conversations to be more desultory and less focused than the fraternal conversations of men and therefore more fun and playful.  In groups, as a new woman, I tend to default to being more the listener than the advancer of a conversation.  Also, I'm always listening closely to the art of female conversation which helps me to improve my femme voice.  Also, I actually listen to the pitch of female voices and use that almost like a tuning fork to modulate my own pitch.

But like Harley says, the best advice is always to just be yourself.  Tell your story.

For instance I was talking with a couple of other women recently and the conversation turned to menopause.  I joked, "Well, I don't have to worry about that."  Instead of being awkward it was an ice breaker and made all parties feel more comfortable as we continued sharing our stories. As women.

I think that we are much worse than men at talking over each other, it just doesn't bother us as much. My observation anyway.

Ask questions, be engaged. We LISTEN to each other and respond. You can change direction, we all do, but if she is talking about her sister, listen, ask questions, then when she is winding down you can move on. Somebody will, we go through many topics generally. As in all such interactions, shared interests go a long way. Family, cooking, men, clothes, Twilight, Mr Darcy, hair, diet, her brother's wife's father's illness, cats as opposed to dogs, your boyfriend snoring and on and on. Men sometimes find our conversations inane, in my opinion their conversations are no better. I guess that it is just what we find interesting. No, we do not insult each other. We are not trying to be funny usually I am not sure why. We share humor in our talk, we do laugh a lot, but it is not the same thing. I laugh with my friends, my boyfriend makes me laugh. We are not all hugs and kisses though but men are more direct about it. I never realized your feet were so wide. No, you don't HAVE to make something if you don't have time, just go buy it. My boyfriend can listen to two women going at each other and never realize it. Really? They sounded like close friends.

There was a time when I no longer fit in with men, just always awkward and left out, but I was so afraid to be myself around women. Turns out the weird me that didn't fit in with men had a place where it was normal. The world is right now.

It's a level of who we are, where we are comfortable and were we see our transition going. There are no right answers.

I heard a story once about a woman who had waited to talk to a famous concert pianist after a concert. She gushed with praise about how well he played and stated how she would give her life to play as well as him. He said simply.
I did.
Then walked away.

This takes effort, how much is for us to decide. No wrong answers, just different lives lived.
You don't have to hang out with women, I have a sister that doesn't, if you want to though I feel that the best chance of that happening is to be like them. Do what they do and the wolf will become the lamb. The wolf will not be a wolf anymore though, that is the trade off. Doesn't mean you can't be a friggin fierce lamb though. 😁

I wish I could help but I just talk the way I always have. I guess it's perceived feminine like?

I get that you were trying to pass as male and joined in on typical stuff associated with this gender. If I can just say, try to seperate from this "male dominated identity" and you should get your answer. What/who are you left with?

I don't think there's anything wrong with a female being masculine. I just never was and yes that's innate. I wish sometimes I could be rougher, I envy men for their assertiveness sometimes. I can be too but I never in 27 years was preceived as a particularly masucline man's man. I do like to act and do theatre but it would be very awkward if I tried lol


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Ugh! I need to focus better, I don't think that I answered your question at all. Just ran my mouth.

Yes, if you change your interactions with women AND men will change.

Just do it, and constantly watch their reactions. In the beginning they will be conservatively optimistic, giving you the chance and keeping an eye out for male behavior. They will react when you step away from typical female behavior, that is your que to pay attention and learn. You have to be looking for it though, a slight pull back and cooling. It will happen I am sure, you just have to keep at it.

I was playing earlier but being truthful, you are the people that you hang around. Choose your friends carefully right? It is an oversimplification but that is the core of it. Be with the people that you want to be like, some things are that simple and this is one of them.

You do have to work at it though, if you act like a guy they will never let you in. Bravado is neither needed nor wanted. Most women don't curse much. Er...

Gotta go, sorry. Good luck!

Don't worry about fitting in or trying to act like a cis woman. My advice is at first to listen to the girls you're hanging out with.  You will find that if you are a good listener they will open up to you.  The problem with men is that they think they have to comment on everything.

I fell into an easy conversation with a student last night after class, mostly talking about women at the university and what departments are relatively male / female dominated. We also talked about activism in the current political climate.

It's very good for me to be simply taken for one of the girls. I live and work in a really fine community and appreciate that I have this even without the benefit of passing.

Those of us that have been full time no longer even think about "how to interact". I think the only subject that makes me uncomfortable is children and childbirth, since I have never experienced either, and never will.

That is something that gets easier with time.

Before I was full time, I would often just observe woman and how they interact, when I was full time and I started making female friends, I let them lead the conservation.

I felt a little uncomfortable the first time one of my friends brought up periods, but women do all experience this and it will be brought up at some time. I did feel a little left out, as that is something I never experienced.

Now I have a close group of female friends and we talk about everything from the weather to sex.. I am treated like one of the girls (ok to be fair most of them have no idea I was born a boy).