In my case I have found the first thing was stopping the defensive male posturing you don't have to claim your space as you do with men this comes naturally to me growing up as the only "boy ?" I learned to switch my way of approaching people depending on the situation now the male mode has been put on the shelf even at work where it is mostly men I find myself changing my approach to a more natural feminine way but I digress be less aggressive  in your speech and mannerisms feeling are more important than bare facts dont try to dominate the conversation,women are more subtle when they want to change the topic to their own let it flow listen more than you speak especially early on and be quietly confident
    when women meet on the street, in the store or mall in passing it is eye contact and a smile  when men do this it is no eye contact and a nod whether meeting men or women do not nod women do not nod they smile I found this one of the more difficult changes keep in mind these and other giveaways and in time you will be fitting in in any situation  after all you are a woman

     bobbisue

When I transitioned I found myself talking to woman mostly and reduced talking to guys . Subject matter is cloths, hair, nails, shoes and boots, jewelry, family and guys.

Guys tend to talk about sports, cars, eating and women. When you they talk abut it woman it is usually about some form of sex or desire about sex. I think guys need to be the best at what they talk about. Woman tend to be more about sharing.

I ask questions about my outfit, makeup, bag, guys and such. Oh food is a good topic too. I enjoy conversations with my female friends and do not feel one upped. Listen and learn the tempo when to talk. Conversations are a two way street.

I really enjoy and look forward to my conversations with woman.

I just have to respond again. I don't mean to offend anyone, but isn't this a non issue? I mean, all the problems we have/go through and then we add this to everything? It's further boxing us in with how we "should" speak and interact... this just makes me realize why I didn't want to transition for years. We're not carictures. Just be you!

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Quote from: Allison S on February 03, 2018, 10:09:00 PM
I just have to respond again. I don't mean to offend anyone, but isn't this a non issue? I mean, all the problems we have/go through and then we add this to everything? It's further boxing us in with how we "should" speak and interact... this just makes me realize why I didn't want to transition for years. We're not carictures. Just be you!

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Well said, also I just have to say the usually the more you interact with a certain crowd the more you pick up naturally the characteristics and language and you use it subconsciously 

Quote from: Allison S on February 03, 2018, 10:09:00 PM
I just have to respond again. I don't mean to offend anyone, but isn't this a non issue? I mean, all the problems we have/go through and then we add this to everything? It's further boxing us in with how we "should" speak and interact... this just makes me realize why I didn't want to transition for years. We're not carictures. Just be you!

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

I agree that you must be yourself this is more about helping overcome the fear of doing just that by having some knowledge of the mistakes made by others and having a little more confidence to go out and be yourself having been outed just 2 months ago these experiences are fresh in my mind as someone who has been able to talk to women as friends easier than as a regular guy I still find this a challenge, for those who have not this must be very daunting,  socializing with other women is a huge part of transitioning and should not be under estimated

     bobbisue

  ps no offence taken or implied just a difference of perspective

Hi Julie!!!

All will be well sister!... I wanted to jump right in and test the waters of socializing with women a little ways into transition and I joined a bunch of local women's meetup groups and made a lot of very close and treasured friendships... They took me right in and being trans wasn't even a factor at all which felt great... As has been mentioned... be a good listener and jump in when you are comfortable... I noticed one aspect to interacting is that we lack all the touchstones of girlhood and young womanhood but you will do fine!,,... just be you!!!!😀

Onward we go brave sister!!!

Ashley 😀❤️🌻

Quote from: Allison S on February 03, 2018, 10:09:00 PM
I just have to respond again. I don't mean to offend anyone, but isn't this a non issue? I mean, all the problems we have/go through and then we add this to everything? It's further boxing us in with how we "should" speak and interact... this just makes me realize why I didn't want to transition for years. We're not carictures. Just be you!

I understand why you would feel that way. Certainly being yourself is supposed to be the core of why we transition and to go through this and not be true to yourself seems ludicrous.

This is the MtF transsexual forum and my belief, why I am here, is because I want to be a woman. All of it, I always have. And this particular part of this site is all about that specifically right?

When I was a child I interacted with girls easily, it was natural in a way that interacting with boys never was. In an effort to try to be "normal" for the next 30 years that easy connection slipped away, use it or lose it I guess. Not just the different experience we have had than women but the different ways that males and females behave socially. I was so stressed as I bridged that social gap, more a fear that I would never fit in. It did all come back though. I still come here to help others to go through what I already have and that includes this social interaction. I have a friend who is autistic, she can't interact easily with women or men and has spent her life alone, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I know that there are people that prefer to live that way but I don't think that it is a high percentage of the population, there is a reason that solitary confinement in prison is considered the wort form of punishment and inhuman by many.

So with all of that we throw in one more variable, the end of being "one of the boys". Maybe it is possible to transition fully and maintain our position with the boys but I wasn't able to. For me it was a mutual parting of ways but even had I wished to stay in the club it would not have been possible. That was with guys that I had known for decades. I have had them say, "Come on Michelle, you know that you are always welcome with us." And go on with you guys treating me like I somehow have misplaced my brain with becoming a woman, no thank you. They had shut me out completely, I could hang out with them, just please could I keep my opinions to myself?

There was a few months to maybe a year that I was miserable because I didn't feel like I fit in anywhere. Then the women, who I had been afraid of messing up around, accepted me as one of them and I had to learn the stuff we are discussing in this thread.

It's not how we "should" be, but a natural conclusion, part of the end result, of being a woman. It doesn't "have" to be but it is strong current to swim against. I don't mind the effort of taking my own path but this IS my path, finally. This IS me. I would have thought that I was individual enough, unique enough not to be a caricature but if that is what I am, so be it. I have finally reached happy.

There aren't "hard and fast rules" but if you are are shy to begin with, you have less to worry about around women since they are (usually) much more conversational/will share much more in a discussion... you'll probably find it easier to socialize with them off the bat because they'll kind of "help the conversation along" far more than men do. They're more likely to help you out and volunteer useful information if you find yourself unsure of something and admit that you are. There's much less emphasis on being openly crass or openly competitive or humorous, a much higher chance of someone filling in any awkward silences, someone agreeing with you about something, or actually going into detail about how they feel about something... you'll probably find common ground quickly just in terms of wanting to feel relaxed and understood.

The only main "unspoken rule" is that unlike many men, women aren't allergic to touching each other or being in close proximity. Which if you're used to the way men treat each other, can be unnerving at first, but it's nearly always meant well. 

Kylo, it is uncanny how you always say what I would like to say if I could put the words together right. 😆 I am all, blah, blah, blah-de-blah, blah, on and on, then I read your comments and it's like, YES! That's what I meant. 😊 I always appreciate your comments.

Ohhhh! The awkward silence. Yes, before my guy friends would make fun of me about that. You are worse than my wife, can never be quiet at all. Argh! It's not quiet, it's weird! How can you stand it?! Six silent guys in a room just sitting there, thinking what I have no idea, it is physically painful for me to even watch. I don't have to talk but someone better before I freak out.

Whew! Glad I got that out, it has bothered me most of my life.

Quote from: FinallyMichelle on February 04, 2018, 08:00:23 AM
I understand why you would feel that way. Certainly being yourself is supposed to be the core of why we transition and to go through this and not be true to yourself seems ludicrous.

This is the MtF transsexual forum and my belief, why I am here, is because I want to be a woman. All of it, I always have. And this particular part of this site is all about that specifically right?

When I was a child I interacted with girls easily, it was natural in a way that interacting with boys never was. In an effort to try to be "normal" for the next 30 years that easy connection slipped away, use it or lose it I guess. Not just the different experience we have had than women but the different ways that males and females behave socially. I was so stressed as I bridged that social gap, more a fear that I would never fit in. It did all come back though. I still come here to help others to go through what I already have and that includes this social interaction. I have a friend who is autistic, she can't interact easily with women or men and has spent her life alone, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I know that there are people that prefer to live that way but I don't think that it is a high percentage of the population, there is a reason that solitary confinement in prison is considered the wort form of punishment and inhuman by many.

So with all of that we throw in one more variable, the end of being "one of the boys". Maybe it is possible to transition fully and maintain our position with the boys but I wasn't able to. For me it was a mutual parting of ways but even had I wished to stay in the club it would not have been possible. That was with guys that I had known for decades. I have had them say, "Come on Michelle, you know that you are always welcome with us." And go on with you guys treating me like I somehow have misplaced my brain with becoming a woman, no thank you. They had shut me out completely, I could hang out with them, just please could I keep my opinions to myself?

There was a few months to maybe a year that I was miserable because I didn't feel like I fit in anywhere. Then the women, who I had been afraid of messing up around, accepted me as one of them and I had to learn the stuff we are discussing in this thread.

It's not how we "should" be, but a natural conclusion, part of the end result, of being a woman. It doesn't "have" to be but it is strong current to swim against. I don't mind the effort of taking my own path but this IS my path, finally. This IS me. I would have thought that I was individual enough, unique enough not to be a caricature but if that is what I am, so be it. I have finally reached happy.

I don't mean anything is wrong with caricatures either! It's great entertainment and needed too. I just think some can unknownigly become one and that's not their intention. We all fumble- that's how we learn right? I've seen your posts and you really make a lot of sense. I know you reached a point that you needed to and I think that's incredible. Keep it up!

Kylo, you're right there's easeness talking with a group of females. Men, generally, are closed off in a stoic way. It's just a concept of masculinity but guys are sensitive.

I think this is a great topic! I needed to let my views out too I mean we experience both genders so we know some stuff.

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In my previous life, I always felt so closed off and alone by the veil of male pretense that is always in place in guy to guy communication... The main thrust of male communication is to convey information and establish status while female communication is more aligned with communication of feelings and connections...

Deborah Tannen's books on communication are illuminating, That's Not What I Meant! is about how men and women attempt to make themselves understood.  I really enjoyed her book on women's relationships.  Why Gender Matters by Leonard Sax has lots of interesting insights on the differences between male and female.  Women take insults quite seriously, sometimes never forgetting slights; men will playfully jab and even physically confront one another, and all will be forgotten in the aftermath.  To this day I just don't respond when men do this; I'd never understood why I couldn't shrug off insults like I should, until I discovered who I am.

My suggestions are to be a good listener, make long eye contact, smile, and "use your hands" as you talk.  Body language is important.

Do not typically provide detailed solutions to any problems stated, just listen more, and if you have them, talk about your related experiences.  Oh, did I say to listen?

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on February 04, 2018, 03:06:03 PM
My suggestions are to be a good listener, make long eye contact, smile, and "use your hands" as you talk.  Body language is important.

Do not typically provide detailed solutions to any problems stated, just listen more, and if you have them, talk about your related experiences.  Oh, did I say to listen?

Chrissy

          Oh, I am guilty of offering solutions.  As a guy the answer frequently seems so simple..."ok, lets try something else," or "we'll go to the store and buy a new one," or whatever the shortest path to some satisfactory resolution is.  It is something I have struggled with in interactions with women.  Will seeing the emotional side of things be easier on HRT?  Will estrogen cure my insanity, or at least help seeing the other side of things?

          -Julie

Quote from: transgenx on February 04, 2018, 04:03:24 PM
            Will seeing the emotional side of things be easier on HRT?  Will estrogen cure my insanity, or at least help seeing the other side of things?

          -Julie

Oh Yeah!!!!... 😀!!!

Much that is amazing awaits you on HRT.... I found the mental changes profound as did many of us here... it is an amazing wild ride of self discovery and revelations.... it is a bit of an emotional rollercoaster but to me, it is feeling life as it was supposed to be experienced... After all, don't people ride rollercoasters to feel... really alive!!!??? 😀

All will be well Julie! ...Enjoy the ride and every moment!!!

Hugs!!!

Ashley 😀❤️🌻

Quote from: transgenx on February 01, 2018, 08:50:01 AM
Any thoughts on how to gracefully delve into the realm of socializing with other women as a woman and not a man?

Honestly it's very similar to how you would as a man, but be much more empathetic to their viewpoint. What helped me out to get in touch with other women were active social groups - just as men would. Women just tend to be much more involved emotionally and it's easy to "play along" when you're part of the group.

QuoteI have 41 years of male socialization to unravel and there are ways that I have learned to interact with men that I am sure won't be well received with women.  For instance men insult each other as a matter of course and all laugh about it all in good fun (so long as it really is all in good fun).  I am sure women don't do that....so what do they do?

It happens a lot less - at least in front of each other. A lot of women do tend to undermine each other behind each other's backs, which is much more mean. If you do this, expect to lose many friends.

QuoteWhat unspoken rules are there?  I am not presenting as a woman yet, but I think I can get started in this realm innocuously with co-workers and some acquaintances.

The face to face insulting woman-to-woman is pretty much unseen. Doing the above will also get you into trouble, but won't out you as a transwoman... but definitely as a jerk. 

QuoteI guess the flip side of that, how do women interact with MEN?  It just occurred to me that that will have to change as well.  I probably don't want to seem like just one of the guys to other men, notwithstanding however my sexual orientation will end up (currently attracted to females).

For guy friends - this goes back to more of the "guy talk" you probably experienced. Men seem to like a girl that can "stick with the guys," as in the face to face play insults. No matter what the case men do see you now as an option for dating, regardless of how slim the chance. You just need to be aware of when this happens, and really only experience will tell you.

I hope this helped!

Thanks and5678, those were some pretty insightful answers. 

Quote from: Kylo on February 04, 2018, 08:24:36 AM
They're more likely to help you out and volunteer useful information if you find yourself unsure of something and admit that you are. There's much less emphasis on being openly crass or openly competitive or humorous, a much higher chance of someone filling in any awkward silences, someone agreeing with you about something, or actually going into detail about how they feel about something... you'll probably find common ground quickly just in terms of wanting to feel relaxed and understood.

Wow. I was already doing all of this before I transitioned. Probably why I never, ever fit in as "one of the guys."  But then again I hung out with a lot of gay guys too.

I felt like its easy to talk to women. In highschool I would think of my female friends as sisters and talk to them about whats going on with them, current shows, goals/dreams, video games if they play. Also Disney movies. Who doesn't like Disney movies?

Quote from: sarah1972 on February 01, 2018, 09:28:17 AM
Maybe finding one trusted women to practice could be a good start. For me a good start was always to discuss nail polish, makeup and fashion.

If it ever happens for me, I think this is how it will start. I have a cis female co-worker that I'm simpatico with, and we've discussed her giving me a clinic on eye makeup ("mascara" is a curse word in my vocabulary).

But, truth to tell, I've never socialized well. I tend to be an outsider even among outsiders. The subject has come up with my gender therapist; it seems pretty clear that it comes from years of psychological abuse in childhood and a fundamental mistrust of others. By now, although I can compensate to some degree superficially, the core problem remains; and, at my age, it's unlikely to change.

Since coming out to myself, I've envisioned my remaining years living the life of a solitary older woman; and I'm content with that, more or less. I plan on having contacts; but friends aren't likely. When Ben Affleck's character in "The Accountant" explains that he has difficulty socializing with other people, he pauses, and in a rare moment of openness adds, "I want to," the longing in his soul goes through me like a knife. I can relate.