I'm not religious so this is purely academic for me, but we get a lot of poor souls in a situation where their particular church feels that transition is a sin and I wanted to raise a question.

Can you be baptised a second time to absolve you of your past sins? The first time you were baptised could you consider this a baptism under false pretences seeing as you were represented as the wrong gender? After transitioning could you be baptised again helping to remove any stigma of that transition in your churches eyes?

Does the hormones in my bath water count?

Quote from: lisagurl on March 10, 2008, 04:30:25 PM
Does the hormones in my bath water count?

Only if you bathe in a consecrated baptismal font, Lisa.

N~

I'm not sure I really understand the question?  Are we talking about getting baptized a second time so that you're forgiven and then if someone tries to discriminate against you, you have something to point to that says you're legit?

Anyway, gender/sex doesn't really come into play during baptism (at least in the Episcopal Church), so that really wouldn't matter much (at least not to my mind) as far as the false pretenses question is concerned. 

Could you get baptized a second time?  Sure.  Would it matter to anyone in the church?  Based on the stories I've heard and the people I know?  Probably not. 

Would you be forgiven of sins?  Not really.  The sacrament of baptism is not the same thing as the sacrament of reconciliation (confession).  Baptism is more like "getting saved" whereas confession is more like "getting right" once you've "been saved".  The baptismal covenant states that the child being baptized will be raised a Christian, or if an adult, will live a Christian life.  We are baptized into the Lord's death, and thus share in His resurrection (according to the Book of Common Prayer).  The pronouncement of absolution is not done during the administration of baptism. 

Is that anywhere close to what you were looking to talk about?

Thanks for your very interesting question.  I will give you my take, and hope it will be helpful.

First of all, baptism is not what determines our gender.  Nor does it, in and of itself, grant any kind of forgiveness.  While there are a few churches who will baptize more than once, most do not.  And the reason for this is simple.

Baptism is a sign and seal of the grace that is already present.  Different churches practice this symbol differently:  Some dunk, some sprinkle, some pour.  But it is not the time of the baptism, the amount of water used, or the particular faith of the individual that make it effective.  Rather, baptism gains its significance from the grace of God to which it points.  The theologian Augustine described it as God's grace made visible, for the reason that it captures the message of cleansing, forgiveness, death and resurrection, in a way that mere words could never do.  It is much like how a master painter captures an image on a canvas, bringing understanding and beauty to a truth in life.  All churches also believe that, just as the Holy Spirit was present and active in Jesus' own baptism, so the Holy Spirit surrounds the baptized one, marking that person as a child of God, promising to continue working on that person to bring about the work of God in his/her life.

So what does any of this have to do with the question?  First, most churches would not do the second baptism.  Second, what is important  is the Holy Spirit's understanding of the person, not the human church's understanding.  I can't believe that a person's true identity would ever be a surprise to the Holy Spirit.  Third, no matter what any human institution might think, all baptism can do is point to a forgiveness that is still there, before, during, and after transition.

In my own particular church, on some important occasions, we have a service where we publicly renew our baptismal vows which were made either by us, or by our parents on our behalf.  We surround one another with prayers and love.  To me, this would be especially powerful for a transgendered person, and a wonderful symbol and teaching opportunity for the church.  In fact, it would be absolutely beautiful.

Peace!
Kristi

Well put Kristi! 

Baptism is an outward confirmation of an inter-spiritual rebirth; if someone was baptized before transitioning does not mean that it was a lie.  At that point in their lives they may have been trying to use Christianity to fix/cure themselves, I even went as far as seminary.  And once the person has fully and completely accepted themselves and if they have not been kicked out of their church I don't see why that person would not want to be re-baptized.  As a Christian goes through life and have major life changes if they feel that they would like to publicly reaffirm their dedication to Christ through baptism then they should be allowed. 

Quote from: Kristi on March 10, 2008, 06:50:56 PM
Thanks for your very interesting question.  I will give you my take, and hope it will be helpful.

First of all, baptism is not what determines our gender.  Nor does it, in and of itself, grant any kind of forgiveness.  While there are a few churches who will baptize more than once, most do not.  And the reason for this is simple.

Baptism is a sign and seal of the grace that is already present.  Different churches practice this symbol differently:  Some dunk, some sprinkle, some pour.  But it is not the time of the baptism, the amount of water used, or the particular faith of the individual that make it effective.  Rather, baptism gains its significance from the grace of God to which it points.  The theologian Augustine described it as God's grace made visible, for the reason that it captures the message of cleansing, forgiveness, death and resurrection, in a way that mere words could never do.  It is much like how a master painter captures an image on a canvas, bringing understanding and beauty to a truth in life.  All churches also believe that, just as the Holy Spirit was present and active in Jesus' own baptism, so the Holy Spirit surrounds the baptized one, marking that person as a child of God, promising to continue working on that person to bring about the work of God in his/her life.

So what does any of this have to do with the question?  First, most churches would not do the second baptism.  Second, what is important  is the Holy Spirit's understanding of the person, not the human church's understanding.  I can't believe that a person's true identity would ever be a surprise to the Holy Spirit.  Third, no matter what any human institution might think, all baptism can do is point to a forgiveness that is still there, before, during, and after transition.

In my own particular church, on some important occasions, we have a service where we publicly renew our baptismal vows which were made either by us, or by our parents on our behalf.  We surround one another with prayers and love.  To me, this would be especially powerful for a transgendered person, and a wonderful symbol and teaching opportunity for the church.  In fact, it would be absolutely beautiful.

Peace!Kristi

Kristi,

Well said.  What type of background do you have in theology?  I find your posts very thought-filled.

Chaunte

The Jewish practice of ritual bathing back during the time of Jesus was very common.  People would do it all the time..... definitely more than once.  The baptism of "John the Baptist" was such a practice.  I see no reason to not do it as often as you wish.

Now if you are asking:  Will a second baptism wash away the sin of transsexualism?  I am definitely not the one to ask on that one.  I don't believe that we are born with a sin in our mouth.  I believe that we are born clean and innocent..... even if we are transsexual, gay, straight, or any other.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 13, 2008, 10:40:34 PM
The Jewish practice of ritual bathing back during the time of Jesus was very common.  People would do it all the time..... definitely more than once.  The baptism of "John the Baptist" was such a practice.  I see no reason to not do it as often as you wish.

While this may be true, there is a very important distinction to be made.  It should also be noted that for the Jewish people, the sign of entrance into the covenant and the community of faith was not baptism, not ritual bathing, but circumcision.  While I have always seen this as problematic on the part of females, the church has, since very early days, seen baptism as the new covenant counterpart of the Jewish practice of circumcision, not of ritual baths.  While it does symbolize a cleansing from sin, it also means much more.  It is also a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.  I find it highly unlikely that anyone was ever circumcised more than once.  Baptism is a sign of entrance into the visible church, a beginning of community.   However, even the Jewish people (male and female) were called at times to renew the covenant by a "circumcision of the heart."  Should you be interested, you can see the following:
Deuteronomy 10:16
Deuteronomy 30:6
Jeremiah 4:4

There are, of course, a variety of ways of following the same general idea.  The renewal of baptismal vows I spoke about above is one example.  In fact, the possibilities are nearly endless and I am all for anyone doing what is meaningful in their spiritual pilgrimage.  However, from a mainline Christian standpoint, baptism is not the appropriate way to celebrate this particular moment.

Peace,
Kristi

That's great info Kristi.  The original poster didn't ask about Christian baptisim so I went back to the origins of the practice. And I'm sticking to that story.  <wink>

You are compassionately thorough as always.  I'm on touchy ground here because you have some idea what my beliefs are.  But it seems to me that since baptism is a covenant, I agree with you.  Once is all that is required.  It's pretty hard to "unbreak" a promise just by making a new one.  Christ's gift was the ability to relieve yourself from the consequences of sin through grace and symbolized in this baptismal practice. Doing it over and over makes little sense.

I suppose that in the good old days, multiple baptisms may have made perfect sense.  It might have been the only time these people bathed.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 13, 2008, 11:50:12 PM
That's great info Kristi.  The original poster didn't ask about Christian baptisim

If so, then I misread the post.  Sorry about that.

Cindi, I agree that one of the primary differences between the two covenants was the need for redoing things.  Under the old covenant, atonement was made annually, year after year.  Under the new covenant, the price was paid in full, "once for all."  This is another reason many churches baptize only once.

Another point to be made is that, in light of the fact that Christ's redemption of the individual is part of this new covenant, the only way for baptism to be necessary more than once would be to assert that after transition, the individual is a different person entirely.  This I do not believe.  We are the same person, pre or post transition.  God knows us intimately from the beginning.  It does not seem to me to matter whether the person was even aware of the need for transition before baptism.  God's grace is the only important thing, and that is the reality to which this symbol of baptism points.

Perhaps I should elaborate that in the reaffirmation service I have mentioned, we prepare a large basin of water.  At the bottom of the basin are a collection of polished river stones.  After renewing her or his baptismal vows, a person is invited to come forward, reach into the waters, and take a stone.  This stone is then kept, reminding the person of their baptism and the cleansing, renewing powers of God's grace.  They are invited to be prayed for, to kneel, or to stand, or to make some statement.  It is entirely an individual choice.  Some also ask for water to be placed on their heads.  A towel is provided.  It is a beautiful and meaningful time.  The primary difference is that this service points back to a time when the original vows were made, much like a couple may choose to renew their wedding vows.  The depth of the meaning of the event increases over time.


Peace,
Kristi

Kristi, I'd be proud to attend services with you some time.  As much as I rail against some religious perspectives, it's rare to find someone who is truly spiritual in practice.  You know that I always enjoy talking about the doctrine.  I hope that I never offend.

I truly wish that we could teach a class about world religions in high school.  I think that it would be so enlightening for students to understand how different religions were formed and a few basics in what they believe.  Maybe we could learn to get along a bit better.

Far too often, people don't understand the principles of their faith.  They should.  Perhaps we'd have a bit more peace and understanding in the world. 

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 14, 2008, 02:12:57 PM
Kristi, I'd be proud to attend services with you some time.  As much as I rail against some religious perspectives, it's rare to find someone who is truly spiritual in practice.  You know that I always enjoy talking about the doctrine.  I hope that I never offend.

Cindi, I think that would be awesome.  Let's just find a way to make it happen.  Of course you do not offend.  People are welcome to disagree as well.  Given what I know of your background, I find it amazing that you still want to have conversations about doctrine.  You are a heroine to me!

Kristi

Quote from: NickSister on March 10, 2008, 03:17:29 PM
I'm not religious so this is purely academic for me, but we get a lot of poor souls in a situation where their particular church feels that transition is a sin and I wanted to raise a question.

Can you be baptised a second time to absolve you of your past sins? The first time you were baptised could you consider this a baptism under false pretences seeing as you were represented as the wrong gender? After transitioning could you be baptised again helping to remove any stigma of that transition in your churches eyes?

Not in Lutheranism.  The things you mentioned would be considered unnecessary.

Quote from: Kristi on March 10, 2008, 06:50:56 PM
In my own particular church, on some important occasions, we have a service where we publicly renew our baptismal vows which were made either by us, or by our parents on our behalf.  We surround one another with prayers and love.  To me, this would be especially powerful for a transgendered person, and a wonderful symbol and teaching opportunity for the church.  In fact, it would be absolutely beautiful.

Peace!
Kristi

Yes, it is.  The Rite of Transition I put together is based on the Rite of Baptismal Renewal.

Quote from: Kristi on March 13, 2008, 11:09:19 PM

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 13, 2008, 10:40:34 PM
The Jewish practice of ritual bathing back during the time of Jesus was very common.  People would do it all the time..... definitely more than once.  The baptism of "John the Baptist" was such a practice.  I see no reason to not do it as often as you wish.

While this may be true, there is a very important distinction to be made.  It should also be noted that for the Jewish people, the sign of entrance into the covenant and the community of faith was not baptism, not ritual bathing, but circumcision.  While I have always seen this as problematic on the part of females, the church has, since very early days, seen baptism as the new covenant counterpart of the Jewish practice of circumcision, not of ritual baths.  While it does symbolize a cleansing from sin, it also means much more.  It is also a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.  I find it highly unlikely that anyone was ever circumcised more than once.  Baptism is a sign of entrance into the visible church, a beginning of community.   However, even the Jewish people (male and female) were called at times to renew the covenant by a "circumcision of the heart."  Should you be interested, you can see the following:
Deuteronomy 10:16
Deuteronomy 30:6
Jeremiah 4:4

Part of the Jewish process of Conversion includes the Mikveh of the Gentiles.  This was performed only once before circumcision of males and the only rite performed for females.  This was the baptism that was taken over by the christians.

Quote from: pennyjane on May 26, 2008, 11:04:22 AM
....."don't ask me to leave you!  let me go with you.  wherever you go, i will go; wherever you live, i will live.  your people will be my people, and your God will be my God.  wherever you die, i will die, and that is where i will be buried.  may the Lord's worst punishment come upon me if i let anything but death separate me from you."

from ruth to naomi:  ruth 1: 16-17

It has never ceased to amuse me that the Ruth/Naomi verses have always been a traditional wedding text.

hi lisbeth.  perhaps it is used so often because of it's poetic, simple and beautiful claim on what most of us feel is the essence of marriage.  total commitment.  and, as the story goes, naomi and ruth did live out their lives with one another, in support and loving embrace and with an abundance of God's blessings.  if folks would open their eyes they could see other reports in biblical texts of God's love towards any commited and loving relationship.  God, and His apostles and deciples do preach feverishly against promiscuity and prostitution, be it homosexual or heterosexual.  but loving relationships are always held up to the light and regardless of gender mix seem to grow with God's blessing.     

Maybe, instead of being re-baptized, we should ask for a renewal of our baptismal promise - and do so as who we truly are.  My experience in renewing our baptismal promise is that the congregation is also asked to renew their promise.  This would reaffirm for all that we are children of the Almighty as well. 

Chaunte

According to the Nicene Creed, adopted around 325 C.E., the basic tenants of the Christian Faith are as follows.  It is very specific about one, and only one, baptism.  A 'second baptism' would be considered new-fangled, and not part of the traditional Christian faith.



We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and all that is seen and unseen. 
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfilment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

  Amen

i think the question here was if the original babtism was a take.  in our church, though we recite the nicene creed each sunday and believe in one babtism, if the original babtism was not done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit it wasn't a take.  we would babtise again since, according to our beliefs, the person was never effectively babtised to begin with.  i am not an authority but to the best of my knowledge that is the only time we will re-babise.  i was babtised before my transition, if fact before i even had a gleam about transitioning.  i have never felt a need to do it again.  i don't think God is much concerned with how i present that which he has made as long as i do it with love and compassion and with His glorification in mind always.  much love and hope, pj