Quote from: Shambles on March 01, 2018, 06:29:31 PM

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 01, 2018, 01:57:34 PM
<cue broken record sound>

I've heard, and believe, that 1 in 20 men crossdresses. That's 2.5% right there. The numbers thrown around are unquestionably low.

Umm 1 in 20, thats 5%  ))

Men are roughly half the population? 

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 01, 2018, 06:36:46 PM
Umm 1 in 20, thats 5%  ))


Men are roughly half the population? 

Hugs, Devlyn

But women can crossdress too! It's just more socially acceptable. At much higher rates than 5%, though I doubt many would consider themselves trans because of it. That's where the definition issue comes into play again and makes it so reliant on self identification. Likewise, many male crossdressers might not consider themselves trans in the slightest.

Exactly my point. Which brings us back to 5%.

I've spent nights with hundreds of trans women. If we were as rare as some people say we are, that wouldn't be possible.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 01, 2018, 07:00:40 PM
Exactly my point. Which brings us back to 5%.

I've spent nights with hundreds of trans women. If we were as rare as some people say we are, that wouldn't be possible.

Hugs, Devlyn

But is that a true indicator of population? If you are Native American and grow up on tribal lands, you would spend every day with hundreds of Native Americans. That doesn't necessarily indicate a sizable portion of the general population, because of the nature of demographic clumping. I feel as though it would also be the case if the numbers were as high as 5%, even with the most inclusive definition, things would have come to a head long ago regarding the issue. 5% is the threshold for a rare occurrence in most statistical analysis, and so hitting 5% or above would mean that we aren't just not rare, but that would make it more likely to be trans than Jewish. I don't know the exact numbers off hand for religious identifications, but I'd wager it would put being trans at more common than being any minority faith (ie: not Christian or Atheist). It seems exceedingly unlikely such a large population would stay hidden for so long.

(This is purely academic on my part, not meant to be argumentative, I've genuinely been trying to figure this out because it has me completely stumped.)

Well Dears, we'll just have to put our collective genius together and figure it out.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 01, 2018, 07:00:40 PM
Exactly my point. Which brings us back to 5%.

I've spent nights with hundreds of trans women. If we were as rare as some people say we are, that wouldn't be possible.

Hugs, Devlyn

Well Devyln, did you please them all?

Maybe its becoming a 1/10 thing...?
Im not sure...
Though i am sure its always been a high number.
Even in older times...
People are who they are and struggle in different ways.
Maybe one day well know

I think the only way we may get a vague percentage is if a national body commissioned a survey but even on these, respondents either lie or won't declare.

UK hospitals (either staying or for daily appointment) ask you to fill in Questionnaire which asks the Transgender Question amongst others.

in 2021 there will be a full UK Census.

However I don't see how we could ever truly know statistics on Trans.

Pamela

Quote from: pamelatransuk on March 03, 2018, 09:04:42 AM
I think the only way we may get a vague percentage is if a national body commissioned a survey but even on these, respondents either lie or won't declare.

UK hospitals (either staying or for daily appointment) ask you to fill in Questionnaire which asks the Transgender Question amongst others.

in 2021 there will be a full UK Census.

However I don't see how we could ever truly know statistics on Trans.

Pamela

To get accurate numbers two things need to happen:

1) Cultural, social, and legal acceptance must be close enough to absolute (ie: no negative, including in personal feelings, to being trans or coming out).

2) It loses its cultural cachet in certain circles, so no one is falsely claiming the label by a reasonable standard. (It is expressly important to note that this is not in anyway a statement on non-binary or non-conforming identities, but rather a simple acknowledgement that the water is muddied a bit in some youth/college age demographics, with individuals who in a void, without social/peer influence would never label themselves as transgender-- and most likely will not continue to do so as they grow older. It is also an acknowledgement of the blurry macro social line between being transgender in any m/f/nb/nc identity, and those who simply believe in a gender-less society that abolishes gender entirely regardless of their identity.)

Of course there are certain statistical confidence levels that can be drawn that aren't precise, but precise enough, as we approach these two things (primarily the first, the latter is probably only the most minute of inflation, though it does tend to be a group that by its nature is vocal, which may have a compounding effect with the broader invisibility of the transgender population for gathering more accurately nuanced data).

Though we do ultimately run afoul of one major issue no matter what... What value does the data hold besides sating curiosity? Statistical information should have some relevance, and I'm not entirely sure that a measurement of the transgender umbrella provides much insight into necessary policy or social changes. We have to really break it down into sub groups, and determine the needs of each of those subgroups, in order to use the data properly, and that is where things get very, very difficult due to the diverse nature of the trans umbrella which is necessarily reliant on self identification. Also inevitably, someone will be left out or offended they are not represented, in their view, properly. For a basic example: To keep data simple and quantifiable, identification may be limited to M/F/NB. For those who are non-conforming(who in a simple data set may wind up being erroneously listed as cis-), bi-gender (but not NB), etc, this is a problem.

And my attempt to forestall working on school work continues.

This is being researched out the ying-yang these days.  The Transgender Population in the U.S.: What We Know From Current Studies

Just sticking to TSes, Lynn Conway pointed out years ago that if you just tally up all the GCS surgeries in the US you get a figure around 1:2500.
  She later estimated that it's even higher:
  On the Calculation of the Prevalence of Transsexualism.  Which is something to keep in mind when confronting people who insist we're not "normal."

Quote from: Lucy Ross on March 03, 2018, 04:57:28 PM
This is being researched out the ying-yang these days.  The Transgender Population in the U.S.: What We Know From Current Studies

Just sticking to TSes, Lynn Conway pointed out years ago that if you just tally up all the GCS surgeries in the US you get a figure around 1:2500.
  She later estimated that it's even higher:
  On the Calculation of the Prevalence of Transsexualism.  Which is something to keep in mind when confronting people who insist we're not "normal."

Hi Lucy (I'm home - sorry the Devyln made me do that) 
Glad to see you're up and about - hadn't seen any posts from you recently.

Hi Cassi,

Oh, not to worry, I'm an intermittent contributor here, nuts-and-bolts topics like this always get my attention though.

Lucy,

The links to those studies are very interesting, but counting the size of our community has one big glaring problem. So many of us are in denial for many reasons. We can count the number of those who have had GCS and those who are in therapy, either pre-op or non-op, but because we are often in denial to ourselves, we will never get a count of the absolute total transgender population.

Quote from: kokasaki on March 01, 2018, 08:53:34 AM
I think it will be hard to ever know just how many of us there are.

This is probably the most accurate thing one can say about our numbers.  There was a petition last year to ask Statistics Canada to include a question on gender identity in the next census, just because there isn't any reliable information.

Even a census with mandatory reporting will end up underreporting.  If a census had asked me about my gender identity as recently as five years ago, I would have said cis-male, because that's what I thought I was.

Quote from: KathyLauren on March 04, 2018, 07:16:40 AM
This is probably the most accurate thing one can say about our numbers.  There was a petition last year to ask Statistics Canada to include a question on gender identity in the next census, just because there isn't any reliable information.

Even a census with mandatory reporting will end up underreporting.  If a census had asked me about my gender identity as recently as five years ago, I would have said cis-male, because that's what I thought I was.

Quote from: Dani on March 04, 2018, 06:44:23 AM
Lucy,

The links to those studies are very interesting, but counting the size of our community has one big glaring problem. So many of us are in denial for many reasons. We can count the number of those who have had GCS and those who are in therapy, either pre-op or non-op, but because we are often in denial to ourselves, we will never get a count of the absolute total transgender population.

That is part of what would have to be addressed by what I mentioned in my previous post about what has to happen before we can get accurate numbers. The social/cultural shift must be so close to absolute, that there is never even a personal feeling that necessitates denial or hiding, which goes hand in hand with awareness. I think that is something you are starting to see with the current group of kids, is that, even if they fear they need to hide, their sense of self awareness is dramatically higher than those of us born before the 2000s, even those of us born in the 90's or 80' who otherwise aren't very far removed from the current cohort in other ways.

 

Quote from: Lucy Ross on March 04, 2018, 02:56:43 AM
Hi Cassi,

Oh, not to worry, I'm an intermittent contributor here, nuts-and-bolts topics like this always get my attention though.

Yay a little fun...

Pareto has some input here, with 80:20
So using that rule, 20 out of a population of 100 will question their gender
Of those 20 at present 20% may transition in some way.

That would give 4% as a loose estimate of questioned and actively seeking transformation, or have transformed themselves

If we take it that of those 20, 20% will think about transitioning giving 4 in 100
Of those 4 contemplating transition a high side estimate would be 3 who transition and a low side estimate would be 1.

From this I am more comfortable with the low side estimate, as being pragmatic, however this indicates that there may well be four times the number of us than society is expecting.. that will challenge the status quo a lot.

Food for thought

Rowan

It's interesting how the discussion wobbles from "Who is" to "Who should be counted"

I thought Cassi was trying to get the size of the transgender community, not the size of the pool of people needing policy change or medical intervention. Can you clarify that, O/P?

Quote from: Cassi on February 28, 2018, 11:45:12 PM
Wow, it's hard to believe that I've only been on this site for a little over two months - seems like ages. 

And while I tend to joke and make idiotic comments every now and then, I have found information helpful and communicating with you all has helped me to come to terms with Cassi.

That said, I have begun to wonder how many of us there are, transgender MTF or FTM.  For so long I was locked in the visual image of transsexual beings and the image of porn stars and that kept me from accepting who I was.  Thankfully, I found this site and that helped me more than I could ever seriously express.

Hugs

Cassi

I guess I'm trans. But androgynous at the same time... Had orch.. take estrogen. But live androgynous. People call me as they see me and I correct nothing. Because I am both at the same time. I do t switch one day to the next but androgynous and celibate. I live sexless and am attracted to a spiritual high dimensional connection in others who seek the same level of Consciousness.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

Quote from: Anela on March 04, 2018, 01:50:48 PM
I guess I'm trans. But androgynous at the same time... Had orch.. take estrogen. But live androgynous. People call me as they see me and I correct nothing. Because I am both at the same time. I do t switch one day to the next but androgynous and celibate. I live sexless and am attracted to a spiritual high dimensional connection in others who seek the same level of Consciousness.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

That's kewl.