Quote from: BT04 on March 14, 2018, 11:57:57 PM
Again, I posit: how do you conflate confidence with dominance?

Individuals at the top of a social hierarchy display what we recognize as higher frequencies of confident behaviors. Do I even need to go into this or do I have to spell out everything everyone in here already knows? that the guy who sits in the corner looking nervously around him but avoiding eye contact with others etc, displaying all sorts of submissive and nervous behaviors, is typically not displaying the body language of those in more dominant roles - that of leader of a group, manager, boss, teacher, statesman, C.O., CEO etc., etc.? And we know in those roles those people would be required to show confidence toward and in dealing with others or their jobs would be difficult?

Confidence and dominance go hand in hand - not in every single case obviously, but on the whole you tell me how far a politician would get if he can't look another one in the eye and give a smooth public speech, if a C.O. can't chew out a subordinate, or any manager show themselves up to be a nervous wreck.   

QuoteI'm really not anti-science, or even anti-determinism. But a lot of the above seems to be coming from a place of scientism and emotion rather than... well, science. Especially since you can't even be bothered to defend yourself.

Not really. You came in and decided to paint my post as nothing more than "toxic masculinity crap". Now you're going to try crowbar some belittlement into it as well? There's no emotion here, only fatigue in dealing with the constant heckling over "toxic masculinity" nonsense being pasted over just about everything in sight. "Toxic masculinity" has its place in discussion, but this one isn't it. 

Quote from: Kylo on March 15, 2018, 10:48:35 PM
Individuals at the top of a social hierarchy display what we recognize as higher frequencies of confident behaviors. Do I even need to go into this or do I have to spell out everything everyone in here already knows? that the guy who sits in the corner looking nervously around him but avoiding eye contact with others etc, displaying all sorts of submissive and nervous behaviors, is typically not displaying the body language of those in more dominant roles - that of leader of a group, manager, boss, teacher, statesman, C.O., CEO etc., etc.? And we know in those roles those people would be required to show confidence toward and in dealing with others or their jobs would be difficult?

Confidence and dominance go hand in hand - not in every single case obviously, but on the whole you tell me how far a politician would get if he can't look another one in the eye and give a smooth public speech, if a C.O. can't chew out a subordinate, or any manager show themselves up to be a nervous wreck.   

Not really. You came in and decided to paint my post as nothing more than "toxic masculinity crap". Now you're going to try crowbar some belittlement into it as well? There's no emotion here, only fatigue in dealing with the constant heckling over "toxic masculinity" nonsense being pasted over just about everything in sight. "Toxic masculinity" has its place in discussion, but this one isn't it.

Maybe you two should take your argument/disagreement/whatever to a new thread. 

I really don't see how its very helpful to The Flying Lemur. [emoji19]

Ryuichi

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for me the issue isn't confidence, because I'm not a shy person, but something else -- I feel like if I smile or talk to anyone in an engaged way I'm way less likely to pass, and I find it pretty sad. I noticed that i pass better if I feel & therefore look less happy haha

personally i don't want to have to appear angry or upset in order to pass. i don't want to make myself less expressive just to pass. i feel like if i reigned myself in, i would create a distance between me and the people i interact with and I don't think that's worth it.

however i feel like a lot of this is my natural state rather than things that came from emulating cis women (there are some things i've stopped doing) and if changing your body language feels like going towards something more genuine and natural for you then absolutely do that!

 

Lets get back on topic and be careful of kicking each other about.

Cindy

Quote from: Cindy on March 16, 2018, 04:56:55 PM


Lets get back on topic and be careful of kicking each other about.

Cindy

[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]

Ryuichi

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Things have probably already been mentioned in my last two pages,

I just want to mention one thing Ive noticed with women, when standing in line or waiting, is they'll do a gentle sway side to side on their hips. I've never done this but if youre a sway-er, dont do that.

Vice versa, it's a great femme pose for the ladies not sure what to do when standing around

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on March 16, 2018, 10:43:11 PM
Things have probably already been mentioned in my last two pages,

I just want to mention one thing Ive noticed with women, when standing in line or waiting, is they'll do a gentle sway side to side on their hips. I've never done this but if youre a sway-er, dont do that.

Vice versa, it's a great femme pose for the ladies not sure what to do when standing around

You are right. Stand still!

Be self consious and observe yourself. If you don't know what to do about your hands, put them in your jeans pockets.



Tony

When my hands are not in my pockets I usually walk with them clasped behind my back military style, usually if I'm walking around observing things or doing something. Also, when I say goodbye to someone I'll usually do a two-finger salute that I kind of make a motion away from my head into the air a bit. I originally picked it up because I thought it was cool, abandoned it because maybe it was awkward or dumb that I was the only one doing that, then I noticed another dude doing it so I realized it was kind of a masculine motion.

Probably the most uncomfortable thing to get used to when you dont do it is guys will kind of do a verticle hand clasp, kind of if you went for a high five but you wrap your fingers around the other's hand like a handshake and hold it there instead of shake hands. If youre real close you pull the other guy in for a bro hug.

Also...one thing I remember is always give a brief nod to passerbys as a hello, especially other dudes

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on March 16, 2018, 11:00:08 PM
When my hands are not in my pockets I usually walk with them clasped behind my back military style, usually if I'm walking around observing things or doing something. Also, when I say goodbye to someone I'll usually do a two-finger salute that I kind of make a motion away from my head into the air a bit. I originally picked it up because I thought it was cool, abandoned it because maybe it was awkward or dumb that I was the only one doing that, then I noticed another dude doing it so I realized it was kind of a masculine motion.

Probably the most uncomfortable thing to get used to when you dont do it is guys will kind of do a verticle hand clasp, kind of if you went for a high five but you wrap your fingers around the other's hand like a handshake and hold it there instead of shake hands. If youre real close you pull the other guy in for a bro hug.

Also...one thing I remember is always give a brief nod to passerbys as a hello, especially other dudes

A brofist also works. I do that with my co workers.


Tony

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on March 16, 2018, 11:00:08 PM
Also...one thing I remember is always give a brief nod to passerbys as a hello, especially other dudes

I second this. I started doing it pretty much subconsciously as I started passing more often, when other guys started nodding like that towards me, and I caught up on the same mannerism in response. For me, this was a sign that I was passing and cis guys saw me as a guy too.

When waiting in a line and standing, I tend to weigh on one leg, but when I shift to the other leg, I move my feet slightly first so that I keep a wider stance at all times. It looks less feminine then, although it's probably more androgynous than masculine. I tend to often ask myself "if I was cis and did this movement, would I then crush my balls?" and if the answer is "yes" I refrain from doing that movement. Wearing a packer also helps me as a reminder with that.

I did say I don't gesticulate/move my hands when talking but when I think about it now, if I'm very, very excited about what I'm saying, I do so a little. No one's said it's feminine, and I think it's because I then do short and firm movements often with just one hand, instead of big and soft/round ones with both hands. I've noticed that cis men who talk with their hands also tend to do that more similar to how I do.
I didn't actively learn that, but I think that's actually my asperger that has made me develop a less nuanced and more monotone and kinda rough-ish body language (as well as speech), both because of the clumsier motor skills and the difficulties in learning social cues that comes with having that condition. And I think those aspects in body language and speech tend to appear more masculine.

Thanks everybody, I really appreciate the input.  The study of people and body language is fascinating, even if you're not trying to change your mannerisms.  I remember learning the thing about gesturing with your whole hand instead of pointing, because pointing is rude.  It never occurred to me that this could be considered a gendered communication.  I'm probably missing a ton of other stuff that's obvious, but too familiar to "see." 

I did get sir'ed on the street the other day, though, so something must be working!

Hand communication is complex and subtle, you're right about the point being an authoritative and potentially aggressive gesture - same with gesturing with palms outward (submissive) or palm up, fingers down (entreat) as opposed to gesturing with the hand with palm down (closer to authoritative). It's not necessarily gendered but it is either authoritative, neutral or entreating.

Just watch the difference between how a traffic cop uses their hands and say... an usher at a hotel or restaurant.

Which hand (and eye) gestures you use during an argument with another guy can sometimes be the difference between an escalation or de-escalation.

I was having a good time in here until some people started strongly suggesting that masculinity = dominance = confidence. Which is a really crummy social construct I'd like to see not get perpetuated by people who fall under the LGBT umbrella at the very least. I won't apologize for my response, because that kind of attitude made my life hell for many years, and I'd really rather not be around people who believe such.

There are ways of talking about masculine body language without implying that femininity precludes passivity, and I'm glad that this thread has come back around to doing so.

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on March 16, 2018, 11:00:08 PM
When my hands are not in my pockets I usually walk with them clasped behind my back military style, usually if I'm walking around observing things or doing something. Also, when I say goodbye to someone I'll usually do a two-finger salute that I kind of make a motion away from my head into the air a bit. I originally picked it up because I thought it was cool, abandoned it because maybe it was awkward or dumb that I was the only one doing that, then I noticed another dude doing it so I realized it was kind of a masculine motion.

Probably the most uncomfortable thing to get used to when you dont do it is guys will kind of do a verticle hand clasp, kind of if you went for a high five but you wrap your fingers around the other's hand like a handshake and hold it there instead of shake hands. If youre real close you pull the other guy in for a bro hug.

Also...one thing I remember is always give a brief nod to passerbys as a hello, especially other dudes

Yep. All these seemed to come fairly natural for me. One thing I wasn't very good at was making a fuss when two people greet each other, kissing and hugging and all that. I'd only want to be that close to my other half really, or my kids. Getting told one is "cold" for not wanting to be all over other people doesn't happen any more.

Quote from: Kylo on March 21, 2018, 06:35:43 PM
Yep. All these seemed to come fairly natural for me. One thing I wasn't very good at was making a fuss when two people greet each other, kissing and hugging and all that. I'd only want to be that close to my other half really, or my kids. Getting told one is "cold" for not wanting to be all over other people doesn't happen any more.

And I'm the opposite!  To me, hugging/brohugging a friend is perfectly fine, as long as the other person's okay with it.  If not, a firm handshake, fistbump or even a high five is cool too.  I'm an affectionate man, and shows of affection to friends and family is as natural to me as breathing.

Ryuichi

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Quote from: BT04 on March 21, 2018, 05:47:37 PM
I was having a good time in here until some people started strongly suggesting that masculinity = dominance = confidence. Which is a really crummy social construct I'd like to see not get perpetuated by people who fall under the LGBT umbrella at the very least. I won't apologize for my response, because that kind of attitude made my life hell for many years, and I'd really rather not be around people who believe such.

There are ways of talking about masculine body language without implying that femininity precludes passivity, and I'm glad that this thread has come back around to doing so.

i agree & I also feel that the more confident I feel/ behave the more likely i am to get misgendered. so the simplification isn't even universally true

i also find it really depressing that i would have to become less social or less friendly or less expressive if i wanted to be read as male. I spent a lot of my life trying not to withdraw & to be comfortable in my body, now i have to start trapping my hands in my pockets so i don't seem effeminate?? a lot of ~male body language doesn't come naturally to cis men either, some of they way men behave comes from gender policing and homophobia and I personally don't want to lean into that. it just sucks that it means i don't pass where even an effeminate cis man is still usually read as a man.

again tho if anyone feels like more ~masculine body language is closer to their natural behavior & it makes them feel more comfortable then i support that too

Quote from: Ryuichi13 on March 22, 2018, 12:21:05 AM
And I'm the opposite!  To me, hugging/brohugging a friend is perfectly fine, as long as the other person's okay with it.  If not, a firm handshake, fistbump or even a high five is cool too.  I'm an affectionate man, and shows of affection to friends and family is as natural to me as breathing.

Ryuichi

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If it comes natural I guess. I wonder sometimes in the current climate whether being physically affectionate with strangers (esp women) is a good idea though. For example around other people's kids or putting your hand on people's shoulders and stuff can be taken the wrong way by some people. Not my main reason for not doing it, but another consideration.

It's about personal space, the only people who come into mine are people I know well, I don't meet a lot of super affectionate people. Maybe it's a cultural thing, I don't know - I have American relatives who are much more touchy feely than us Brits. They're talkative and casual and less self conscious about that stuff.   

Quote from: Kylo on March 22, 2018, 06:29:22 AM
If it comes natural I guess. I wonder sometimes in the current climate whether being physically affectionate with strangers (esp women) is a good idea though. For example around other people's kids or putting your hand on people's shoulders and stuff can be taken the wrong way by some people. Not my main reason for not doing it, but another consideration.

It's about personal space, the only people who come into mine are people I know well, I don't meet a lot of super affectionate people. Maybe it's a cultural thing, I don't know - I have American relatives who are much more touchy feely than us Brits. They're talkative and casual and less self conscious about that stuff.

Oh, I was talking about being affectionate with friends and family.  With strangers, I usually smile and shake hands or whatever.

And maybe us Americans ARE a bit more phusically affectionate.  I never thought of it as a culteral thing, just a "I'm a friendly sorta guy"-type thing.  Interesting.

Question:  Do Brits brofist or hug or anything like that, or is it a simple handshake to friends and family?

Ryuichi

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Usually younger people who are more physical. The older ones I see are physically affectionate with their close friends and family, they'll not touch anyone they don't know beyond the handshake or the cursory feminine hug. The only time I've seen brofists etc. going on is among students or kids tbh, but maybe people do it with their friends or coworkers. Not something anyone I know beyond my generation does much of. Older guys are usually standoffish when it comes to that here, formal handshakes being the done thing. Dealing with my male docs and surgeon lately for example - always part on a handshake, but won't lay a finger on you otherwise. Kind of the same with my male relatives, they're not very physical.

It's noticeable when you take a trip to the continent how much more hands-off Brits typically are than the French or the Italians etc. We're more like the Germans in that respect, except we're more talkative to strangers than they usually are. I think with us it's an extension of that whole thing about Englishmen and their castles. If we're on good terms with someone, it's ok... but we don't presume to be on that level with most people.

Quote from: Peep on March 22, 2018, 05:21:46 AM
i agree & I also feel that the more confident I feel/ behave the more likely i am to get misgendered. so the simplification isn't even universally true

i also find it really depressing that i would have to become less social or less friendly or less expressive if i wanted to be read as male. I spent a lot of my life trying not to withdraw & to be comfortable in my body, now i have to start trapping my hands in my pockets so i don't seem effeminate?? a lot of ~male body language doesn't come naturally to cis men either, some of they way men behave comes from gender policing and homophobia and I personally don't want to lean into that. it just sucks that it means i don't pass where even an effeminate cis man is still usually read as a man.

again tho if anyone feels like more ~masculine body language is closer to their natural behavior & it makes them feel more comfortable then i support that too

Yeah, it's very unfortunate that for a number of us passing requires you to rein yourself in completely, or as implied in another thread started by someone asking for advice on how to pass, acting like a straight-up jerk. It also reminds me how, whenever I see trans men taking selfies, most of the time they don't smile - in fact they usually scowl. Trans women usually look as happy as they are. What gives?

I plan on bucking that, no <not allowed> given. I move a lot, I gesticulate a lot, I laugh, I sing (see the whistling thread), I have a rubber face that I'm not afraid to express myself with. I will also be physically strong and (at this rate) visibly muscular with good definition; I'll participate in some of the bro-est straight dude culture, I'll crap in the woods, I'll bust up my knuckles working on my car, and I will do all the above unapologetically. Because I'm a man and how I move and act and talk is male. I refuse to be seen as weak or """beta""" because I'm not a perfect icon of stone-walling stoicism.

For those interested parties, there's a new sub->-bleeped-<- dedicated to men's mental health issues, actually, and the userbase is going to great lengths to avoid falling back on lazy axioms of gender essentialism (and by extension, sexism) when trying to address men's feelings of inadequacy, isolation, etc. Because that's what this "dominance" narrative gives us: high male suicide rates and skyrocketing depression with no one to talk to.

<link removed - moderator>