So, I am struggling to understand my female identity and define exactly what it means to be feminine now and as I transition...who will I be as a woman.  The question is something of an open ended one and here it goes:

How and where have you found femininity in yourselves and how have you been able to shed the masculine mantle? 

I am looking for anything that you think is relevant be it hobbies or emotions or thought processes or mannerisms, everything is on the table.  I would also appreciate perspectives pre vs. post hrt.  Where I am coming from is that I fiercely want to be female but I don't really have any stereotypicaly female interests.  Do those develop as you transition and socialize as a woman?  I know of course that everyone is different, but I am looking for some other perspectives.

         Julie

Socialization as I understand it is far less about stereotypical activities and very much about how we relate to people and the world. Surely, many of the things I picked up during my hyper masculine / compensation years were activities that could be considered "macho" e.g. rock climbing, however I always found I did those things with an introspective approach and in fact approach most of them the way women tend to.

As an example, I've always been a climber who relied on balance and economy of movement. It's not like I had an image of "I want to climb like a chick", many of these things predate my realization that I was trans. Also both before and since transition I've preferred female partners. E.g. while 95% of the male cyclists I know react poorly to being "chicked" (passed by a female), and would rather die than draft a woman riding in a paceline, none of those things bothered me.

Many of the habits of male socialization took a lot of work to change, e.g. talking over others and mansplaining.

Today feminine interests to me runs more along the lines of female pride ... "Anything you can do, I can do better *bleeding*".

The decidedly feminine pursuits I've taken on tend to be about presentation, clothing (that I mostly can't afford), makeup and perfumes, caring for my hair well so I can grow it out as long as possible ... All those I attribute to wanting to affect a femme lesbian style.

Also you say "fiercely want to be female". I can relate. In my experience that was a desire to accelerate my transition. Today I simply experience being female. HRT was the thing that pushed me from a focused and somewhat preconceived idea of what female meant to where I am now.

For me it was just a matter of removing the hyper masculine mask. The temptation was to replace it with my naive notion of a feminine one, but I soon realised the folly in all of this and began accepted myself for who I was. Not easy because that exposed the real me to being judged.
And that's the key really, learn to be yourself, to love yourself and your femininity will shine through. Be open and attentive to others and most often they will respond in kind and recognise the real you. If you believe the real you to be feminine then that's what they will see.
I'm certainly not there yet as I lack experience on many levels, but I am finding things are starting to make a little more sense.

Peace and love and all that good stuff,

Sadie

Quote from: Shy on April 03, 2018, 05:19:55 AM
For me it was just a matter of removing the hyper masculine mask.

Yes, this.

All my life, I have been a techy nerd.  Why would I pay a workman to fix something if I could do it myself?  Why buy an expensive piece of equipment when I can build one myself with a few hours and a soldering iron?  Suddenly, that has no appeal for me at all.  I used to like to write software that did its job better than the commercial stuff.  Now I can't be bothered.  These changes aren't intentional; they just happened.  I no longer value myself just for what I can do.

I have learned not to laugh when men tell dirty jokes.  I never found them funny, but over the years had trained myself to laugh to preserve my cover.  Now I roll my eyes and shake my head sadly, glancing knowingly at the other women.

I interact more, both with women I know and with strangers.  Learning to talk in the washroom was difficult!  But now, if I am shopping for a birthday card, for example, If another woman is doing the same thing, I will commiserate with her about the lack of decent choices.  Or I'll chat with another shopper in the grocery store about why I like a particular brand.

There was never any forcing myself to be fem. There was stopping myself from dropping into the masculine act though. I had practiced how to act around guys for so long that it was difficult not to drop into that when guys were around. Actually the other day I had to go to the autoparts store in my hometown. I had to control the urge to put the act on again as soon as I walked in the door and saw guys who had known me before I started transition. Even though they weren't my friends or anything, being in that masculine space made me want to act the part as a self defense mechanism.

Like everything in life, it's about finding out what works for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Honestly, the best thing you can do to become more feminine, is to stop worrying about being feminine.  You're subconscious will bring your "inner diva" to the surface.  Believe it or not you have learned exactly what type of woman you wanted to be through all these years of observation. 

For me, I have a passionate love affair with the 30s/40s.  I love my Starlets of the "Golden Age" of the Siver Screen.  I adopted part of it.  I always looked up to my mom's strength and compassion, and adopted it.  I grew up learning from my father to love  cars, motorcycles, and getting my hands dirty... I adopted that as well.  All these little things add up to the person I want to be. 

First lesson of being a girl is to stop overthinking being you.  There are a myriad of ways for women to be women.  I would venture to say that if you limit your Male/Female preconceptions down to "Men Posture" and "Women Are Mysterious", that will get you in the right frame of mind to let the rest come naturally.

Just like girls do as they are growing up, we have to figure out what is us in the female spectrum and the things that are not us so much. It's about adjusting who we are as we go through life to become more and more who we really are and less what we were told we should be. That being said, those girls WERE taught the rules usually and we were taught a different set of rules. That is what transition is, learning a different set of rules and letting go of the old set.

Okay, this will quite probably be the worst analogy ever. M16 rifle training, you take your sights to zero, fire a group of shots and adjust your sights, rinse and repeat until, hopefully, all of your shots are in the center of the target. My particular adjustment was right 3 and up 8, every time I was issued a new rifle I could go to zero then right 3 and up 8 and usually be shooting in the center of the target or close to it. That is gender presentation from what I can see or how we all learn it. We find zero, everyone's idea what female or male should be, then we adjust to find us, who we really are and want to be. Even in transition you see over and over people pushing to find that ideal then as they get close to getting there they realize not ALL of that ideal is them and they adjust to be more themselves. BUT we have to be starting from the proper gender's zero if we expect to taken for that gender.

That is where your question comes in I think. Lol sorry, I put things together weird in my brain.
Taking your zero from male to female.
We are the people we hang around. That's it. We have to put in effort to lose the male "accent" and fit in completely but just being with and around women we automatically adjust who we are to fit our surroundings.

In any group of mixed genders I gravitate to the girls and the girls gravitate to me. You see commercials where men and women are mixed equally in a party but that is fantasy. We want to be around people who are like us.

We have to be very clear what we want when we transition because, if we set out to be a woman, we will be women. We can set out to be this part or that part of being a woman and get there too but if we "fiercely want to be female" we will most likely get there. Expect to leave the male behind. Be with them, do what they do and you will belong with them and the boy will only be history.

Quote from: SadieBlake on April 03, 2018, 01:49:23 AM
As an example, I've always been a climber who relied on balance and economy of movement. It's not like I had an image of "I want to climb like a chick", many of these things predate my realization that I was trans.

Interesting, I used to climb at a climbing gym and had a very similar approach to climbing.  I am a pretty large person physically and have always had a powerful muscular frame, but even so I have always valued grace and agility over raw power.  Like you there was no self trans awareness in my life until just a few months ago.  That gives me much to think about.

Quote from: KathyLauren on April 03, 2018, 06:45:33 AM
All my life, I have been a techy nerd.  Why would I pay a workman to fix something if I could do it myself?  Why buy an expensive piece of equipment when I can build one myself with a few hours and a soldering iron?

This sounds about like me   Definitely have an attitude that I can do anything with a little knowledge and I have always thought that knowledge is power.

So, now you call the repair folk to come and do stuff or do you still drag out the tool box?

             Julie

Quote from: FinallyMichelle on April 03, 2018, 09:57:37 AM
Okay, this will quite probably be the worst analogy ever.

No, that was great!  I understood exactly.

Quote from: JulieAllana on April 03, 2018, 10:11:17 AM
So, now you call the repair folk to come and do stuff or do you still drag out the tool box?

If I can do it in under half an hour, I'll drag out the toolbox.  Otherwise, I'll pay to have it done and curse the inconvenience and cost. 

Julie,
   I love this question. For me, HRT made a big difference in starting everything going. As I look back, it was kind of a period of time in which I very rapidly changed to a  much more emotional person. That was not the end of the story by any means. From there, it was more a series of small changes that happens as I lived life. I really believe that it is a process of little 'letting goes's' of the old, unwanted, and little acceptances that the new things are, in deed, things that are right for me. One big epiphany for me, was the acceptance of being more vulnerable and to see it as a good thing rather than a bad thing. It was an important thing for me. I never worked to lose any masculine activities that I might enjoy, they just  stayed as 'my' things. I very naturally went with where my emotions led me, with the occasional, "Oh yeah, I can do that now." My process is not over, and I will continue to evolve. I think a lot of folks fret about not feeling like they are totally feeling like a woman (M to F) early in transition. For some folks, it is a  matter of that developing through time. After all, all the previous experiences were in the other gender. Through living my life, I am more feeling like a woman with every new experience. You will get there.
Moni

@ JulieAllana:   One of the most helpful things, in my own personal experience, about developing female attributes other than the obvious and hopefully significantly apparent body changes with HRT is doing a lot of people watching at malls, airports, restaurants, etc. 

Just watching how females walk, talk, sit, eat and interact with other females.... and they can interact differently with males.... 
....obviously then, significant female body changes from HRT...  PLUS dressing like, looking like, thinking like and going out and about displaying confidence and self-assurance comes with practice, but once all of that is mostly mastered, passing for most transitioners will come more often and more easily.

Hugs and continue to enjoy your transition journey in spite of your temporary struggles...(we all have struggles with transition, you are not alone.)
Danielle

Quote from: HappyMoni on April 03, 2018, 10:28:52 AM
I think a lot of folks fret about not feeling like they are totally feeling like a woman (M to F) early in transition.

Definitely fretting.   

Julie,
   By the look of your stats, you are really new to transition. You will get there. I fully sympathize with how you are feeling being so new. I wanted to jump ahead, skip awkward stages, but it does work out. It is like watching paint dry sometimes, but just remember it gets better and better. Try to keep it in your head that you have this wonderful life ahead of you where you will live true to yourself. It is an adventure, that's for sure, but try to find pleasure in the journey. Am I being too cliche? Well maybe, just don't panic. Even the people who transitioned a long time ago went through a lot of the thoughts you are faced with. I am starting to really see the other side now and all I can say is it is worth the trip. The people from Susan's who talked me down and offered me hope were right.
Moni

Quote from: HappyMoni on April 03, 2018, 10:28:52 AM
   I love this question. For me, HRT made a big difference in starting everything going. As I look back, it was kind of a period of time in which I very rapidly changed to a  much more emotional person. That was not the end of the story by any means. From there, it was more a series of small changes that happens as I lived life.

Yeah, this. Never being one to do anything the easy way, I spent something like 17 years struggling both with learning to live with testosterone and yet to blend as feminine and also as it turns out to manage fundamental mindfulness. And I had made a lot of progress, I was mostly accepted by the women in my life as female, which is how I presented in private life.

The first things I felt when I started HRT were all of my emotions so much closer to the surface.

One of the things that I hadn't even realized until I tried going OFF of estrogen HRT at about my 9 month point was that I was back into my daily struggle to make an unquiet mind manage it's basic survival tasks -- remembering where my keys are, what I need to be doing on any given day. Suddenly I was back defending against habits of mind that had slipped away without my noticing when I started estrogen.

That had nothing (well nothing direct) to do with being feminine, it seems my brain is simply healthier on E than T.

Quote from: JulieAllana on April 03, 2018, 01:08:49 AM
So, I am struggling to understand my female identity and define exactly what it means to be feminine now and as I transition...who will I be as a woman.  The question is something of an open ended one and here it goes:

How and where have you found femininity in yourselves and how have you been able to shed the masculine mantle? 

I am looking for anything that you think is relevant be it hobbies or emotions or thought processes or mannerisms, everything is on the table.  I would also appreciate perspectives pre vs. post hrt.  Where I am coming from is that I fiercely want to be female but I don't really have any stereotypicaly female interests.  Do those develop as you transition and socialize as a woman?  I know of course that everyone is different, but I am looking for some other perspectives.

         Julie

None honestly. I was over 30 when starting. I was frequently misgendered before and never am now.

Socialization hasn't changed, nor has who I socialize with. Diverse friends, mainly straight women and gay males. But as ever, happy to sit down with lesbians or straight men I get on with.

I am watchful of my safety to an extent but I always was having grown up in a big city.

I'm extremely skeptical of emotional changes. Mine are the same as they always were. So are my taste buds and sense of smell. I think those that feel this might be just feeling more free to be themselves having cast such a weight off.

I'm skeptical of lady brains and male brains. I feel that research I've studied suggests differences in both, that feed into thinking and feeling as well as learning preferences. But that doesn't factor in transsexual necessarily (maybe trans is just at the very far end of an entirely natural spectrum). Studies that make sense are that around a third of women and a third of men will have the opposite type of emotional responses and learning styles to that expected by their biological sex. That's very high, far higher than trans people. It also chimes with what I see on the ground.

I'm equally skeptical of the 'wow, now the world is technicolour' stuff. If that needed oestrogen then male artists work throughout millennia wouldn't be in every gallery and museum on the planet, or on every catwalk, or every design school. Again that maybe goes back to the quarter to third of biological men who are not trans, and are very often straight, but have stereotypically female emotions and preferences.

And vice versa for women who are not trans, and largely straight, who react and interact more in line to the way western societies expect men to.

Quote from: SadieBlake on April 03, 2018, 02:56:09 PM
Yeah, this. Never being one to do anything the easy way, I spent something like 17 years struggling both with learning to live with testosterone and yet to blend as feminine and also as it turns out to manage fundamental mindfulness. And I had made a lot of progress, I was mostly accepted by the women in my life as female, which is how I presented in private life.

The first things I felt when I started HRT were all of my emotions so much closer to the surface.

One of the things that I hadn't even realized until I tried going OFF of estrogen HRT at about my 9 month point was that I was back into my daily struggle to make an unquiet mind manage it's basic survival tasks -- remembering where my keys are, what I need to be doing on any given day. Suddenly I was back defending against habits of mind that had slipped away without my noticing when I started estrogen.

That had nothing (well nothing direct) to do with being feminine, it seems my brain is simply healthier on E than T.

@ SadieBlacke:  My personal experience with my own 3+ years of HRT and going full-time over 1 1/2 years ago is exactly what you stated... plus the bonus of my significant physical body changes from HRT...  I have passed 100% since before going full-time... both physically and mentally.

Hugs, Danielle

I have found my feminine self best when I'm talking, one on one, with a woman.  It's not a matter of mimicking, I find it just "is".  I feel my mannerisms, verbiage, inflections, eye contact and listening blossoms past the point necessary for a male conversation.  In a group of women, I am as comfortable, but have trouble getting a word in edgewise.

We can't really change our core personality.  That's pretty set by nature and nurture.  What we can do is what cis women do.  Study the feminine arts.  They actually used to have things in my days called finishing schools where young women would go and this was studied and practiced.   The motivation for this can be different and vary by individual practitioners.  Many study stereotypical female mannerisms and appearance mainly for one reason.  And this is where "passing" comes into the picture.  By practicing the stereotyped commonly accepted norms of the gender binary we can ease our passage in the world and not "stand out" or "be read." (This by the way gets us in big trouble with radical feminism as we are viewed as embracing stereotypical societal/patriarchal demands of how women should look and act).  Changing our voice is a big one.  Is is artifice? Yes. But it undoubtedly eases our transition into the larger society.  Also there is walking, sitting, hand movements, facial expressions, etc.  It must be practiced with great caution as it is easy for the beginner to go "over the top" and, self-defeatingly, stand out calling attention to "over the top" feminine compensation behaviors.

This is, I think, as much art as science.  Do cis women do it? Absolutely.  For me, I find it best to find a balance between artifice and authenticity.  I try to use the feminine arts to reveal my core personality rather than to disguise it and this for me means at times owning and accepting many masculine parts of my personality.