Quote from: A message from Susan
This was part of the discussion thread "Difference between Cross Dressing and Transsexuals" I have split it off as a new thread. Please take that context into consideration when responding to this message.

---

Ahem, I try to stay out of crossdressing threads because IMO CDers and TG/TS/et. al.ers are as different as day and night.

But since the topic is "difference between CDing and TS" I thought I'D voice in here on something that hasn't been brought up . . .

(Now this is based on my experiences and observations -- I have no scientific data I can point to, but I do have a few places on the net I can refer people to help them draw their own conclusions.)

(1) IMO one is more likely to find right-leaning individuals who will OPENLY support issues/agendas that are ultimately damaging to TGLB people who are CDers than TS.

(2) One is also more likely to find CDers rather than TSers trying to EXCLUDE their association with anything TGLB because they claim they are not "gay". Indeed, a bigoted person is far more likely to be a CD than a TS.

(3) One is more likely to find EXTREME right-winged thinking -- such as belief that the current right-leaning adminstration is good for GLBT people, or thinking that we need to bide our time before asking for equality -- in the CD group.


I've a hunch this condition exists because 1) CDrs in general live in the closet and do not face first hand the consequences of their thinking and 2) lot of CDrs are exposed to anti-gay Tri-Ess and are, ahem, there is no better word for this, brainwashed by the "we're not one of them (gay)" Tri-Ess people.

Agree or disagree?

[edit]Susan: Added a message from Susan[/edit]

Quote from: HelenW on March 03, 2006, 07:29:22 PM
I suppose that if I were to define the difference it would be this:  Transvestic fetishism is when a guy puts on women's clothing to get excited, gets his jollies (with or without a partner) and then removes said articles because he's finished with them.

Being transgendered, and I'm using my younger self as a model, is that after the fun, the clothes stay on because you feel more comfortable in them than out of them.  It's more than just the sex even if you don't want to transition and you still identify as mostly male.

helen

Well this makes me feel better. In time of stress (eg work) I always turn to my fem side (Alice). I can remember one clear example is when from a stressful day at work I went straight to my favourate shop to buy some girly clothes and talk to Mary-anne a person who has helped me pick out the right clothes. I have mensioned before that I noticed wearing my girly clothes makes me calmer.

Alan

Now geez Alexandra, why do I feel sort of put down by your post??

I guess I will just have to take my homophobic, right wing, brainwashed self back into the closet and leave the stage to those brave individuals who are prepared to face and live the consequences of their thinking.

And while I am comfortably back in my closet I will plot for and support agendas that are sure to bring misery & destruction to the whole TS/TG world.

So you will gather I tend to disagree with your opinion. I have no scientific opinions to back me, and precious little experience to draw on, but your statement seems to me instinctively to be........silly

(PS I just cannot help myself - I always respond to posts that affect me this way, and you DID say you coat yourself liberally in PAM       )

Yes, Rana, I do coat myself with Pam!  No need to fear speaking your mind!

Perhaps I should make clear that a large portion of CDrs are not at all like the minority I described. Its just seems to me in the TG world that minority is even smaller.


I thought of another possibility . . . perhaps when a CDr crosses into the realm of TG and SRS, those that may have "leaned right" are overwhelmed with "other issues" regarding transistion and political views are on the back burner until years later . . . perhaps at that time some realize they rather not be Edith but instead an independent thinking woman equal to men!


If anyone disagrees, feel free to reply -- I left my flamethrower at another site. 

I will just step out of my closet and take exception to your views Alexandra.
I am not sure why you would attack Tri-Ess as Anti-Gay, this is just not an informed statement.  Yes it is true I am a card carrying member of that fine ultraright crossdresser organization. That you have painted with a wide black anti-gay brush.  So lets get started with the brainwashing Shall we. Admittedly I have only been a member for less than 2 months.

1 Tri-Ess is a international heterosexual crossdresser support organization with roots dating back to 1946. One of its greatest strengths has been its narrow definition of who should be a member. At the time it was formed there were no other supporting organizations for heterosexual crossdressing.

2. There were other groups forming during those early days for the support of gays, Lesbians transsexuals. It was felt that if someone did not fit Tri-Ess then there were other support groups that would fit their sexual idenity.

3 by conatrating on the crossdresser they could better help their membership.

4 by having a healthy membership they could  better help all transgender persons.



Much of work Tri-Ess does is at the local chapter level. Providing social opportunities for crossdressers to get out and gain confidence in their femme image.

It is my understanding that they have a very active Significant Other network open to any and all SOs that apply.

You will find Tri-Ess members making presentations with other Transgender persons to Social Work students at Georgia State University. Often along side of GLBT presentors.

Or Maintaining a booth at events such as the Council on Social Work Education conference.
"CSWE is the certifying body for schools of social work through out the US and Canada and influences other countries. As such it has a huge impact on the fabric of Social Work and indirectly our culture." Sandra S******

Often as the only T* representative at such important events.
And working directly with other GLBT representatives at these events.

You will find them on floats during TGLB pride parades across the nation.

There is simply nothing anti-gay about Tri-Ess.

I hope that I was able to brainwash some of that black paint away.

Kate Thomas   AK-6690-K

Quote from: Alexandra on March 03, 2006, 11:56:56 PM
lot of CDrs are exposed to anti-gay Tri-Ess and are, ahem, there is no better word for this, brainwashed by the "we're not one of them (gay)" Tri-Ess people.

Agree or disagree?

Quote(1) IMO one is more likely to find right-leaning individuals who will OPENLY support issues/agendas that are ultimately damaging to TGLB people who are CDers than TS.

(2) One is also more likely to find CDers rather than TSers trying to EXCLUDE their association with anything TGLB because they claim they are not "gay". Indeed, a bigoted person is far more likely to be a CD than a TS.

(3) One is more likely to find EXTREME right-winged thinking -- such as belief that the current right-leaning adminstration is good for GLBT people, or thinking that we need to bide our time before asking for equality -- in the CD group.

Quoteperhaps when a CDr crosses into the realm of TG and SRS, those that may have "leaned right" are overwhelmed with "other issues" regarding transistion and political views are on the back burner until years later . . . perhaps at that time some realize they rather not be Edith but instead an independent thinking woman equal to men!

The problem with generalistions is that we are individuals! I don't see myself as leaning any where I am who I am. My description was intended to help other CDs because as I've pointed out earlier we are in Crossdresser talk.

Shelley

If you can back this statement up with facts then i would have no problem reconcidering/recending my membership in Tri-Ess.

If you cannot provide verafiable facts then you have done this transgender service orgnization a great disservice, by draging its fine name through the mud.

Quote from: Alexandra on March 03, 2006, 11:56:56 PM
CDrs are exposed to anti-gay Tri-Ess and are, ahem, there is no better word for this, brainwashed by the "we're not one of them (gay)" Tri-Ess people.

Agree or disagree?

The best man at my wedding was  gay.  many of my freinds and pepole i have worked with over the years have been gay. I could not conceve of being part of an Anti-Gay orgnization.

Kate Thomas  Tri-Ess  #AK-6690-K

I stand by my my comments. Tri-Ess is anti-gay. They try to distance themselves from all things gay. When a gay CDr approaches Tri-Ess they will encourage him to seek help elsewhere as they are not set up to help gay people.

Disagree with me if you want, but this issue has been discussed in other forums as well, in depth. Its seems that for every exTri-Ess CDr who disagrees with the statement there is one who will agree with the anti-gay comment.

I find it interesting that nobody PMed me for my source. Wouldn't you like to at least view what I have learned and make your own conclusions. I know this forum has a policy of not letting members post links to other CD/TG forum sites and this is why I haven't done so.

It is true though CERTAIN local chapters of Tri-Ess are better than others where everybody is welcome, but likewise, there are some that will tell gay people to resign and get lost!


Posted at: March 04, 2006, 11:06:56 PM

---

Quote from: Shelley on March 04, 2006, 06:30:11 PM
The problem with generalistions is that we are individuals!

the problem is that there is no generalization to complain about. I made an observation based on what I've learned from surfing the net for everything TG/CD over the past 5 years or so. You've made no case that it is a generalization and seem to want to split hairs over ways to percieve things. I suppose you've a right to do that but if you smite people for that it pretty much sifles discussion IMO.


Posted at: March 04, 2006, 11:14:36 PM

---

Quote from: KateAlice on March 04, 2006, 08:44:37 PM
If you can back this statement up with facts then i would have no problem reconcidering/recending my membership in Tri-Ess. . . .  could not conceve of being part of an Anti-Gay orgnization.

let me dig some things up . . .


Posted at: March 04, 2006, 11:15:51 PM

---

---------------------------------------------

Here's something I wrote elsewhere on the net --

--------------------------------------------

I realize that many of you are members of Tri-Ess and others have mentioned that Tri-Ess made all the difference in the world for you when it came to dealing with CD issues. Likewise, full credit should be given to Tri-Ess for trying to help CDs in the days before resources were common place.

Now, unfortunately, we have to ask if Tri-Ess as it exists today is helping or hurting the CD cause . . .

In Helen Boyd's book "My Husband Betty" notes that the CD community today is missing out on finding ways to accept and liberate itself because of its own history -- the one created by Tri-Ess.

The foundation ideas of Tri-Ess were based on the personal opinions of the founder -- among many were her opposition to gay crossdressers, sexual reassignment surgery-pre/post op transgendered indivudals, reference to sex, involvement of SOs (intitally) and so on.

As a result of Tri-Ess's initial impact, they have shaped and defined the average CDer today who now find themselves estranged from three more communites (gay/lesbian, transgenderd and alternative sex communites) -- whose imput and experience could have helped the CDer accept himself for who he is and fight for his right to be himself in his community. (pg222)

Helen Boyd says even today, gay crossdressers and transsexuals are "encouraged" to go elsewhere and not be part of TriEss.

Ironically, the gay and lesbian community will fight for the CDer when his civil right is violated -- for instance, the case of a grocer who was fired for CDing off site, it was mostly the transgendered community who protested, nary a CD'r in sight. But when the tide is changed, one won't find a CDr fighting for gay or TG discrimination, and barely will they even fight for another CD.


Posted at: March 04, 2006, 11:33:27 PM

---

-----------------------------------------------------

here's something else I found:

http://members.aol.com/marlalouis/triess.htm

excerpt:

An Open Letter to Tri-Ess
Membership Focus or Discrimination
A Case Against Tri-Ess Membership Policies

By Marla Louise

In issue #72 of 'Crosstalk', Kymberleigh Richards made a well-reasoned argument in support of the Tri-Ess exclusionary policies based on a need for focus. These exclusionary policies delineate themselves in a membership restriction specifically prohibiting transsexuals and homosexuals from membership. The big question here is whether these exclusionary policies are justified or are excuses for discrimination.

First, let me say that I also am a member of Tri-Ess. I also strongly support the idea of Tri-Ess focusing in on the needs of one sub-group of the transgender community, namely the crossdresser. However, unlike Kymberleigh and apparently the board of Tri-Ess, I do not believe that the need for focus justifies the Tri-Ess membership restrictions. On the contrary, I feel the membership restrictions are unjustified, being just an excuse for discrimination, and damaging both to the community as a whole and Tri-Ess in particular.

This is a strong accusation, but not an isolated one. Not only does this accusation come from those outside Tri-Ess, the accusation also comes from many members within Tri-Ess. As such, I would like to explain why I feel this policy is insupportable. . . . (more)


Posted at: March 04, 2006, 11:41:24 PM

---

From the Tri-Ess website:

http://www.tri-ess.org/policy.htm

Policy excerpts:

2. A Tri-Ess Chapter's focus is support and education on behalf of heterosexual crossdressers, their spouses, partners and families.

6. Spouses, partners, parents and adult children of heterosexual crossdressers are eligible for full Chapter membership and, as such, are entitled to full membership in Tri-Ess.

8. A Tri-Ess Chapter shall have a system of screening and orienting prospective members. This process should include but not be limited to supplying the prospective member with information about Tri-Ess and the Chapter, and for interviewing the prospective member to determine suitability for membership.

1. Full Tri-Ess Membership ("Membership") is open to heterosexual crossdressers, their spouses, partners and children who are 18 years of age or older and parents (primary focus group).

http://www.tri-ess.org/3sss.html

"What is Tri-Ess" (the 3 "S") excerpts:

. . . But there it was! Tri-Ess! An organization just for heterosexual crossdressers and their families! . . .

http://www.tri-ess.org/app2.html

Check box on Tri-Ess application form excerpt:

I am A Crossdresser; -defined as an individual, typically a heterosexual male, who occasionally chooses to make a social role presentation considered appropriate for persons of the opposite genetic sex, for the purpose of personal expression, without the intention of entering a program leading to sex reassignment surgery, and without attempting to attract a partner of the same genetic sex.

You raised some interesting points here Alexandra.

Firstly:  I have no idea about Tri - Ess but I greatly doubt it is anti gay.   I think specialising in one thing is more accurate than saying its against another.

I see it this way,  Tri Ess would be looking after people like....well me,  usually married, with a family & wife is having greater or lesser difficulty coming to terms with what she has found out about her husband. For the wife to have to consider the possibility the husband may be gay as well - would be a burden too great to bear in many cases.  The very first question my wife asked me when I told her about rana was "Are you gay?"  I have no statistics on this but I suspect that question would have been one of the first most wives asked. Tri Ess looking after hetrosexual cross dressers would be because of their wives I think. (Anyway KateAlice said it better in her post)

I enjoy reading your posts.  I was hurt by what you posted BUT I did not consider what you posted was hurtful, if you get the distinction
Sadly the only contact I have with CD/TG/TS people is here so I have little knowledge of how the community feels - I judge things via a sample of one (myself   ) I know that is a sillyness but thats the only way I can. 

But my sample of one tells me that your statements about bigotry, extreme right leanings, etc. would be no more applicable to cross dressers than the general public, and most probably less - of course by the same token the TG community would be of necessity even less affected. However this does not give anyone a reason to knock the CD community.   As Shelley said everyone is an individual with their own points of view.

Now myself, "living in the closet" I would prefer discrete, I know what I am, I just dont want to be a "laughing stock to my enemies & a dread to my friends"  I think the greater majority of cross dressers fall into this category  
And even then I am not even sure of what I am (yes I am I dont want to face it).  Do you read over old posts from time to time - I do, rereading one of mine I find myself referring to me as a cross dressing chick
Lying in bed next to my wife I was reflecting on what this "slip" ment & it struck me that rana is far more than clothes its a persona & a body - yes I would love to have breasts & a body as soft & feminine as my wifes and obviously thats not somthing I can just put off & put on, yes I would like to be like this always. Yet, I still want my male apparatus, I don't want to be a woman.  God only knows what this says about me   hello ->-bleeped-<- porn?  
So you see Alexandra your post was a bit like holding a mirror up to people, don't be surprised if someone takes a swing at you because of it.

Bloody confused & disheartened
rana

Perhaps this is an over-simplification of the matter, but would Tri-Ess be considered much different than the female-only fitness center in my town?  Or a support group intended specifically for transexual people?  Some places you can go for one-stop shopping, and some places are specialty stores.  You don't get angry if an ice-cream parlor doesn't serve filet mignon....

The term Anti-Gay implies that the organization is actively opposed to gays and gay issues. 


The issue of the membership/requirements makeup does not justify the use of the term Anti-Gay.

There are all too many groups and organizations that promote themselves as anti gay and actively oppose gay issues and gay activities.

Tri Ess seeks only to serve the needs of the heterosexual crossdresser and to promote education concerning transgender issues. working closely with GLBT orgnisations on the issues.


Kate

Kate, I believe we're splitting hairs over terminology and phrases. What Tri-Ess is telling gay people (in a nice way) is to GET LOST! We can agree to disgree here.

Valerie suggested that perhaps Tri-Ess is like a "female only fitness center". That would be correct if Tri-Ess was a small organization. Unfortunately Tri-Ess has made itself the largest support organization for CDrs, and as a result, they often (intentionally or unintentionally) speak for ALL CDrs. This is politically dangerous -- to have large political power yet exclude "certain" people from membership. They also tend to "mold" people into a culture of their own creation. An "artifical" class of CDrs -- away from gay people and the rest of the GLBT umbrella.

Yes, it is true that Tri-Ess was helpful to thousands of CDrs and perhaps saved dozens of lives long before there were other options for CDrs (the internet). I would suggest that current members of Tri-Ess urge that the organization get on the PC bandwagon. What the heck is wrong with including gay members and their partners?


Posted at: March 06, 2006, 01:05:13 AM

---

Quote from: rana on March 05, 2006, 07:40:38 AM
So you see Alexandra your post was a bit like holding a mirror up to people, don't be surprised if someone takes a swing at you because of it.

Rana, I've made a living at being an investigative journalist, and I know what it is like to be the bearer of bad news . . . I'm okay with being at the center of controversey.

People can choose to do whatever they want with the information presented, even if they simply want to just ignore it. Its no biggie to me. But to be an open discussion forum, members have to feel comfortable enough to bring topics to the table -- other members ought not be upset when possible evidence surfaces that has the potential of "ruining everyone's fun".




Posted at: March 06, 2006, 01:16:55 AM

---

So, what say you people? Does Tri-Ess needs to get into the 21st century or is an exclusive CD club the best way to go here?

My objection is to the application of the term "Anti-Gay " 
The Phrase "Anti-Gay" carries with it a very significant and very negative meaning. And it should not be used lightly.

There are many ways of describing the membership polices of Tri-Ess.  Anti-Gay is not one of them in my opinion.  Do the polices need to be reviewed and updated?  That is a matter for the membership to discuss and decide. However the term was not applied to the membership policy, but to the organization as a whole.

There are many ways of describing Tri-Ess as an organization.   Incendiary phrases such, as "Anti Gay" is not one of them.

Apparently the membership policy was interpreted, as being "anti-gay" then for some reason that term was applied as fact, not just to the membership policy but to the entire organization and its body of works.

That I could not ignore. I could not let such a statement pass without comment.

Yes we can aggree to disagree.


Had the comment addressed only the membership policy then.... Things may have been different.



Kate

Hello KateAlice.

Not meaning to get involved in this forum, Cross-dressers, their whys, wherefores and their feelings, but I think that while Tri-Ess may not state they are anti-gay, they certainly seem to be exclusionary in their membership requirements, and I can see where others would interpret this as being "Anti" something.  It's as though they are making a statement like "We support the gay, Lesbian communities, but not in our backyard"

Just my thoughts.

Steph

I believe that one of the reasons that Tri-Ess isn't as inclusive is because the needs and issues of Hetero CD's are similiar in most aspects and very different in others. Their decision to not muddy the waters and only focus on the area that they do does not imply that they're unsympathetic to the rest of the TG community. It just means that they would prefer to remain focused on one particular niche of the community in the interest of their members.

Saying that Tri-Ess is "anti-gay" is like saying a fraternal organization like the Veterans of Foriegn Wars in the US is "anti-military" because they exclude service members that did not receive a campaign ribbon since they didn't serve during a recognized war or conflict.

Just an observation, but it seems like this has gotten a little off topic.  We started with discussing differences between Cross Dressing and Transsexuals and are now discussing whether Tri-Ess is Anti-Gay.  Perhaps it should be split into another thread.

Melissa

Allen
I have no idea if TS and CD are more or less same or different. I know this much fom my craving and feelings .It has never occurred to me that if I dressed as a woman I would feel any more of a woman than I do without CD. Every moment of my life I feel miserable with my bio male body and I feel most comfortable when I tuck and tape my (mis)manhood down and make the area look like a female genitalia. I try to spend as much time as I can  to be like that. I am very happy when I see myself in the mirror and notice the missing of the appendage below even though it is very much there. I did not realize until very late that I was not really what I took myself to be. To the world I am still a man. But I know that within my own mind I am a woman. Yet I have to live out as a man which I know very well I am not . It does not matter to me if I do not dess like a woman. I wish I could be a woman and also look like one to the world outside. That will not happen. So I will have to settle for the most that I can do apart from the feeling inside of me.

I cannot now believe that I spent so many years without realizing my real self. Looking back, I feel  miserable about it. Yet I am happy that I did realize although very late that I was always the woman that I now know myself to be. I do not think myself to be a TS or TG.

Leela

I hear so many transsexuals say that they feel much better with themselves if the tuck their thing between their legs.  I seem to be different.  I HATE having it fall between my legs.  I alway have.  Ever since I was a little kid, I can remember constantly reaching down my pant (hoping nobody was looking) and pulling it out between my legs.  I couldn't stand boxers because that's exactly where it falls.  Now, I don't like the look of it up in front, but if I just don't look at it, then I am fine.  Once I started wearing women's underwear, I found that it held it in place so much nicer than men's underwear ever did.  That's probably the biggest reason I wear them, other than the fact that it just feels wrong to wear men's underwear.

I have now gotten used to tucking it, so going fulltime shouldn't present a big problem, but I'll be glad to get rid of the thing.  I don't hate it, it's just very uncomfortable.  Anyway, once I have the surgery, it won't be a worry to me anymore.  I definitely look forward to that.

Melissa

Leela
it is a pleasure to meet you!
Hi  and welcome to susans
I am sure that you will enjoy Your time with us.
The  discovery of your spirit is a woundrus time for you. i hope it brings you much joy!
Glad you found us!

Huggs
Kate

Hello! Kate

Many thanks for your warm welcome. I am glad to be here where I can bare my feelings and thoughts.

Love and hugs.

Leela


Posted at: March 06, 2006, 06:58:13 PM

---

Hi! Melissa

I do not hate the thing between my legs as much as I feel very uncomfortable with it. I recall that when I was a small kid, I used to play with a little girl. I used to note the difference and feel that I too should be like that. But as I grew up, I did not even think about it until much later. So it has always been at the back of my mind that yearning to be a girl. I have read in a book by a noted sexologist wherein she writes that"objectively looking the male organ is the ugliest thing in the world; but to a woman it is probably the most beautiful thing." I wish I had been a bio woman and felt like that. Just thought I would pen my feeling.

leela