For those of you who transitioned later in life, how did you deal with being socialized as the wrong gender? How did you compensate for that lack of upbringing?

One of the things I'm thinking about is that if I physically pass, other people are going to automatically yoke me with a *different* set of expectations. I haven't been conditioned through life to respond to these expectations appropriately.

It's intimidating to think about, because I know I will have some gaps in following social cues that might make me feel... inadequate? Like can I do this?

Fake it until you make it?

I've also tried so hard to suppress certain knee-jerk reactions I have that aren't "appropriate" for members of my birth sex. So I have to fight against fighting against myself?? 

On the other hand - I've been trying my hardest to "pass" as my birth sex my entire life, which I WAS socialized to do, and after decades of trying, I realized it's never going to work.

I suppose the media also constructs unrealistic expectations and images of both binary genders. Real people aren't supermodels or superheroes.

Have you found that a gender nonconforming presentation lowers strangers' expectations for you to behave a certain way? I've played with my appearance recently and have my theories about this, but I haven't been in enough truly random situations over a long enough period of time to draw solid conclusions.

For me, the single most important thing I have found in the ability to pass is confidence. There are manly women everywhere, girly men, etc. if you are confident, that is a tremendous bit.

The first cue I had that was starting to pass was that men started treating me different. I do not yet feel entirely comfortable in groups of women but that is developing, just be you. Physical confidence shows in how you stand, posture, smiling, eye contact etc.

I think about the same issues.  40 something years of pretending to be a guy and hiding the  girl is difficult to overcome.  I think some of the differences in perceived mannerism and behaviors is overstated on trans forums.  Most of my friends are GG's and their mannerisms run a continuum, but none get close to caricatures of supposedly feminine behavior.

I have lived 2.5 years as a female tg, never had RLE, started my life as a female tg after srs. I did have extensive female mannerisms and voice traing for a year. I never wanted to be ID'd as a cis female. I look better at 70 years old than any female I have met or seen. I am a celebrity in Asia and a socialite from one of Asia's most influencial family. I am referred to a female, I have never been called sir in my global travels. Strange that for a person, like me, that could not care less, that I have never been called sir. BTW I cherish my life as a male and am blessed to live 2 lives in a lifetime.

Too early to tell.

Quote from: blackcat on April 13, 2018, 10:05:55 PM
For those of you who transitioned later in life, how did you deal with being socialized as the wrong gender? How did you compensate for that lack of upbringing?

Good question!

My personal view is that I'll probably never behave as a cis-female raised in the same social context. I do think I've moved closer to that, and will continue over time, but I'll doubt I'll ever truly get there, like a logarithmic curve.
I try not to stress about it, but I compensate to some degree by both conscious behavioural changes that over time become unconscious. And also by trying to spend more time in female social groups (where possible), to also pick up those smaller unconscious cues. X

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I never worry to much about it. Even at 27 I find it hard to behave in the expected manner.
You still find me stuck under a car most day I have peace. Only real difference is if I forget my hat my hair ends up trailing in dust and oil, like yesterday doing a busted engine mount on a Honda haha
But anyway my point is even in this old backward country like Ireland. I have gotten on really well.
I'm not gonna go outta my way to train my self to be hyper feminine now.
Besides it's not really feminine or masculine to be one way or the other really.
It's just what our parents taught us based on typical sexism that exists back then.
I was taught to be a "man" because that was expected, and I learned that because? Well I wasn't the contrary type. In the end now I realize my ways of not and inherit masculine trait of me. Just something taught to me, because it was the norm.

I'm learning now myself the girly things. To do my hair and nails and look after my skin, and makeup and clothes. It comes very natural too. And meeting up with girlfriends teaches me. I'm the quiet type so I often sit and observe most of the time.
Best approach is to not stress or worry about it.
Goodluck girl 💕

Just be me. Internally I have always felt like a women. I find the less I TRY to be feminine the more feminine I become as I automatically mimic what I observe every day. Also just be confident.

I am a late transitioner and I just feel that now I am what I was meant to be. All of my past life is gone and I live for the future and present. Whatever happens is fine with me. I am happy now.

I wasn't socialized much, let alone as a gender. I didn't pay much attention to how people were treating me. No compensation. I've always just behaved how I felt was natural (to me). That did have consequences.

QuoteI've also tried so hard to suppress certain knee-jerk reactions I have that aren't "appropriate" for members of my birth sex. So I have to fight against fighting against myself??

Well I never did fight against myself, I just had to deal with people in my own way and no, not all of them take well to all of that. But that's their problem. Just have to cross those bridges when they turn up.

QuoteFake it until you make it?

That's what most people do, I guess.

Quote
Have you found that a gender nonconforming presentation lowers strangers' expectations for you to behave a certain way?

No. I find whatever conclusion about sex from appearance comes into their heads first is the one they tend to stick to unless corrected and most people aren't absolutely comfortable with nonconforming presentation if they don't know anything about you. They tend to be standoffish or cautious at the least. If they think you're A and you behave strongly like B that can also lead to situations in which they panic or become hostile. But if you look genuinely confusing and act confusing you're going to confuse them, I suppose.

QuoteOne of the things I'm thinking about is that if I physically pass, other people are going to automatically yoke me with a *different* set of expectations. I haven't been conditioned through life to respond to these expectations appropriately.

It's intimidating to think about, because I know I will have some gaps in following social cues that might make me feel... inadequate? Like can I do this?

Yep, they will. You'll just have to wing it and pick it up as you go. Unlike old dogs, humans can learn new tricks.
And if you want to learn to swim you gotta jump in the water. Watch some people you know or people you like the manner of to get started. 

Quote from: blackcat on April 13, 2018, 10:05:55 PM
For those of you who transitioned later in life, how did you deal with being socialized as the wrong gender? How did you compensate for that lack of upbringing?

One of the things I'm thinking about is that if I physically pass, other people are going to automatically yoke me with a *different* set of expectations. I haven't been conditioned through life to respond to these expectations appropriately.

It's intimidating to think about, because I know I will have some gaps in following social cues that might make me feel... inadequate? Like can I do this?

Fake it until you make it?

I've also tried so hard to suppress certain knee-jerk reactions I have that aren't "appropriate" for members of my birth sex. So I have to fight against fighting against myself?? 

On the other hand - I've been trying my hardest to "pass" as my birth sex my entire life, which I WAS socialized to do, and after decades of trying, I realized it's never going to work.

I suppose the media also constructs unrealistic expectations and images of both binary genders. Real people aren't supermodels or superheroes.

Have you found that a gender nonconforming presentation lowers strangers' expectations for you to behave a certain way? I've played with my appearance recently and have my theories about this, but I haven't been in enough truly random situations over a long enough period of time to draw solid conclusions.

For me, it's "fake it until you make it".

I go for a femme presentation.  Pre-transition, most of my dysphoria centred around presentation, so there is no way I could stand an androgynous or gender-nonconforming presentation.  I want to be seen as a woman.

For socialization, I never really succeeded at male socialization, in spite of 60 years of trying.  While I obviously have some male habits to unlearn, it could be worse.    I look around me at how other women are behaving, and I listen to my wife's advice.  I know that I will not fully succeed, but that won't stop me from trying.

Rule #1: Work towards your happiness, not making others happy.

I'm not a woman, not trying to be one, and not trying to convince anyone that I'm one. It makes some people uncomfortable. I don't give a rat's ass about them. 

Hugs, Devlyn

Love the rule Devlyn. For many of us we have lived a lie as a male, be it subconcious or real, we become over achievers to prove we are more male than our male  peers. So, why in this new life should we live a lie yet again.  Now, I am liberated and would not want to live a life that others dictate to me as normal for a  woman.  I choose my own path, a tg female, and I have so much fun being who I am that I cant stop smiling. Pity the funeral parlor that will have to wipe that big grin away.

I made the choice to specifically live in my female form very long ago but maybe I can give a new perspective.

I am a person with ASD so I have always been clueless about social cues. I struggle with socialization. Even on forum's such as this, it can be very difficult and intimidating. I tend to be very solitary.

I never thought about passing I was just Jalene. I began to live who I believe I am. Even before I started treatment to get my hormones balanced every place I went people seen me as Jalene and treated me the same way I knew myself to be.

I have always loved who Jalene is. I love everything about me, the ASD, being intersex/trans, being some what immature, ok a lot immature. My bff who I live with says living with me is like living with a child. Accepting every aspect of myself has opened the door for peace and happiness.

That's what people see when they see me. I have and continue to leave the past in the past. Live in the moment as well as I can so the next moment is even better and give me even more things to improve upon and understand even more of myself.

I hope this makes sense. I don't want to offend anyone. In my understanding I don't quite understand trying to pass. My understanding of what passing is, that we live according to our innermost self and that is how we are seen by others.

I wish peace and happiness to everyone.

Jalene

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For me a lot of it was just about releasing the yokes of manhood and letting my inner femininity shine through.  I noticed a few months after I started HRT that I had a very girly set of organic mannerisms and that all I really needed to do was stop trying to act like a man.

Somehow I just feel very comfortable and natural in a skirt and heels.  I naturally sit up straighter, and hold my head up when I walk.  But I do have to suppress the urge to say, "Hey bro, how are they hanging?" when I see an old guy friend.

Yes, you CAN do this. 🙂 If you want to, there is nothing wrong with presenting non-conforming.

It's not that bad even though it seems so daunting in the beginning. Now I cannot even imagine socializing with guys anymore. I mean, I can but it is always awkward.

I believe I am reading your post right and I agree, look female or male and people expect us to act or "present" accordingly. So passing is a sink or swim moment, we just found ourselves in the middle of the deep end.

The discordant moments when our presentation is off can be cringe worthy, it speeds up the learning process though. If we pay attention, people's reactions will let us know where we need work. For me it was considerably less work then the years and years I spent learning to present male however.

Do you think that people are the way they are about us is because of their need for everything to make sense? I wonder about that. I think that I am like that a little and never realized it. I was at a large trans group a month or so ago, a good many of which presented their birth gender most of the time, and I learned that I am not exempt from feeling the way everyone else does. Part of it was that the only people who carry on a conversation with me was the younger transitioners, male and female, and their parents, it felt like people my age didn't know how to be around me. So I was self conscious and it was just weird. That wasn't the thing. Lol, sorry it takes me a while sometimes. The thing was, the first couple of times that I used the bathroom the first day(lots of coffee and water) it felt invasive. Deep voices seemingly not even trying to be feminine, being stared at and worst of all, THE TOILET SEAT BEING UP! It completely freaked me out, the bathroom is a place of safety and I just felt uncomfortable. I hated the reaction that I had, and I did adjust but it helped me to understand maybe what it is like for people. Things out of the ordinary, or out of our experience, can be very uncomfortable.

Lol, went afield didn't I. 😆 Isn't that why we work at presentation though? To make people comfortable so we fit in, so we are not ostracized? Not just us but almost everyone? We should be able to just be ourselves you would think, but it doesn't work that way most of the time from what I have seen. People want to be comfortable I guess so they try to be with people like themselves and can understand.

It is possible, if sometimes uncomfortable at first, to learn the cues to fit in. Scary, very scary but that fear evaporates. If that is the life you want please don't let fear keep you from it. If it is not the life you want, it takes even more courage to forge our own path I think.

Not much help am I? 😊

Quote from: warlockmaker on April 14, 2018, 08:20:37 AM
Love the rule Devlyn. For many of us we have lived a lie as a male, be it subconcious or real, we become over achievers to prove we are more male than our male  peers. So, why in this new life should we live a lie yet again.  Now, I am liberated and would not want to live a life that others dictate to me as normal for a  woman.  I choose my own path, a tg female, and I have so much fun being who I am that I cant stop smiling. Pity the funeral parlor that will have to wipe that big grin away.

Funny you mention the undertaker. I have committed my body to University of Washington when I die for study. I have a myriad of heart problems that would be good for training. But, mostly I want them to study my brain. While it won't help me any, it may have an impact on someone else's journey so they don't have to endure what I have.

Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts.

Society isn't static, values change, laws change, headlines change, fashions change, everything is in a constant state of flux.

Femininity isn't a construct of the minds of men, it's not the domain of the fashion houses. You can't buy it, wear it, fake or manipulate it. True femininity can only come from within, It's unique to every woman. All the social chatter that surrounds what it means to be a woman is an illusion, a way of society ordering itself and often an ugly from of control and repression.

For me, I learned quickly that I have to be myself. How would I ever know if people liked me or I fitted in if I wasn't being anything other than myself. The only times I don't pass is when my brain gets in the way and the only time I feel awkward and uncomfortable is when I'm trying to juggle too many social expectations. Eventually it becomes unsustainable and the house of cards comes tumbling down.

All women are unique, you are unique, I'm unique and that's o.k. Enjoy your life, be kind, considerate, attentive and loving. Expect nothing and demand nothing and you'll find your place

Peace and love and all that good stuff,

Sadie

Lots of good comments here that I am reading carefully, cause I am still figuring out what it mean to be a woman in public. I haven't even started that part of the journey yet, but I can't stop thinking about it, and how it will be.

Sadie, your observations I find really helpful. Thanks.