Please justify this video with your quote by Zappa.  One or the other is dead wrong. 

Words did not kill Mathew Sheppard, he was beat to death and left to die from exposure.  The rest of the people were attacked by actions, not words.  Words might inspire, but on their own are not actions.  Remember Frank said "I wrote a song about dental floss but did anyone's teeth get cleaner?"

The quote by Zappa, by my interpretation, goes to the heart of certain issues, such as the fear and hatred caused by those opponents of educators in my own county's school system in their attempt to educate openly about gender variance, safe sex practices, and sexual orientation in as real and straightforward a manner as possible.

These Opponents make the claims of their children being poisoned and "indoctrinated" into the "Gay agenda" because of the use of such simple terms and words  as "safe sex", "transgender", etc. - this seems to point exactly to the kinds of fears illustrated by my own interpretation of that quote by Zappa.

A thought or a word by itself in the mind and heart of the originator is not an action - it is a personal experience within oneself.

Once that person decides to actually begin sharing and showing those words or thoughts to others, it becomes an action, which leads to further action, eventually often leading to misperceptions, stereotypes, discrimination, brutality, and all too often deadly violence.

It all started with a single word or thought within the individual person. The decision that person took to share it, is an action. The actual moment of Sharing of that thought to another is an action. A person's mental and emotional reaction to those words or thoughts may become action or inaction depending on the person.

In the case of anyone that chooses or allows themselves to be influenced by the words, thoughts and expressed(action)feelings of others, this then is turned to action and often leads to every single person that has ever expressed their fears and issues as anger, discriminatory behaviors, brutality, and deadly violence. It all began with a thought, and then a word, and then a thought and a word shared with another human being - thus, an ACTION which leads to other actions and interactions which lead to etc etc etc.....

When i was a child, smaller than all the other kids, years ahead in my reading and speaking skills, emotionally sensitive and very openly expressive, all it took was one single word from a bully or tormentor to get all the other kids behind them to take whatever action against me entertained them the most and tormented me the worst. It BEGAN with a WORD. A SPOKEN WORD.

The word was "->-bleeped-<-got", "loser", "weirdo", etc., add infinitum until the abuse began in the next minute or hour or day thereafter... That single spoken word between others led to action(s) against ME.   As an adult in this world, i see that things have not changed much here since then.

Every single rude laugh, insult, weird look, discrimination, stalking, and every other trial i face in open society has originated FROM the ACTION of anyone that has EVER shared words of stereotype, misperception, fear, anger, hatred with OTHER people, and then those same people have turned that into an ACTION that i can then percieve, and which then has a DIRECT impact on MY life.

When i see the fear in people's eyes because conservative groups from all around the region and the country have banded together to fill every residents' mind in my state with lies, fear, doubt, and continued misperceptions - it has an IMPACT directly on MY life, because many of the people living here are still very much vulnerable to that kind of attack using WORDS to motivate ACTION, and the opponents KNOW it, and have taken FULL advantage of that. 

Thoughts and words became actions, which are now once again feeding fear and negative stereotypical perceptions in the minds of hundreds and thousands of my fellow citizens and neighbors LITERALLY DIRECTLY. This is NOT California, and the people here do NOT have the exposure to these things that YOUR communties HAVE had openly for many years. These actions DIRECTLY affect my ability to work and live and pay my bills, much less get through my transition.

Words DO have power in social cultures, specifically because far too many people are so weak or unaware within themselves, that they are vulnerable to being influenced by such words, and then creating further actions based on the fears, issues, and concerns which those words have then motivated them to ACT on.

This is my interpretation of what Zappa meant, and it is truly frightening and pathetic, and directly appropriate for what Karen has shared based on her use of that quote in identifying a part of her own self. 

This cannot be invalidated. Your perception may be different, and therefore entirely valid for your own self as well. - But that does not necessarily mean that she is "dead wrong", much less have to justify this to anyone else on the planet, simply because of a difference in perception or interpretation.

Most Respectfully,

LoveForever,

Sincerely,


Maryanne

I love Frank, and one of the reasons I do, is because he - in true and sheer genius - says exactly what he means.  So it not only goes the heart of your opponents but you your own heart as well.  Words are words, actions are actions, one does not demand the other.

And it was not directed at Karen, as much as the contrast between the video - which would seek to censor certain kinds of speech - and the quote, coming from someone who knew firsthand the idiocy of censorship. 

Its a reductio ad absurdum  to think that words directly lead to action, as Frank said in the Dental Floss quote.  Its the actions that are wrong, not the words. To follow your line of thinking, leads to a lot less thought.  Because, its a slippery slope.  It never ends.  And who gets to choose?  You?  Does that not render you just like that which you dislike so much, attempting to control others?  For example: In the case of anyone that chooses or allows themselves to be influenced by the words, thoughts and expressed(action)feelings of others, this then is turned to action - that is exactly why your opponents are opposed to the words you would use, as if just saying "homosexuality" makes people go out and have gay sex.  In that, you and your opponents are not that far apart in thinking that the mere utterance of the world would cause the behavior. 

Make no mistake, this is exactly what they are saying - Once that person decides to actually begin sharing and showing those words or thoughts to others, it becomes an action.  Is that not at the heart of their argument?

When i see the fear in people's eyes because conservative groups from all around the region and the country have banded together to fill every residents' mind in my state with lies, fear, doubt, and continued misperceptions - it has an IMPACT directly on MY life, because many of the people living here are still very much vulnerable to that kind of attack using WORDS to motivate ACTION, and the opponents KNOW it, and have taken FULL advantage of that.   Really?  Did these attitudes not exist before (yes) and were only played upon, not instigated - which by the way is why I don't support what you are doing, I'm from Cali, I could care less about MD.  I'm not about to be one of those people from 'around the region and the country" - yet, you would condemn them for doing what you have done here in several posts - asking for people from around the region and the nation to help you out.  How come its OK for you, but bad when they do it. 

To act to prevent things that might become will quickly end most public discourse.

Tekla - We obvously see things in a very different light, you and i. I love everything about you, that i can see. 
That's honest from the heart, and for real whether you like it or believe it or not.
I love your motto, your picture totally rocks, and i loved the term "eyeshadow outlaw" from the first second i saw it... but we are obviously at a disagreement here...

It's what LEADS to the actions, that i am addressing, and have been trying to address my whole life.

This country's very inception and path to independance was begun by only thoughts and words, that were then shared, and then acted upon by many that found themselves similarly motivated by such thoughts and words, and then the actions of others. Obviously the British felt this was wrong, and went about doing whatever they could to stop it, but they could not.

The belief, thought, or feeling, then leads to words that lead to actions. Actions witnessed by others will inavariably motivate others to action as well.

If these words are based in hatred, bigotry, untruth, distortion, or criminally discriminatory beliefs, then i think at the very least, it should be OPENLY questioned, and i will do this at every opportunity possible, and not fear the dialogue that ensues. I will listen. I will respond. I will engage in open unafraid dialogue at every chance and not attempt to limit it in any way whatsoever. I am doing the EXACT opposite of what you have percieved, and literally almost accused me of doing. I WANT to draw the dialogue out into the open, whether anyone else likes it or not.

I have initially done this independant of any agency or group outside of my own self. As a result, i am now working with many groups that are trying to do the same things, and in as many and civil ways as possible.

The main difference i see between myself and those that tell lies using the guise of moral goodness, and so-called spiritual correctness to motivate others to hate and fear and discriminate.

Even when they just as deeply believe in what they are doing in their hearts, the difference here is that i am not telling lies and distortions to accomplish what needs to be accomplished. I am speaking only from my OWN personal experience instead of what i have been taught by someone or something else outside of myself.

I have not potentially falsified hundreds or thousands of legal signatures, nor motivated others by unwarranted fear, faulty discriminatory and hatefully bigoted and limiting beliefs, and lies to do so. Nor am i using harsh and abusive rhetoric to do so. I am not discriminating against those that discriminate against me. I have repeatedly called some of them out on their lies and contradictions, and even then apologized for any offense in my tone in so doing. Give me a freaking break.

I have welcomed them literally into my own home where they will be treated with the same level of warmth, hospitality, and genuine respectful kindness as valid human beings.

The very same things i have been hard pressed to find myself in this entire life, since the very beginning of my social interaction with others.

I am going to literally sit at a table, in front of a fairly conservative congregation, with a Pastor and his wife, this coming Sunday, in one of the very churches that was named as joining the charge behind the local groups that spurred this opposition in the first place.

I was invited there as his guest, at his table, at Easter services, BY HIM, yesterday.
As a matter of fact, exactly because i engaged him in intelligent, open, truthful, and non-violent dialogue, in a meeting with him several months ago, as this issue heated up locally.
 
I took the action at that time MYSELF, to contact him independantly and directly, and engaged him in genuine non-hostile, and truthful open dialogue, instead of the same inflammatory rhetoric still being used by people on both sides of this issue.

He's been closely following this issue, and decided he wished to engage with me further, even with the level of action i have taken to spread this story and ask for help from around the country in defeating this petition/referendum attempt.

I have written in the highest defense of the people - many good hardworking people - that went out into the cold and gathered those signatures. While some fellow allies insists on using denigratory terms to generalize and refer to these folks, i have defended their right to do what they thought was right in becoming circulators of these petitions for the opposition groups.

I have been characterized as a "transgender thug and a bully" that intimidates others through the use of "fear tactics". I didn't know that giving someone that i utterly oppose a hug and a handshake is an intimidatory tactic. Maybe you could read the entire rest of the issues, as i have published it here, to help get a better perspective.

They, unfortunately, were given half of a truth, a distorted one at that, and this motivated enough fear and concern in the general populace for them to take this action and then thereby spread those half-truths and distorted fears back out directly into the general public - a public that i have to face every day of my life in this County and State. You said in an earlier post that "we will win this by being on the ground locally". I AM on the ground locally, as much as a person could POSSIBLY be, and found that statement offensive as well.

The problem i have is that lies, untruth, bigotry, misperception, and outright distortion is being used in this effort. I do not have to resort to those same kinds of tactics to get the results i need. I utterly oppose these things based on the level of untruth that i personally witnessed as these groups addressed my neighbors and fellow citizens, and filled their minds with fear based on lies, distortions and/or highly innacurate and/or incomplete information.

It is my right to oppose that, and do whatever is possible to call these things out onto the table for a fair fight. Every dictator and totalitarian system has used those same tactics to build discriminatory beliefs and then proceed to persecute the most vulnerable in every society since the beginning of societies. 
- Limit the information, make open truthful dialogue illegal or feared, and persecute those that wish to think for themselves outside of the box of comfort and cultural "norms", so that their power cannot be compromised or diminished.

I am one person of many standing against the thousands of years of untruth and demonization of human sexuality and gender variance that has occurred largely as the result and spread of fanatical beliefs. Beliefs that are used to influence others' thoughts and actions, and by using their basest human emotions against them to motivate such beliefs, and still all too often leading to violently bigoted and disgustingly criminally insane behaviors.   

I am opposing that by providing as much truthful information about my experience as an openly transgendered woman in this society, as i possibly can, and to everyone on all sides of this issue.

I am doing this at every opportunity, and from every viewpoint i can possibly engage in open, truthful, and non-violent dialogue, no matter what the torpedoes want to do about it.

I am not trying to limit the dialogue as you have insultingly intimated to me in front of this forum.  i am doing everything in my power as a living feeling human being to open this dialogue further, no matter the cost to myself.
I am not hiding.

Why shouldn't i ask for help ? If there are people in my own state that won't step up to the plate because of the terror, then Isn't this an issue that potentially affects anyone that falls outside of accepted cultural "norms" ?

I was ASKED to ask for help, and by some of the people working on the national level, to help make everyone's (legislative) life better, even though you might live 3000 miles away from here.

I DO care what happens in Cali, or Europe, or the Sudan, or Georgia and Mississipi, or the hometown of the TG woman that stayed with me and my wife in our home for 3 days, and that lives 4 hours drive away in PA - and that she came here just to help with the petitions.

I cannot even afford the few extra resources used to help her stay here with us - she was unemployed at the time, and as well, beautiful, articulate, superintelligent, older and in some ways wiser than me, AND post-op.
Now i have another lifelong friend that lives in another state, and she was a tremendous help at the task force offices doing good honest work - unpaid, and not based on lies and hateful bigoted beliefs.

If something like this happened in HER hometown, i WOULD be concerned, and help in any way that i could possibly afford to.

I took issue that you seemed to judge me based on the fact that i do care that much - you even said as much -
"I dont really care what happens in MD, and i would hope that the same works in reverse as well". Why ?

If it dosent work the same in reverse then should i also be chastised or judged because you or someone else thinks it inane for some reason that i might just actually care that much ? THAT is inane to me.

The human family is one family from my viewpoint. What happens here or happens there has an affect somewhere else along the line at some point in time. If the people that use lies, distortions, and unfair, illegal, and unethical tactics, and based in faulty bigoted belief systems to effectively accomplish their goals here in my state, what's to say that it doesnt set precedent for them and their effectiveness, and move on to the next state, county, or entire country for that matter ?

You are a fellow American and fellow citizen - not just of the United states, but of the human family as a whole. Not only that, but since i assume you are trans, you have a much better understanding of these issues from a very personal standpoint in ways that no one else possibly can. You are intelligent, creative, and very spirited - Why should i not care what happens in your home ? Does it offend you in some way that i actually just might ? Would you judge me insane for caring that much ?

You seem to have, based on your statement of  "i could care less about what happens in MD, and i would hope that it works the same in reverse"... you would HOPE ? Why would you personally hope that ? it sounded a lot like that i should conform to whatever standard of belief you personally have. 
i dont have a problem with your belief standard - that is your belief - but the specific language you used seems to assume that there must be something somehow wrong with me, if i dont share the same belief.

I think that was incorrect and is exactly the VERY same thing you accused ME of.

Who are YOU to judge ME, and what i care about and why, and then somehow subtly intimate that there must be something inherently wrong with me or anyone else for being that much of a feeling and caring person ? I think you are incorrect and i was offended by this.

I am doing what i can, when i can, and how i can. If you dont see the sense in this or think i am going about it the wrong way, that's OK. I'm a big girl - i can handle it.

Just dont judge me if you dont know me, or are not standing here next to me to actually witness what every day of my life is truly like since this began. I am one of those now standing very near the eye of the hurricane in terms of my life and my transition, as well as this legislative issue. I will be AT the eye soon enough, whether i, or you, like it or not. We still need help here. I need help here.

Those that would judge and condemn and hate me (or anyone for any reason), and motivate as many others to do the same, most assuredly WILL. They are the same ones that will judge and condemn and persecute you, if given the chance.

We are all in this together. This is a HUMAN rights issue. Human rights issues affect human beings. I am a human being, and so are you.

Respectfully,

Lovingly always,


Annagirl

I'm not judging you, I'm just not agreeing with you - which is my right in a free republic - which, even though its their namesake web site, I don't think your opponents believe in at all.  I'm just wondering if you don't believe in that either.

To wit: You condemn them for bringing in 'out of state' types to help them, when you seek the same help.  What's the difference?  I know for my part, I don't involve myself in the political decisions of other states - I call it being a republican (small 'r') - and I sure don't want to see some East Coast types involved out our political decisions either.  Seems fair to me.

And god knows, out current governor, who can't even pronounce the name of the state, and his super-show biz wife (she got over a million dollars for NOT showing up at work - ->-bleeped-<-, I would have not shown up for half that amount) is a fool, an idiot (though rather charsimatic) and all that - but, he is OUR idiot, our fool, and our problem.  Is he better than what he replaced.  No.  But no matter, what follows him might well be worse, or it might be Gaven.  But its our problem, not yours.  Your problem is yours, not mine.  We did this here - more or less - and now its up to you to do it where you live.  You can use us as a model.  You have my permission.  Or not.  Find your own way.  That's cool too.  But its your fight, not mine.

This country's very inception and path to independance was begun by only thoughts and words, that were then shared, and then acted upon by many that found themselves similarly motivated by such thoughts and words and the actions of others. Obviously the British felt this was wrong, and went about doing whatever they could to stop it, but they could not. >>> You assume all revolutions win.  They do not.  The world is littered with failed revolutions, few are successful.

The main difference i see between myself and those that tell lies and use the guise of moral goodness, and so-called spiritual correctness to motivate others to hate and fear and discriminate, even when they just as deeply believe in what they are doing in their hearts, is that i am not telling lies and distortions to accomplish what needs to be accomplished.  Don't your opponents think the same thing?  Not that they are right, or that you are, but I'm sure both side can say this.

unpaid, and not based on lies and hateful bigoted beliefs. >> were the people on the other side also unpaid?  Did they not see your views in the same way?  And I'm not trying to justify them, I'm just thinking they think its the same as you do.  Which was my point.

Just dont judge me if you dont know me, or are not standing here next to me to actually witness what every day of my life is truly like since this began. I am one of those now standing very near the eye of the hurricane in terms of my life and my transition, as well as this legislative issue. I will be AT the eye soon enough whether i, or you, like it or not. We need help. I need help.

Funny you should say that, I've been through that storm, and once through it is twice shy.  That Hurricane came and went, and we won.  So good, so far, but we are ever dumb (and very rich) San Francisco - what would we know?  I've been close to lives like yours, fought with people who fought for all they had, and was happy - if not proud - to stand side by side with them.  That was then.  This is now.  Everyone has to fight for their own freedom.  We got ours, and perhaps showed the way - but if not, still, its your turn now.  Where were you when we did this in the 90s?  Not with us?  Yet you expect us to .......

nah, I have been there, done that, got the shirt, I'm over it now. I have what I want.  Time for you to fight for what you think is important.  You and the other citizens there.  And no one else.



Long ago I learned a very hard lesson, in that 'we let nazis march in Skokie, because we are not nazis."

I just want to bring something in here that is alittle off topic but it is to do with the First Amendment, the right to free speech.  I notice Tekla that you are a strong advocate of everyone's right to free speech.  I agree, I understand that, but there are, and must be exceptions.

Threats and incitement are not protected under free speech, both are malicious and intentional, and punishable by law.  If an individual continually spreads hatred, by use of derogatory remarks, racial or homophobic slurs, this can incite another person with the same leanings to act upon those feelings.  Isn't the person inciting the act of violence as criminal as the person who acts upon it?  Yet the instigator may not lift a hand against anyone, often a clever tactic of a psychopath!

Did you know that Charles Manson did not actually kill anyone?    Yet he is serving life in prison.  He was found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, of which he led his followers to commit horrific murders on his orders.  But isn't he covered by the law of free speech?  He berated and denigrated those soon-to-be victims, according to his 'beliefs', because they should not live!  Now his followers didn't have to follow those orders, but the thing is, they did!

Just like Hitler, Pol Pot, and many others, including parents/caregivers or teachers who indoctrine their charges with daily words of hate and pure venom.  You don't think that one of those impressionable children will not act upon those words.  Isn't Larry Kings killing reminiscent of this.

So words do kill, Tekla.  They can kill and maim just assuredly as a gun or knife!

Ida figered ya for an indeependent Tekla.

I agree. Words don't kill.  Hatred, mob mentality, bigotry and the words that inspire them will and do create killers.  But words are still just words.

I don't want to see censorship.  I want everyone to see the bigots make fools of themselves.  I want everyone to understand them for what they are... Bigots filled with hatred.... for if they gain a following... those words spread like maggots on a dead carcass inspiring even more hatred which will eventually boil over into action.

I want the news anchor to show their videos and then sit there dumbfounded wondering how sane people could ever believe these things. I want them to appear before congress and see them greeted by thousands of people with an opposite opinion and signs booing them as they leave the hearings.

Oh no, I don't want to shut them up.  We need them.  They bring our case to the forefront. 

Cindi

Manson was in a car with them that night (Tate, not LaBiancia), which made him guilty, and there are conspiricy charges, when people plan - but he's not there for just uttering - "hey go kill somone" but for planning, - big difference.

I'm down with you Cindy, let thier ideas come out in the open.  At least you know who they are.

Just a few things.  First of all - Cindi - I have NEVER used the word censorship, nor have i implied it's advocacy in ANY way whatsoever in any of my statements in this thread. Please don't place implications that i have neither thought, nor stated, in any shape or form in this forum. You are a fair-minded and good-hearted person, and you know that i like you a lot, from past conversations. I disagree strongly that words do not hurt or kill or maim.

They are used as weapons and are used so effectively. They were used as weapons against me most of my life, and especially when I was young and unable to defend myself, physically, mentally, or emotionally, and all too effectively for far too long. The biggest part of the reason i waited and wandered in terror and self denial and confusion for more than 30 years, since i awake to myself as a girl at about age 4.

I have seen a close friend literally jailed and almost killed from WORDS of UNTRUTH and distortion spoken by others - i have witnessed this my own self. I have been hurt many times in this life by words - both spoken to my face and behind my back creating DIRECT damage to my life and my emotions by those that hate in ignorance and hostility.

You can tell me words do not harm, and they are only words, until the cows come home - but my personal experience and belief is entirely different.

ITS VERY SIMPLE. Thoughts lead to words, words are shared between people, and then may lead them to actions, whether for good or ill. Words have power in social cultures because we are social cultures based on the use of languages and socialization, and in the nature, content, and context of every single word ever used. This does have some impact, some place, on someone, at some point in time. To say different is beyond my ability to comprehend what any of you are saying.

I am NOT advocating censorship or anything like it and NEVER have for one day in my life. That is an insult to everything i believe in about a free and open society.

I think people should be addressed, challenged, and held accountable for the words they use in hostility, dishonesty, contradiction, hatred, and bigotry, and most importantly, especially the core reasons behind using them in the first place. I never said ONE single word about "limiting speech", or any such advocacy of such a ridiculously totalitarian position - i said, and am DOING, THE EXACT OPPOSITE of this. 

Did either of you actually READ my last post in response ? maybe not. I'm not sure, my meanings have been turned around as if i had used a whole different language. Let me explain further.

TEKLA - you said "To wit: You condemn them for bringing in 'out of state' types to help them, when you seek the same help.  What's the difference?" -

MY RESPONSE: Bullcrap. I never condemned ANYONE for doing that. You put lies in my own mouth now. I stated a simple fact of this current situation. I stated that support was being thrown in from other parts of the country. That is ALL i said.

I did not "condemn" them for it. You have distorted my language and i do not appreciate it. You should read more carefully before you respond with distortions.

Furthermore, when organizations like the Alliance Defense Fund (Arizona), The CBN, and the Thomas Moore Law Center, only 3 of more than a dozen out of state organizations spread across the county, throw their support and resources into this and they are not even residents of my home county, and you equate my requests for any level of possible assistance as the same ? Please. I think that is an insulting mischaracterization of both my intentions and my purpose.

Example - Let's see - i am one badly struggling and nearly unemployed Trans girl against groups that robo-called more than 500,000 homes, and told an innacurate and fearful message to my fellow citizens and neighbors. They ran radio ads around the clock on syndicated networks. They mobilized hundreds of supporters to literally spread UNTRUE and INNACCURATE information about this anti-discriminaition legislation and how it was passed.

They have used unfair, illegal, and unethical tactics in their practices in so doing. They violated almost every existing election law in this state and county to get more than 30,000 signatures to pull the only protections that i MIGHT have had some reassurance of enjoying, since i still have NO state, OR Federal employment, housing, or public facilities and services access protections.

I myself testified at the county council hearings which some of their petitioners told my fellow residents NEVER even TOOK place, therefore implying falsely that the council had just willy-nilly snuck one under the rug and under their noses without any open forums, public discussions or media coverage, all of which DID take place.

They told people it (the bill) had never been amended – it WAS - 6 times. It was then approved by unanimous democratic vote by the council. I talked to one petitioner that had been conveniently provided copies of the bill that somehow, did not show at all where it HAD in fact been amended in the final draft - and he was telling people by the dozens that he would swear on a stack of bibles that it had NEVER been amended, and therefore should be opposed, pulled back out by referendum, and then voted on AGAIN, which of course incensed and outraged good fellow concerned citizens and he racked up the signatures...

The list of fraudulent activities is about 2 full pages long, most of which i personally witnessed, directly confronted, and carefully documented so that it could be dragged out into the light to show the public just really what they have been misled by - and you imply that i want somehow to LIMIT the dialogue about this - NO !!!!

That is INCORRECT, and another direct and unbelievable distortion of both my own words and my purpose and meaning in all of this.

The sponsor of this bill has received death threats, at both her home and county council offices. They specifically targeted the most vulnerable demographics and did so very effectively to incite fear and further demonization and misunderstanding of all people like you or me.

Meanwhile, i am now back to square one with no legal protections, should i continue to be discriminated against in the workplace or in hiring - something which has made it nearly impossible for me to re-enter the workplace in my field of profession for nearly 4 years now, and has nearly thus far cost me my home, any good credit standing, my marriage, etc etc add infinitum. I am well good and aware that there are many out there that have things literally a million times worse, but i can only speak from my own experience.

THEY EFFECTIVELY USED WORDS AS WEAPONS, and they have done so with frightening ease and effectiveness. They managed to do so in what is regarded as one of the most liberal-minded and progressive counties in the entire region. There are nearly a million residents that live here in this county that borders directly to Washington DC.

Out of that number, there are maybe half a dozen outspoken "T" people in my county that are willing to step out and up to confront this, myself included. I'm not supposed to ask for help against THAT, just because you think its not YOUR problem, or you have already been thru it once before ? HOW DARE YOU ? I would help any of you, if i ever could.

All of this prattle of "your problem is not my problem". Go and be a secessionist if that's the way you really feel about your fellow countrymen and fellow human family members.

If they succeed here - they can succeed anywhere. Another fearlessly outspoken Post-op Tgirl from another state (unemployed) drives more than 4 hours and stays with me in my own home, just to help out - someone i have never even met before that picked it up from Trans PA networks. That came from the National Task force offices here in DC and Backed by the NCTE - and you try to draw some level of equivalence to what the opposition is doing ? Bull->-bleeped-<-.

I talked briefly about revolutionary times and mentioned this country's inception was begun by the proper use of WORDS, words which then LED TO action. You twisted this around and back at me when you said "You assume all revolutions win."  I have made no such assumption in any word or passage written here. Please, be so kind as to explain to me and everyone else here exactly when and where i indicated any such thought or statement - please. 

Then, you went WAY over the line, as if you hadn't gone far enough already into completely inaccurate portrayals of my meanings.

You said  - - "Funny you should say that, I've been through that storm, and once through it is twice shy.  That Hurricane came and went, and we won.  So good, so far, but we are ever dumb (and very rich) San Francisco - what would we know?  I've been close to lives like yours, fought with people who fought for all they had, and was happy - if not proud - to stand side by side with them.  That was then.  This is now.  Everyone has to fight for their own freedom.  We got ours, and perhaps showed the way - but if not, still, its your turn now.  Where were you when we did this in the 90s?  Not with us?  Yet you expect us to ...

So you fought for what you THINK is freedom once, eh ? You got yours, hmmm ?
i believe someone once said, "as long as a single human being is yet still enslaved, no person is truly free". That was then, this is now ? You answered the question your own self.

That WAS then, this IS now. It's STILL going on all over the world, in case you hadn't noticed. What planet are you living on - the planet California ?

So - now that you are all nice and comfy because you "got what you wanted", and even though there are still thousands of T people still living in abject fear, poverty, abuse, discrimination, and very real terror -all over the country - OUR country - yours AND mine - your fellow citizens and fellow human beings - just like you - still being pushed to the back of the bus everywhere that there still IS a bus...

I guess it must be nice that you shouldn't have to worry about any of them, or me, just because you got all comfy and cozy with what you THINK you got. Here's the problem. The hate didn't go away - the abuse didn't go away, the bigotry didn't go away - it's all still here - so i guess as long as you live on planet California, and have already been thru all of this, that automatically means you should be exactly what ?

What exactly - ? Entitled to not care what happens to your fellow man or woman elsewhere in the world ? - even though the 30-40 % unemployment rate of T people still exists ? Oh no - that's not YOUR problem - even though it has a real economic impact on every person in the country that pays taxes, but it somehow still dosen't affect you, right ?     

Then, last but not least, you directly insulted me by saying  - - "Where were you when we did this in the 90s?  Not with us?  Yet you expect us to ......."

WHAT ? WHO ARE YOU ? HOW DARE YOU ? if you are trans and have already transitioned, that IS good for you. You get a silver medal and a gold watch along with that shirt you mentioned.  What the ---- business is it of yours or anyone else's, much less being anything even resembling pertinent to this argument, about where I was or WHAT i was doing almost 20 years ago ?

Why does that concern you in relation to the present reality?
 
As you should WELL know your own self, not everyone has the ability to begin transitioning when they want to, or is able to, and for any one of MANY various deadly serious reasons, known ONLY to each individual - and you judge me in front of this forum, of all places, for not being there then? That really sucked.

How can you say such things and you don't even know me ?

I obviously wasn't THERE YET, back then - that's all you need to know - end of story. 
I am here NOW - doing what i can, and how i can, and at every possible level of risk to my own self without caution whatsoever, because i am sick to death of living in fear and subject to constant judgement, discrimination, disrespect, and denigration, for no other reason than archaic religious bigotry, my outward appearance, and so-called "lifestyle choice". I dont do those things to these people that hate ME. That makes it different in my book.

You lastly said - -  "nah, I have been there, done that, got the shirt, I'm over it now. I have what I want.  Time for you to fight for what you think is important.  You and the other citizens there.  And no one else."

I thought that IS EXACTLY WHAT THE HELL I AM DOING ! In case you hadnt noticed.

And by the way - why should there be some nebulous rule just because YOU say that no one should help with another's burdens or challenges - especially if the people are facing the EXACT same set of challenges - exactly where did you come up with that rule from ?

Good for you. Nice you got what YOU wanted, while others are still suffering in abuse and terror all across the country, and around the world for that matter. Glad you got a shirt, too. Hope it keeps you nice and warm while others are still all the way out in the cold, freezing their asses off.
Glad you are "over it", too. What the hell do i want with a freaking "shirt", as you put it?

i am talking about my life - your life - every single human life that has, and STILL IS ever still being suffered in tormented anguish at the hateful hands of others, disguising HATE and ignorance under the guise of "proper" morality and supposed "godliness".

None of us that are still going through this are "over it". Your assertions are contradictory, inaccurate, heartless, apathetic, and shockingly insulated, to me personally.

Last you said " Yet you expect us to...."  - - That was a pretty rotten thing to say, to be blunt about it.

Asked for, yes. Expected ? Maybe.  Do I have a right to ask that people pitch in to help ? Yes. I do. Judge me for it – you say you haven't, but your tone belies your true feelings in that – in several of your statements I have just pointed out. Taken completely aback and stunned as well by a response like yours as regards what might be a nationally precedent setting issue ? Yes. 

For like minded, fair-minded people to come and sit together and help sift through 30,000 plus signatures, all of which need to be A). Hand-checked and revalidated by at least 30 different criteria, then -  B.)Ran against a database of almost 500,000 registered voters, and do so in as objective a manner as possible  - how does that equate exactly to the level of pusillanimous hate-mongering and flat out distortions used by these opponents to demonize and create fear in the minds of everyone that could possibly be reached ?

The word transgender once again being used in the same pages and sentences as words like "pedophile" and "sexual predators"  - - The people here see those things put together, and because they largely do NOT and HAVE NOT EVER had the same level of understanding around HERE that they DO where YOU live for years – it has been disgustingly, frighteningly, sickeningly, and gut-wrenchingly effective.

All the more reason for people like YOU to help, that have "already been there and done that" before, as you put it.

I defended these same people when people on "our" side have used hateful or inflammatory rhetoric – guess you didn't read that part of my own narratives before you started taking shots at me too. I publicly invited the heads of opposition to my own table and have done so in public forums where they themselves write and respond.

Of course none of my invitations for reasonable dialogue have been answered with nothing but further lies, distortions and accusations. Bullying and bigotry – and I'm one of the ones being called a bully and a thug. I hope that you and I can reach a better middle ground of understanding.

You have many good points being outside of the box as you are here and now – I have already long since acknowledged that these folks that are being led by the real haters, are mostly good hardworking folk concerned for their families and welfare – but someone hooked them by their basest fears into responding in ways that have DIRECTLY impacted MY life, and potentially, the lives of T people everywhere.

Especially, if you believe as I do, that the human family is one, instead of otherwise, as you so vociferously seem to wish to present. Some of these people have friends and relatives in CA, or Wyoming, or Texas – and I am dead sure that they have passed that distorted half of a story here to those people too – further once again spreading unwarranted fear and misunderstanding.

Your Governor, and legislators and media people from all around the WORLD have ties and connections in DC, do they not? And none of them carry even a trace of the effect of what happens here, or there, to other places in the country and the world ? C'mon -You cannot possibly be that naive.

I live IN the DC area.

I cannot understand how you think you can be so insulated and unaffected in today's technological age. I disagree with you. So – if a nuclear bomb goes off in another country – it dosen't affect you, because you are however many thousand miles from there?

Eventually you WILL feel the impact – and so will everyone else. If not socially, then economically, if not economically, then eventually the fallout (not matter how minute the particles) WILL land in your part of the world, too and have whatever effect it will, no matter how insignificant, by your reckoning.

This is ONE world. Human beings are ONE species. I take issue with whatever or whoever taught you otherwise, and I take issue with you that you espouse what I feel is such an incredibly fallacious view of a deeply interconnected social culture such as ours, or anyone else's for that matter.

Most Sincerely and respectfully yours,


Maryanne

Thoughts lead to deads is what you opponents say too.  And I still don't support people from out of Montgomery County interfering in Montomgery County affairs.  Which seems fair.  At least.

And if you think that San Francisco County, or the City of San Francisco will somehow be affected, or effected, by what happens across the nation in Maryland, you don't know us.  We don't care.  It ain't gonna matter.  We are the banking, and finance capital center of the West - and the Pacific Rim beyond that.  If you think we care, your kidding yourself. We don't.  Were doing busines while you prattle on about bathrooms, we are way past that.

We WON our war.  Time for you to do battle.  God Speed.

And you know I've got death threats too.  For better or worse, I'm still here.

By the way, the weather here in the planet California is swell.  I got a sunburn today.  If you are trying to say, "as goes Montgomery County MD, so goes the nation"  You are wrong.  SF don't play that, nor does LA.  Or Ann Arbor ect. ect, ect.  You have to fight that fight there, and now. 


Go and be a secessionist if that's the way you really feel about your fellow countrymen and fellow human family members  >> And, I ask you again, where were you when we went through this fight.  So sorry if I don't remember you, but you were NOT here.

Another fearlessly outspoken Post-op Tgirl from another state (unemployed) drives more than 4 hours and stays with me in my own home, just to help out  And why is she doint that?  Should she not be working on getting a job in her home state, or --- at the least --- be working on that in her home state.   Sorry.  Not a good argument.  Hell, it takes me two hours on a bus to get to work, and at that, I'm not wasting natural resources.

Oh, and your from D.C. am I wrong or is that where Bush lives?  Nuff said on that one, as far as gay rights goes. 

Just who in the hell do you think you are to be lecturing San Francisco, on like, San Francisco values in the first place?  Here is the great myth of the entire San Fransisco values -- we don't export it.  It our values.  Its for us.  We are more than willing to have Topeka have its values too.  We don't care.  Topaka for the freaks who live (if you can call that living) there, and our --- OUR values for us.  We DO NOT GO TO TOPEKA and lobby them, and we would prefer if those morons kept out of SF, (except to shop).

Same to you.  We live California politics, we can care less about what happens in Iowa.  After all, we all left Iowa in one way or the other to be here.

Quote from: ChefAnnagirl on March 21, 2008, 06:34:30 PM
Just a few things.  First of all - Cindi - I have NEVER used the word censorship, nor have i implied it's advocacy in ANY way whatsoever in any of my statements in this thread. Please don't place implications that i have neither thought, nor stated, in any shape or form in this forum. You are a fair-minded and good-hearted person, and you know that i like you a lot, from past conversations. I disagree strongly that words do not hurt or kill or maim.

Maryanne

Maryanne, I was responding to tekla's first response in this thread.  I have often made the mistake of responding to a message in a thread without reading the whole thread. And then... I won't read the complete thread.  I completely understand your perspective.  Words inspire and incite.  In the end, when someone is brutally murdered in a hate crime, the source of inspiration can usually be tracked down to the words used to indoctrinate that individual.

Further, I fully understand that you, of all people, do not advocate censorship.  I was expressing my personal belief that we want bigoted people to speak out and show their true motivations.  I want them to appear as the fools that they really are.  However, I do not want to see their "words" implemented and formed to action against any member of our society.

Words can hurt, their ultimate cost can effectively motivate someone to hurt, maim, and kill.  But they must come out.  We must hear them.  We must be allowed to respond.  We must encourage and educate the populace to recognize hate speech for what it is, publicly condemn it, and let them know that we as a people will not tolerate hatred.

The argument in semantics is lost in the enormity of the violence against us.

Chin up!

Cindi

Cindi - nuff said. I think you give wise and calm insight, unfailingly.

Tekla -

Even if we disagree from completely differeing perspectives, which we obviously very strongly do in some ways, I deeply thank you for that kindness - even the tiniest such means so more more than many people could ever possibly guess... May God bless your heart. I still like you. Alot.

I DID react emotionally to your words, and got some stuff off of my chest - but i also still think you are an extremely intelligent person. I can and so far, do in most ways, completely dislike what you say and how you say it, but i can and do and will still love you - and truly - even though i have never actually met you. Maybe we will reach a better understanding.

I am GLAD you are still here. Like i said - people like you that have already been through things like this can often be the most helpful to those that have not before.

I think that everything that happens anyplace, has an equal and opposite reaction, somplace else. Just the way things work in my view. I have a differing set of insights than you do - that dosent mean that either is entirely correct nor incorrect.

I think that between extremely differing viewpoints, usually the truths and solutions are closer to the middle, containing elements from both sides, than at the extreme of either end of the argument.

I talk and express myself from a surety of my own personal experience - obviously, so do you - and that is good - at least in that way we can relate to one another in one very potentially constructive way.

Neither of us need any more enemies than we already necessarily have, or are possibly still going to acquire in the future of our lives..

May God bless your heart,

Lovingly always,

Thanks,


Maryanne


Posted on: March 22, 2008, 12:59:31 AM

---

Oh, and.... as far as all that goes -

QuoteThoughts lead to deads is what you opponents say too.  And I still don't support people from out of Montgomery County interfering in Montomgery County affairs.  Which seems fair.  At least.

And if you think that San Francisco County, or the City of San Francisco will somehow be affected, or effected, by what happens across the nation in Maryland, you don't know us.  We don't care.  It ain't gonna matter.  We are the banking, and finance capital center of the West - and the Pacific Rim beyond that.  If you think we care, your kidding yourself. We don't.  Were doing busines while you prattle on about bathrooms, we are way past that.

Got it. I still dont think it will stop here, even when we do stop it here.

We WON our war.  Time for you to do battle.  God Speed.

This is the kindness i thank you for.

And you know I've got death threats too.  For better or worse, I'm still here.

By the way, the weather here in the planet California is swell.  I got a sunburn today.  If you are trying to say, "as goes Montgomery County MD, so goes the nation"  You are wrong.  SF don't play that, nor does LA.  Or Ann Arbor ect. ect, ect.  You have to fight that fight there, and now. 

OK - sorry about the "Planet California" crack - that was really wrong - a couple of my very favorite people in the world are from there. Being pissed - i said it exactly as i felt it. And i laughed - still laughing. I figure being that straightforward and honest about your feelings in the moment is a sign that i respect you enough to be honest with you about my feelings.

Never said all that about "as goes Mo.Co., so goes the nation, etc.... - Was never trying to say that. Telling you what we are facing here and asking for help. That's all i really did. That's what a lot of people here are starting to do as well, and on every level possible. Wouldnt ask if there wasnt a need. I dont play that.  There may be some people there that may take an interest, there may be not. 


Go and be a secessionist if that's the way you really feel about your fellow countrymen and fellow human family members  >> And, I ask you again, where were you when we went through this fight.  So sorry if I don't remember you, but you were NOT here.

Not a sufficient answer to the abovementioned honest explanation as to specifically why "i was not there".

Another fearlessly outspoken Post-op Tgirl from another state (unemployed) drives more than 4 hours and stays with me in my own home, just to help out  And why is she doint that?  Should she not be working on getting a job in her home state, or --- at the least --- be working on that in her home state.   Sorry.  Not a good argument.  Hell, it takes me two hours on a bus to get to work, and at that, I'm not wasting natural resources.

She was doing all of the above and has since found a good job she had been working on at the time, as well as her own ongoing political interests. She gave herself and us the time to help while she had it. Many other reasons, all valid to her and helpful to us.. Around here, 4 or 5 hours drive sucks.

Oh, and your from D.C. am I wrong or is that where Bush lives?  Nuff said on that one, as far as gay rights goes. 

that is your view from there - Lives here ? How about occupies a space illegally obtained and i have to live right next door to this crap ? - why the hell ya think we're trying to DO all of this here and now ? Had enough. Move away and be run off by all these close-minded and judgemental people ? - NO - i deeply love Washington, and i deeply love my home state, and do not wish to leave it.

Just who in the hell do you think you are to be lecturing San Francisco, on like, San Francisco values in the first place?  Here is the great myth of the entire San Fransisco values -- we don't export it.  It our values.  Its for us.  We are more than willing to have Topeka have its values too.  We don't care.  Topaka for the freaks who live (if you can call that living) there, and our --- OUR values for us.  We DO NOT GO TO TOPEKA and lobby them, and we would prefer if those morons kept out of SF, (except to shop).

I dont know what "San Francisco values" means. Wasnt trying to lecture you about whatever you believe to be "your" values. I am only just talking about the simplest most basic of decent, completely  straightforward, and ethical human values, if such a thing can most assuredly exist. That is something which is, and can be universally shared - anyone that can truly love knows that. I never said anything about all this exportation and all that crap -

If you feel like you have good values then that is something for everyone, quite obviously. I'm not going to CA or PA or VA to "lobby for any of them". And this is NOT a "LOBBY" - this is a fight that is getting very ugly and very interesting and very personally affecting one that i just actually happen to be right in the middle of in many ways. Dr Dana Beyer, myself, and others directly involved in the "front line action" will of course become the primary targets - GOOD.  We already have. GOOD. Bring it. I got nothing else but my life, and that is exactly what i am standing on.

If i do help out in any way whatsoever for them or anyone else, it's because that is MY values. Didnt say you had to agree, either. If i happened to be visiting say. LA or Iowa city it would be no different. You dont NEED the help there - WE might need it here, if they overturn this thing..Which is why it was being asked. And it HAS been coming - mainly from all local support groups, but good people from all over the area, and the country from all kinds of levels and places, have been coming in here to help out on this one. THAT is a nice feeling, my friend. A good warm, comforting feeling - you begin to realize that some people really DO care, and are willing to throw in with us on this -

is there, or should there be, something somehow wrong with that ? I dont believe so.

Same to you.  We live California politics, we can care less about what happens in Iowa.  After all, we all left Iowa in one way or the other to be here.

Lovingly always.
You still suck.


Maryanne

Every year a group comes to SF.  They are called BattleCry/Acquire the Fire and this is what they do, from their web site:
Held in approximately 30 cities across North America each year, Acquire the Fire events create an environment where teen's hearts are captured by God and Biblical truths are imparted through high-impact multimedia, live drama, music and teaching

Picture the 1930s Nuremberg Rallies done in a more Disney friendly style and you got it.  Its about the scariest thing I've ever seen.  I run spot for the mind-numbing six hours of the show.

Now, every year they show up here, without fail, they go down to City Hall and protest.  I ask them why?  Are people from SF going to Stockton, or Modesto and trying to force SF values on them?  No.  So why are they protesting something that has no power beyond the city limits of a town they don't live in.  Because we believe in gay marriage (even though the state will not let us do it, believing in its enough I guess).  Oh.  Hey kids, right there, that HUGE building, its the Federal Building.  Did you know right now that they are in massive violation of the "thou shalt not kill" commandment - how about we go protest them, heck, I'll join in.  No.  You're joining the Army.  Right.

Now, really dislike these people.  I wish they would not do this jesus junk in my near-sacred baseball park.  But, I'm not going to try to stop them, because I don't subscribe to the Nuremberg Rally ideas. 

What Frank was saying is that words, are not actions.  One should worry about actions, not words.  Songs about sex, do not make people go out and have sex.  Teaching transgender issues does not promote anyone becoming transgender.  The people on that tape were hurt and killed, not by words, but by fists, guns and knives or other blunt objects.  None of them deserved to die, none of them in that way.  But it was the actions, not the words that did it.  To act to prohibit the words, is to buy into that Nuremberg ideal.  Its not a good place to go, or to wind up.  Hate does matter, but people are only finding the words to the ideas in their hearts, dumb though that is.  Its important to stop the hate.  Not the words, the actions. 

And, its important to stay at home and work on home issues there.  The surest way to defeat a ballot proposition in California is to prove that 'out of state' money is behind it.  Because no matter if we agree or not, we don't want people from other states interfering in our elections.  I doubt that the voters are impressed with either/both sides bringing in people who are not from there, do not live there, and have no ongoing responsibility for what happens there.

There is a reason that we try to keep local issues local.






Look, this is what we got passed.


http://www.ci.sf.ca.us/site/sfhumanrights_page.asp?id=6274

http://www.sfgov.org/site/uploadedfiles/sfhumanrights/docs/tgreport.pdf

And, I'm sure if you wrote to them they could give you the Final Report of the San Francisco Transgender Civil Rights Implementation Task Force and Recommendations for the San Francisco Board of Supervisors. San Francisco, CA, Sept. 2002. 49p.

That stuff took years out of my life, and I'm glad that I was able to help.  We took it to the state level, and its being thrashed out there.  Someday, I will again work on it, when its a national issue.