Oh, I don't know, I like statements like: Those others don't fit into the gender dichotomy (lets not debate the dichotomy).  Its defining the answer by limiting the question.  Clever stuff that.  However, if its true, why should the majority of Transgender persons, who are not TS, then care anything about that smaller segment.  After all, those issues are not my own.

"Oh check THOSE freaks! We have a medical condition, don't discriminate against US. Lets just all gang up and discriminate against them instead!"

Is this really the attitude we want to have after a lifetime of suffering hatred and bigotry ourselves? I'm sorry, but I cannot countenance that. Until EVERYBODY is free, treated equally, valued for WHO they are and what they contribute to society rather than for WHAT they are, we will never have equality. They might stop discriminating against you becaus of your TS, but they will discriminate because you are too tall, or because you aren't pretty enough, or because you went to a school they don't like, or WTF ever. We need to stop trying to fit in. Society needs to change, not us.

Quote from: lady amarant on March 21, 2008, 09:29:59 AM
"Oh check THOSE freaks! We have a medical condition, don't discriminate against US. Lets just all gang up and discriminate against them instead!"

Is this really the attitude we want to have after a lifetime of suffering hatred and bigotry ourselves? I'm sorry, but I cannot countenance that.

Ai->-bleeped-<-e Imasu.

I.

Love.

You.

There is more than a bit of the exceptionalism of suffering going on in the community. 

Quote from: BeyondThose others don't fit into the gender dichotomy (lets not debate the dichotomy); now that my transition is done I fit neatly into the female side of things.  I blend.  And when I say that it's not through conscious effort, it's because being female is who I always was and now the whole world can see that.  Life is good.

So why are you here?  If you're not trans-anything why post on a transgender forum board? 

Quote from: Claire de Lune on March 21, 2008, 10:19:18 AM

Quote from: BeyondThose others don't fit into the gender dichotomy (lets not debate the dichotomy); now that my transition is done I fit neatly into the female side of things.  I blend.  And when I say that it's not through conscious effort, it's because being female is who I always was and now the whole world can see that.  Life is good.

So why are you here?  If you're not trans-anything why post on a transgender forum board? 

I thought Beyond had some very valid points to make.....not everyone want to promote their orientation like a banner and promote the fact that they are transsexual......

Quote from: Berliegh on March 21, 2008, 10:35:38 AM
I thought Beyond had some very valid points to make.....not everyone want to promote their orientation like a banner and promote the fact that they are transsexual......

Hey, that's fine, but don't adopt an attitude of "I'm alright Jack, screw the rest of you." Transsexual people run the risk of doing exactly the same thing to other gender variant people as some sections of the Gay and Lesbian community do to us. We would happily sell them out if it would win us equality and acceptance. It's that attitude that I can't agree with, not the fact that some people just want to fade into the background and live their lives.

I think, perhaps even worse than that, is that "I'm not alright, screw the rest of you."  Most of this gender stuff for us - and for the 'normal' world too, is a matter of degrees.

Quote from: lady amarant on March 21, 2008, 10:41:02 AM

Quote from: Berliegh on March 21, 2008, 10:35:38 AM
I thought Beyond had some very valid points to make.....not everyone want to promote their orientation like a banner and promote the fact that they are transsexual......

Hey, that's fine, but don't adopt an attitude of "I'm alright Jack, screw the rest of you." Transsexual people run the risk of doing exactly the same thing to other gender variant people as some sections of the Gay and Lesbian community do to us. We would happily sell them out if it would win us equality and acceptance. It's that attitude that I can't agree with, not the fact that some people just want to fade into the background and live their lives.

I didn't imply that at all but Beyond was entitled to her opinion. I am transsexual but I'm not going to promote the fact when I'm in public. It's not a case of 'I'm all right jack'....it's more of a case of self preservation..

Again, its a matter of degrees.  Where some might choose to hide it, other wish to celebrate it. 

Quote from: Berliegh on March 21, 2008, 10:47:44 AM
I didn't imply that at all but Beyond was entitled to her opinion. I am transsexual but I'm not going to promote the fact when I'm in public. It's not a case of 'I'm all right jack'....it's more of a case of self preservation..

If the ENDA had included transsexuals, but excluded other forms of transgender, how many TS people would have been arguing EXACTLY the same line of "we take what we can get now and fight for the rest later." That's my point here.

Stealth is the right of every one of us, and I don't blame ANYBODY for doing so. But statements starting with "Those people..." are dangerous, because it immediately builds a wall. Yes, TS isn't the same as Crossdressing, but to make blanket statements like crossdressers not having a problem with Gender Identity and the like is wrong. We don't know that. We don't know what makes an Androgyne or a CD or a Genderqueer individual or whatever else tick any more than we do ourselves. There are theories galore, but ultimately IT DOESN'T matter. We each are what we are, and should not be judged for it. How we act is what defines us.

If you want to be stealth, fine, but if you are going to fight for rights, fight for the rights of all, or you are no better than the people you are fighting against.

First of all, if you are going to 'fight for rights' someone has to be out in public.  We don't do that in secret in Western nations.

Second, so someone gets beat up somewhere for not expressing gender right.  Does it matter how much HRT they had, or what they were under it all?  I doubt it.  We make a lot out of a distinction in here that all but eludes people on the outside.  While undergoing the real life test, exactly what is the diff with a CD?  Barring a long winded and very converse argument, not much to the general public.

I've gotten some feedback from members pissed about my, "glorified crossdresser" remark.

The fact is that some transsexuals can't see past being a transsexual, past their own transition.  They are INCAPABLE of seeing anything but, "oh wow I'm this gender now and I'm so happy purely because I'm this gender.  Who am I?  Oh I'm this gender.  Weee."

So tell me, what's the difference between someone being like, "oh I'm so happy tonight because I'm a girl" all night and, "oh I'm so happy because I'm a girl" for the rest of her life?

I don't see a difference.

Quote from: lady amarant on March 21, 2008, 11:13:19 AM

Quote from: Berliegh on March 21, 2008, 10:47:44 AM
I didn't imply that at all but Beyond was entitled to her opinion. I am transsexual but I'm not going to promote the fact when I'm in public. It's not a case of 'I'm all right jack'....it's more of a case of self preservation..

If the ENDA had included transsexuals, but excluded other forms of transgender, how many TS people would have been arguing EXACTLY the same line of "we take what we can get now and fight for the rest later." That's my point here.

Stealth is the right of every one of us, and I don't blame ANYBODY for doing so. But statements starting with "Those people..." are dangerous, because it immediately builds a wall. Yes, TS isn't the same as Crossdressing, but to make blanket statements like crossdressers not having a problem with Gender Identity and the like is wrong. We don't know that. We don't know what makes an Androgyne or a CD or a Genderqueer individual or whatever else tick any more than we do ourselves. There are theories galore, but ultimately IT DOESN'T matter. We each are what we are, and should not be judged for it. How we act is what defines us.

If you want to be stealth, fine, but if you are going to fight for rights, fight for the rights of all, or you are no better than the people you are fighting against.

I haven't made any posts with the sentence..'Those people'....who are you referring to? and why complain about those who are stealth. They have rights to remain as such and you are complaining in the same way as the people you condem..

There is one huge difference, there is somewhere within TS rights an issue of money, which changes everything.  Other than that, we're talking about presentation.  I know CDs who can pass, and TS who can't - and a lot the other way too.

Quote from: Berliegh on March 21, 2008, 11:44:52 AM
I haven't made any posts with the sentence..'Those people'....who are you referring to? and why complain about those who are stealth. They have rights to remain as such and you are complaining in the same way as the people you condem..

Wasn't referring to you, Berleigh.

Quote from: Beyond on March 21, 2008, 07:08:42 AM
Those others don't.  Those others don't fit into the gender dichotomy.

And as I keep saying, I have NO problem with people being in stealth and not being activists. But activist or stealth, or somewhere inbetween, we do not have the luxury of being bigots ourselves.

Quote from: tekla on March 21, 2008, 11:19:50 AMWhile undergoing the real life test, exactly what is the diff with a CD?

In a word:
Hormones.

Under supervision of a doctor or not?  How about people who can't take them?  Popping a pill can't be the borderline.  I think its at once, far more subtle than that, and not even in the vocabulary of the general public.  Its a distinction that we have trouble with, and if we don't agree, how can the general public?

Quote from: tekla on March 21, 2008, 12:44:43 PM
Under supervision of a doctor or not? 

I was responding to the phrase that you used, "real life test," which is a term of art that implies going according to the standard HBSOC which includes medically supervised hormones. How many CDs use hormones from any source vs. how many TSs, on the whole?

QuoteHow about people who can't take them?

There are always exceptions to the rule, so what. The exceptions don't define the core of the categories, although they can make the boundaries fuzzy.

QuotePopping a pill can't be the borderline.

Not the act of taking the hormones, but the underlying reasons for taking the hormones are essential to the definition.

In any social science there are lumpers and splitters. Compare any two phenomena, you're likely to find both similarities and differences between them. Are the similarities more important or are the differences more important?

Perhaps its the SOC stuff, which is used more anymore as a guideline in the US, and often not at all.  There are more options all the time, and in finding more options, the temptation is to draw the wagons closer, when it should be a matter of opening it up, not closing it down.