I am hoping to hear from both post-op F to M and anyone born with a vagina. I am trying to understand what is the usual angle for pee to leave the body when someone is sitting on the toilet with back relatively straight. If the pee goes straight down, that would be zero degrees or parallel to the body. If the angle is 90 degrees, the pee would be pretty much directly at the front of the toilet seat. Of course it could also conceivably angle backwards or anywhere in between. This is a serious question for me as I am trying to determine a possible revision need. Thank you if you can answer.
Monica

While thoroughly lacking in numbers, angles, ratios, and suitably complicated equations, this article gives a good idea of the spray pattern.  http://www.camptrip.com/camping-how-to/peeing-outside-for-girls/

It occurs to me there's probably plenty of porn documentary video showing this.

I have the feeling it does not make a stream like the old days. I can only tell you what I know and from the sound coming from the bathroom when my wife pees. She tinkles. I on the other hand invariably end up peeing between the seat and the toilet. I have always sat to pee from an early age because I did not like going around with a wet front end .

Quote from: HappyMoni on May 31, 2018, 06:47:03 PM
I am hoping to hear from both post-op F to M and anyone born with a vagina. I am trying to understand what is the usual angle for pee to leave the body when someone is sitting on the toilet with back relatively straight. If the pee goes straight down, that would be zero degrees or parallel to the body. If the angle is 90 degrees, the pee would be pretty much directly at the front of the toilet seat. Of course it could also conceivably angle backwards or anywhere in between. This is a serious question for me as I am trying to determine a possible revision need. Thank you if you can answer.
Monica

Honestly once you get srs, you'll figure out the pee angle pretty quick...plus it also depends on how 'swollen' you are downstairs.  (Trust me, you'll discover this if you are sexually active, even by yourself)  

Anyways, I just sit, and the pee goes down lol.  It doesn't roll off my leg.  I've peed with 'cis' girls for decades, never once has someone said HEY YOU PEE WEIRD.  Or even hinted at it.  I know the temptation is to hyper scrutinize everything.  Don't    Depending on the 'force' behind it, it angles towards the front more.  Then again my urethra is screwy anyways. Sadly it really was 'born that way'.

Lifelong vagina owner here, can't believe I just typed that! Paid attention for the first time tonight, according to your description I would be at zero degrees. Pretty much straight down, I do think it might vary slightly if I had a forceful stream, which I did not this time. Tinkle describes it perfectly.

Hi Monica,

When I had GCS I had to keep my legs pretty much together and bend forward. If I did that all was good. If I did not then the stream would be at about 45 degrees. The sound would be off. (At work the bathrooms have 5 to 10 toilets in a row so you get to hear the different pee sounds. I would compare myself to the other sounds and it would get depressing.

My urethra was exactly where it had been pre GCS but flush. The clitoris (exactly where the penis exited the body) was just above the urethra. My revision surgery made a deep vagina and proper positioned urethra close to the vaginal canal and in the deep vagina. Now when I pee I sit upright and just pee. The pee stream hits the labia majora and sort of breaks up the stream into an flattened stream with many droplets. The stream goes directly into the toilet at 0 degrees( I would assume, it sounds and feel 100% correct and I never looked to see if it was on an angle).   

I went from having to have my legs together and bend forward to just sitting upright and peeing with no worries and relaxing. I sound like most of the other woman in the room. There are some that have what sounds like a fire hose, few but some. I would say I sound in the 90% range of all woman, .

Quote from: Doreen on May 31, 2018, 09:00:04 PM
Honestly once you get srs, you'll figure out the pee angle pretty quick...plus it also depends on how 'swollen' you are downstairs.  (Trust me, you'll discover this if you are sexually active, even by yourself)  

Anyways, I just sit, and the pee goes down lol.  It doesn't roll off my leg.  I've peed with 'cis' girls for decades, never once has someone said HEY YOU PEE WEIRD.  Or even hinted at it.  I know the temptation is to hyper scrutinize everything.  Don't    Depending on the 'force' behind it, it angles towards the front more.  Then again my urethra is screwy anyways. Sadly it really was 'born that way'.

@Doreen, I am 11 month post-op, not pre-op. My doctor has already mentioned the possibility of a revision. I sat straight up yesterday and peed on the toilet seat. This is not every time, but I have gotten in the habit of leaning forward. Unfortunately, not to be gross, but I then can end up with mess if I also have a bowel movement. So,to me this is a practical question, not an over analysis.
Thank you @Perry, that is very helpful! I was fully thinking that peeing would be messier and am okay with that to a certain extent. At this point, I doubt it will heal/change on its own.
@Devlyn, I  was actually gonna try peeing in the backyard as a tryout for when I have that emergency situation. As it is, I don't  know how I could avoid the clothes. Liked the article though.

Quote from: Rachel on June 01, 2018, 07:37:48 PM
Hi Monica,

When I had GCS I had to keep my legs pretty much together and bend forward. If I did that all was good. If I did not then the stream would be at about 45 degrees. The sound would be off. (At work the bathrooms have 5 to 10 toilets in a row so you get to hear the different pee sounds. I would compare myself to the other sounds and it would get depressing.

My urethra was exactly where it had been pre GCS but flush. The clitoris (exactly where the penis exited the body) was just above the urethra. My revision surgery made a deep vagina and proper positioned urethra close to the vaginal canal and in the deep vagina. Now when I pee I sit upright and just pee. The pee stream hits the labia majora and sort of breaks up the stream into an flattened stream with many droplets. The stream goes directly into the toilet at 0 degrees( I would assume, it sounds and feel 100% correct and I never looked to see if it was on an angle).   

I went from having to have my legs together and bend forward to just sitting upright and peeing with no worries and relaxing. I sound like most of the other woman in the room. There are some that have what sounds like a fire hose, few but some. I would say I sound in the 90% range of all woman, .

@Rachel, thanks, that hit it right on the head. I think I am very similar.

Quote from: HappyMoni on June 01, 2018, 07:47:02 PM
@Doreen, I am 11 month post-op, not pre-op. My doctor has already mentioned the possibility of a revision. I sat straight up yesterday and peed on the toilet seat. This is not every time, but I have gotten in the habit of leaning forward. Unfortunately, not to be gross, but I then can end up with mess if I also have a bowel movement. So,to me this is a practical question, not an over analysis.
Thank you @Perry, that is very helpful! I was fully thinking that peeing would be messier and am okay with that to a certain extent. At this point, I doubt it will heal/change on its own.
@Devlyn, I  was actually gonna try peeing in the backyard as a tryout for when I have that emergency situation. As it is, I don't  know how I could avoid the clothes. Liked the article though.

I apologize for the misunderstanding, it is of course a valid question.  Especially if you're having issues peeing, so I didn't mean to sound offputting about it.   I mentioned that because I've seen & talked with post ops over the decades overanalyze everything.. especially the 'sound of pee'.. 

On that note, actually my spouse (a post op m2f with Dr. Brassard) had constant dribbling issues, urinary incontinence, urinary retention, peeing angle issues, and a host of other problems associated with her surgery.  I've heard her say more than once she wish she'd never had the surgery precisely because of her constant problems.  She's certainly not over analyzing either. 

I have my own problems, of course.. mostly related to chronic lower abdominal cramps/pain that I've certainly whined enough about on my own.  I can understand where you're coming from a bit better now. I was diagnosed with a 'patulous urinary meatus' (female version of hypospadias) but ironically I don't have issues with incontinence anymore.  I probably need it repaired.. but it hasn't been an issue.

@Doreen, thank you for that! After a number of surgeries, my first with a bad surgeon, others with good surgeons, I have gotten an education. I do not expect the perfect outcome, but hope for one that is positive and functional. My GCS surgery has been very positive. There are some things that, due to my anatomy, I accept as being reality even if not the best hoped for situation. I am needing this feedback to try to determine if what I am functionally seeing is what others always see. Do I deal with a major mess every time I use the bathroom, when others have a minor mess? Stuff like that is helpful in knowing which way to proceed. No offense taken!

Quote from: HappyMoni on June 01, 2018, 10:18:04 PM
@Doreen, thank you for that! After a number of surgeries, my first with a bad surgeon, others with good surgeons, I have gotten an education. I do not expect the perfect outcome, but hope for one that is positive and functional. My GCS surgery has been very positive. There are some things that, due to my anatomy, I accept as being reality even if not the best hoped for situation. I am needing this feedback to try to determine if what I am functionally seeing is what others always see. Do I deal with a major mess every time I use the bathroom, when others have a minor mess? Stuff like that is helpful in knowing which way to proceed. No offense taken!

I do have an issue, but its not directly related to the pee angle or anything.. its like my vagina kinda hurts sometimes.  10 years ago I had an ob/gyn use silver nitrate internally, apparently I was bleeding.   I think the wall itself is thin.. but how this relates to peeing is sometimes it'll kinda dribble over the vaginal opening sometimes and burn.  When it gets sore I'll use estrogen cream or sometimes an antifungal like vagisil and it'll sooth it.  Not sure if anyone else has that issue.  Perhaps it'll help someone.

It's been a long day, I'm sorry I did mean to comment on your concern. I remember you speaking of the cramping issue previously. I hope you find an answer. It is certainly frustrating to have  problems and no answer in sight.

My GCS was 4 months ago and I've definitely had, um, directional issues.  First month was random everywhichway as expected, but once things sort of settled down I think my angle is 74.38 degrees.  Well not exactly but I have learned to always grab a couple extra squares of toilet paper and place it in front as Pee Deflector(tm) - easier than cleaning up a mess. 

In the GCS pre-op meeting I asked Dr. Ley this question based on an earlier post I'd read on Susan's.  She said don't worry about it at first, the spray will go wild as things are healing - but if things aren't aimed quite right this can be corrected during labiaplasty (2nd stage of GCS).  Mine is scheduled for July and I'll be requesting a front-end alignment during the tune-up.

Quote from: Kendra on June 02, 2018, 11:55:27 AM
My GCS was 4 months ago and I've definitely had, um, directional issues.  First month was random everywhichway as expected, but once things sort of settled down I think my angle is 74.38 degrees.  Well not exactly but I have learned to always grab a couple extra squares of toilet paper and place it in front as Pee Deflector(tm) - easier than cleaning up a mess. 

In the GCS pre-op meeting I asked Dr. Ley this question based on an earlier post I'd read on Susan's.  She said don't worry about it at first, the spray will go wild as things are healing - but if things aren't aimed quite right this can be corrected during labiaplasty (2nd stage of GCS).  Mine is scheduled for July and I'll be requesting a front-end alignment during the tune-up.

I'd give it a year or so as your body reduces swelling & gets acclimated to the new format   2nd stage might work too.

Quote from: Kendra on June 02, 2018, 11:55:27 AM
My GCS was 4 months ago and I've definitely had, um, directional issues.  First month was random everywhichway as expected, but once things sort of settled down I think my angle is 74.38 degrees.  Well not exactly but I have learned to always grab a couple extra squares of toilet paper and place it in front as Pee Deflector(tm) - easier than cleaning up a mess. 

In the GCS pre-op meeting I asked Dr. Ley this question based on an earlier post I'd read on Susan's.  She said don't worry about it at first, the spray will go wild as things are healing - but if things aren't aimed quite right this can be corrected during labiaplasty (2nd stage of GCS).  Mine is scheduled for July and I'll be requesting a front-end alignment during the tune-up.

Kendra, I pictured you as a a 74.39 degree kind of girl! I have actually used kleenex rather than TP to clean up. It is softer and prevents toilet paper kingons. I am almost a year post-op so I doubt it will change on its own due to swelling. I also have scar issues as another reason for revision. Will see. Thanks for the post. Still hoping for some more natal born vagina input on this topic.

Well, Moni, I have found I get the best chance at a stream if I lean back slightly and spread my legs somewhat.  I guess everyone is slightly different. Sometimes it doesn't matter how I sit, it just goes where it goes. If I'm lucky, that means dribbling into the toilet bowl.  Other times, it may mean coming straight out toward the toilet seat in a spray  . I have learned to keep some toilet paper in my hand just in case things don't go in the direction I was expecting!

~Terri

First time I peed I was in the hospital about a week after the packing came out and I was sitting on an industrial toilet seat with the gap in the front. I was sitting vertical and the pee landed about 3 feet in front of the toilet. Because they wanted to measure my output, I quickly placed my hand to block the stream so I didn't lose any more of the valuable fluid (it was my ticket out of the hospital, not enough and they keep me another day). To solve the problem, I would put my chest on my legs and that corrected the angle. Over several months as the swelling went down, the angle has moved to a bit forward off vertical so it doesn't splash but it also stays in the bowl.

I didn't worry about this much because in the early 1970's I found a book in the ASU library that mentioned this very issue. It said sometimes the flow might be corrected physical manipulation however angling the body forward was the normal approach. I just got in the habit of putting my elbows on my legs and that ensures the correct angle. In addition, it prevents me from leaning on the tank and breaking it causing a massive leak. Yes, I have seen toilet tanks broke because somebody tried to use it as a chair back.

To copy Perry's fabulous phrase, another's lifelong vagina owner here... I've always had some issues with peeing. It goes everywhere to be honest! Also pelvic floor probs so I have to bear down somewhat.
I remember hitting a link to that website with photos of loads of women's vulvas years ago, to show women how much variation there is and though many feel like they are"abnormal" there really isn't such a thing as a standard vulva. What surprised me is that most textbooks and anatomical diagrams show the urethra being further forward than mine is. Mine is almost tucked in the vaginal entrance, hence the diffuse pee, I think. If I try to pee outdoors crouching (ie in a bush on a hike) I inevitably end up peeing on myself. Also can't help but pee all over specimen bottles.
Personally I tend to lean forward and part my legs.

I can't comment on mtf surgery issues but I will say that cis-female/afab anatomy really has a lot of variation so I'm not sure there is a"normal".
We just have inconvenient plumbing in many ways! But it's not something that's discussed much so I think that probably many women think they are weird because they don't match standard textbook images.

"This is so much easier! It's like a handle!" Jumanji.

Certainly, if possible, a proper pee angle is preferable. I am not sure it exists naturally though. One of my closest friends, cis, she complains every time she has to pee outside, it gets all over her. Growing up I had a friend that proved that she could write her name in the snow! Unless dysphoria is raising it's ugly head, I don't know that it would be necessary to alter what you have going now.

It's all about being comfortable with ourselves babes. If you are not comfortable and fixing it is doable, then I think that you should. If it is looking for female norm but you are comfortable, I think that it might be better to let it go. Only you can know.

Hugs