So during my extensive research ive come across god knows how many discussions talking about how transwomen are not really women blah blah blah. Youve all heard this im sure. And have begun seeing how the LGBT community is really starting to exclude the T.

Honestly, some of this hate and negative behaviour made me question whether transitioning is worth it (and of course I believe it is)

Then it got me thinking, and im sure as hell not saying it doesnt happen, for all the hatred against transwomen I havent seen much on transmen. Is it a bigger problem that a man cant live as a man than a woman as a woman? Is it more socially acceptlable one way than the other. Im probably not just looking in the right place but I found this rather perculior.

A huge argument ive found is that transwomen dont experience sexism? this baffles me... Im sure we do/will and probably from both sides of the gender spectrum. In fact ive heard stories of trans women been wolfwistled and things like that. Im sure a transmen gets those "unpleasent" people who will pick a fight with you just because

And a lot of the things and language ive seen have reminded me of exactly how homosexual people have been treat over the years, I find it extremely sad and ironic that a lot of transphobes are other members of the community.

Anyway I was just wondering on everyones opinions on all this, more of a discussion really if one can be made from it, I do agree with the point that people should be happy with how they are BUT if the birth gender isnt something that makes you happy why should we be forced into a life were we are expected to follow societies norms in a body that isnt our own.

Call me a hippy but everybody just needs to chill out and be at peace, were all alive and just because we were born with the wrong bodies doesnt make us any less human

Heres a sort of picture of a cat--- Because cats dont discriminate! Theyll trip you over no matter who you are! :3
         /\           /\
        /  \_____/   \
       /    ^     ^     \
      (       =o=       )
       \        w        /

I lack the expertise, experience, or knowledge that I'm sure you have, Tsuki. And I really hope someone chimes in(especially some of the dudes of Susans)

Because, it seems like to me men hate being lied to, way way more than women do. And they see transwomen as a falsehood, so rather than try and understand that transwomen are actually female, they see it as some deceitful trick. That is why such terms as tr-p have gained so much momentum.  And, at least for awhile(and it probably still is, I just don't watch anime memes anymore) one of the most prevailing 'jokes' is about crossdressing or potentially transgender characters.  And if it exists, in that community, I'm positive it exists elsewhere, too.

I remember a story that Susan herself shared on Twitter, and it was appalling to me!  A transgirl in college was interested in a boy, and they were growing close so she wanted to be more intimate with him, and he basically torn apart her clothes, broke her ribs, beat her face in and then seemed (for some SICK FCKING reason) proud of himself when being talked to by a police officer in jail.

I don't really have any idea from the perspective of transmen. But I think women in general are more empathetic and caring, so they are less likely to be out-raged or hate a transman just because he was born female.  And they don't get as much attention from men, because they don't find them attractive or threatening, I am assuming, anyway.

But as Allsorts(or it might have been someone else, sorry; maybe Benji) pointed out, even on Susans transwomen outnumber transmen by a large margin, and the same is probably true in real life, too.  Also, there was a post awhile ago talking about how most non-binary people were born female, rather than male, too. If the majority are transwomen in the data collected by a wide margin, there will of course, be a bias- but in truth, I am probably wrong and transmen get just as much hate and discrimination as transwomen. People just don't hear about it nearly as often, though.

That's my 2cents anyway, I wish I was more informed.

Trans women do experience sexism. I know that I have many times.

I believe that there may be one layer deeper than being tricked. Okay, say a guy is with his friends, sees a good looking girl, works up his courage by chest thumping or whatever they do and goes to talk to her. Then finds out she was trans. He just spent 5 minutes talking about how hot she was and now his friends are attacking his manhood. His ego and his status is threatened. That is the real damage to them, so the fear of not being able to tell the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman makes them angry. There is nothing rational about it. Trans men quite possibly aren't seen at the same threat level.

I have more but later, gotta run.

Cats may not discriminate but at least one wakes women up by putting his paws on her breasts and slowly extends his claws until her eyes pop wide open in pain. Then has the unmitigated gall to look at her like, So are you getting up or do we do this again? 😠 Mornings suck.

I recall reading somewhere that theres 1-100 MTF and 1-1000 FTM so there are definatly more trans women.
That story is absolutley terrifying and sadly its not the first time ive heard of things like that. That was one of the major things that put me off of going thru with transisitoning at first. I thought id be safer as im interested in women but ive heard that not all cis women are exactly pleasent about it.

There was something that happened in the UK a week or so back where a man ran for a womans position in the government claiming he was a woman on wednesdays and it just sparked up a lot of hatred on a radio chat show, people like that certainly arent helping as apparently he did it to mock trans people.

I have no problem with feminists fyi, but it seems to me that a lot of feminists are anti trans aswell. But maybe its just where ive looked like I say

^^
Yeah my cats like to do that and slap us in the face but we love it XD

I don't have a ton of experience in the area, but I think part of it is the discomfort with men being in women's restrooms compared to a relative lack of concern with women being in men's restrooms, and since transwomen are often viewed as "really" being men, they get a lot of pushback for using or wanting to use women's facilities. By contrast, no one really cares if women use the men's restroom, so transmen aren't as much of an issue in the bathroom controversy.

For example, when I was in college, women often used the men's restroom in the dorms without much complaint, but I'm sure a man using the women's restroom would have been a big deal. (I don't know what their policy was regarding trans people because I never thought to check.)

I think a big chunk of the transphobia directed towards MTF is rooted in misogyny and a need to elevate men to a higher social standing than women. Not all by any means, but it's an important element in the stew. A transitioner calls that pecking order into question in several different ways and is going to threaten a lot of men.  And anyone young presenting as female is going to be evaluated by many young men at some lizard brain level as a potential sex partner.  That will trigger whatever homophobia is lurking in there if they know the person isn't cis.

during my journey with being a transwomen (working on it >_< ) i've encountered a lot of hatred and ironically from manly/straight acting macho gay guys...even non manly gay guys...which weirds me out completely as to why. for some reason they find the whole transgender concept to be a complete ........delusional sort of thing and an outcast to their 'community'

now please do not take my own experiences as a whole. yes it differs for everyone and i'm really not swayed to believe the entire gay community is like this.

As a Teacher professionally discrimination definitely exists towards trans women. In a job where being a man is an advantage, many look at you like you are crazy to give that up. In addition you need to work even harder than CIS women to prove yourself, and be extra careful to give no one any reason to dislike you...

So yeah, sexism definitely exists for trans women. That being said even with the social stigma I would still go back and do it all again.

Looking at the Dutch cohort study of Gender Dysphoria, which covers the years 1972 to 2015 and covers every transperson in Netherlands, who was treated by their official gender clinic, the figures for trans women vs. trans men were the following:

- 4,432 trans women treated (the actual definition for this figure in the study: birth-assigned male)

- 2,361 trans men treated (the actual definition for this figure in the study: birth-assigned female)

So, it´s about 2 trans woman for every 1 trans men.

From the same study;

The estimated prevalence in the Netherlands in 2015 was;

- 1:3,800 for men (transwomen)

- 1:5,200 for women (transmen).

https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(18)30057-2/fulltext

I think that it is the sexism, which causes trans women to take most of the violence and ridicule from the society.

I'm answering this after only reading a couple of posts, so forgive me if I end up repeating what may have already been said.

Honestly, I've not encountered much discrimination.  I'm lucky to have developed a deep voice and facial hair after 18 months on t, and I pass 90% of the time.  The anime club I belong to only sees me as male, as does most of my friends here since I've moved from my home state.  I've heard about it happening to others in other places, even from gay sic men, but I've not had it happen to me.  Most of the gay men I've met were really chill and easy-going.  A remarkable thing to experience here on the "uptight" East Coast (of the US.)

I've only recently heard of "TERFs," and only due to my being on tumblr.  I think they're idiots.

I'm sure that discrimination DOES occur, after all, there are ->-bleeped-<-s everywhere.  But I've not encountered much as of this writing,  Hopefully, I never will.  My heart goes out to all of those, male or female, that have experienced it.  My hope is that they become stronger from it and don't let it get them down.  But then again, I'm the sort of man that gets angry, then gets motivated.

And for the record, only two of my cats are they type to trip you up!

Ryuichi

Just yesterday I got a nasty and very elaborate transphobic comment on a comment I made on another website, that said trans men were not "real" men and how being trans is a "mental disorder" and trans men shouldn't be allowed to "feel safe" if they present as men, yadda yadda blah blah.

However I think you have a point that in general trans women get more hate and nasty comments directed at them. But I've also noticed that quite many transphobes think equally bad of both trans women and trans men alike. With the animosity towards trans men that I've noticed, seems to be more about that they think we "ruin our beauty" and a lot of focus on the possible loss of fertility, of course a huge focus on genitals, and them seeing us as "not real men".

About other LGB people specifically, I've lately noticed more and more unacceptance from cis gay men, although just a few of them I'm sure. But some do express feeling like trans men "invade" their gay male only spaces as some kind of imposters. And a few have even targeted me and directly accused me of being a man-hater when in fact I'm as far from a man-hater as they come. So they judge me like that simply for being a trans man. I told one of them straight up that I'm actually a men's rights advocate and that he shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but yeah. That angers me because I am a gay trans man, cause I feel shunned by my own, in a sense. That feels eerily similar to how that some cis lesbians are excluding of lesbian trans women.

I've faced very little transphobia out in real life, but once I was harrassed for it on my own doorstep. It was only verbal and more annoying than scary though, back in 2011. Online I get a lot more ->-bleeped-<- for being trans. And it does get worse when they also know I'm gay.

Maybe it's just my own observations, but I think the hatred towards trans men is on the rise lately. Likely because of increased visibility in media and more people learning that not all trans people are mtf.

About sexism though, I've been faced with considerably more misandry since transitioning and passing, than I ever faced misogyny pre-transition. Sexism exists for everyone and it comes in many different forms.

A similar question came up on Quora recently, "Why are trans women so despised in our society". Even though the way I try to present myself is as androgynous rather than female, I've had plenty of negative experiences over the years for not being man enough. So here is my 2 cents worth:

https://www.quora.com/Transgender-Why-are-trans-women-so-despised-in-our-society/answer/Hugh-Easton-1

I think another thing to consider is internalized homophobia; if a man is attracted to a trans woman, and he has internalized homophobia, it's a perceived threat to his identity. I think this is why men tend toward violence, to dominate whatever threatened their sense of self.

I do not endorse this in any way, obviously. But more than anything, I think fragile egos reinforced with violent dominance is the explanation for much of this. Sadly.

This is quite the intense topic I suppose. I actually had a discussion witg someone earlier and she couldnt believe that homosexual people acted this way against trans (obviously not all).

Obviously, its nice to know others who have similar experience but we shouldnt have to be confined to our own groups.

Tgats horrific about yoy getting hastle btw, honestly its shameful to be part of a species tgar harbours so much hatred for things that dint even personally affect others.

Im actually glad some trans men have had inout aswell( cant see your names sorry) it is interesting hearing about Everyones experiences. Honestly, it would be nice if no one was getting hate tho. Maybe its just me but it confuses me that people are xonvinced our only goal in life is to trick them into sleeping with us. Its sad really, and while thos is stereotypical gay men are classicly the more sensative of blokes too.

Personally, when it comes to people saying ->-bleeped-<- is a mental issuea I think it does have something to do with our brains but not mental health. As someone who struggles from mental health stuff I personally know the difference between "insanity" and feeling disconnect or wronf in your body. But I think its hugely on societies gender roles and expectations and also due to our early decelopment cycle.

I had a friend growing up, she was actually a friend of the family's, even lived with different family members of mine for years as he mother's health deteriorated and then later passed away. Everyone treated her as one of the guys, everyone. She did everything the guys did and she didn't spend time with girls at all. She did in her earlier twenties spend a lot of time with my one female cousin, but still the rest of the time she was with the guys and doing what they did. When she came out in her late twenties as a lesbian everyone pretty much said, Yeah, that makes sense. And besides the normal guys giving other guys a hard time no one said a word and life went on. Then her and my cousin moved in together and the relationship my family had with her for over half of my lifetime ended. She had not changed, and my family knew and accepted her as a lesbian but being in a relationship with my very feminine cousin was too much for my family to handle. What is acceptable and why? I don't know. She moved away then eventually and my cousin is still ostracized. The last two family get togethers her and I spent most of the time she was there enjoying the enormous family disapproval of us and one of those times was my mother's funeral. She never stays long anymore, wonder why. Her sister, the first best friend I ever had, hasn't spoken to either of us for many years.

I am so tired of hearing that we are not real women. Most people feel that way, even many of us. I have been together with friends and one had a car problem and they all look at me. Come on, really?! What do I know about cars? No more than any of them I bet. That doesn't happen anymore, in fact my car was acting stupid recently and I mentioned it while playing cards with those same friends and the one tells her husband and he grabbed my keys and was out to look at it in moments. We hear it here too, all the time how someone is unhappy because they will never be a "real" woman. I am not dismissing their feelings, just really concerned for them and more than a little angry at them. In my life I have never once had anyone say, I am sorry you weren't born a girl, it's not fair. My grandparents grew up in the depression and they had an attitude that was basically, "Oh you cut off your arm. Okay, let me finish here and I will take a look at it. Knock off the crying and moaning, how do you expect me to get this done. I told you I'll be right there." I look at the history of humanity and am grateful beyond belief that, being born trans, I was born now. Anyway, we do all we can and then? What? Are we fake people? No one, whatever they say, looks at some trans women and see a man but when they find out they are trans they refuse to see them as women. Why? We are not a facsimile. Take what you can, I may not know much but I am sure to the bone that our happiness is not the sole reason the planet gets out of bed in the morning.

Here is one reason why I think that there is so much more problem with trans women and it is a two part deal, one male and one female. In any group of males there are only a few at most men competing for alpha male, the whole group knows that the rest will always be under whoever is currently holding the top position. No one is really thinking about them as long as they are exhibiting all of the normal dudely behavior. No one cares if a girl wants to join the class, "Okay sure, take a seat with the rest of the losers, there's lots of room. Hope you don't get offended easily." And for mtfs, being seen as gay is one of the worst things possible for many, many men. Being seen as attracted to someone that everyone perceives as a man in most cases is no different. I have experienced the female side so at least I know that this is accurate for a good many women. For women there is usually an alpha also, but the real competition is for the best men. The bottom can take the man from the top, lol, not usually likely but it can and has happened. Almost all women don't mind transgender women, really that is true. Oh my god, many are fascinated with us though. A beautiful transgender woman is revieled even more than a beautiful cis girl but not by much, competition is competition after all. I think that a great deal of the negative from the female aspect is more from their struggle for equality than anything else and their feeling of losing their few hard won gains to the opposition. 😂😂 Not that women aren't hierarchical, and don't have the ability to be as brutal as men but... I honestly don't think anyone believes it is the same.

As for lgb. Well, I have no clue what the "L" are thinking. I think that in all of the spectrum that there is not a group that I understand less, I can't even offer an opinion. I could guess that it is the same as straight women to the tenth power but that would be speculation only. Gay men may not have won their war, but there is at the least an uneasy truce and they are indifferent to the trans for the most part. They have earned their respite and are enjoying a bit of what they fought for, I can hardly fault them for that. Their fight is not ours and attachment to the trans community is keeping them in a conflict that they are tired of. It may be shortsighted in that some of those men fall under the transgender umbrella, but people have found their new enemy, the temptation to take that opportunity to be in the background is too great to pass up. I know too many bi people to believe that most of them are a part of the community at all. I am not being confrontational, I have many, many bi friends and family members that would be more than willing to stone me if I were. My one niece is a proud and vocal part of the community and I know a few others but for the most part being part of the community is never even mentioned by the others. I personally find that understandable. We are the one group least able to blend in and are certainly getting the most bad press right now. The non community supporters have a limited attention span and many are losing interest with another hugely important agenda sweeping the world. When the ship's food supply is running low, dumping the people who are eating the most food and drawing in the most scavengers is the easiest solution.

I could be way off, I am very tired. Thanks Mr The Cat.
Laters dearies.

Trans women are discriminated against more, and it's definitely linked to misogyny. A trans woman loses social status by moving from male to female, while a trans man gains status by moving from female to male. So a trans woman is dealing with two kinds of discrimination at once--transphobia and misogyny--while a trans man trades in misogyny for transphobia.

That said, although I do envy my trans brothers for having it (slightly) easier than us MTFs, we're all in the same boat together. There's a reason FTMs are welcomed in the trans-feminist community. They have a lot of ->-bleeped-<- to deal with, too.