What do you guys make of this...

Do actors that maintain a capitalist system hold trans-misogyny, among other forms of LGBT discrimination, at the heart of their ideology?

Following that any deviation from a nuclear family-type model is not regarded as economically salient, and therefore met with resistance/abuse.

Sorry if this sounds like a high-school essay type question,

anastasia x

Why would capitalism, if it really existed, be more misogynistic that any other economic system? Culture plays a bigger role and with economics, Pareto always applies. Some things will never change no matter how one shuffles the deck.


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In a sense, capitalism always discriminates against people on the fringe of society. Demand creates supply, and where there is less demand for a product, there will be less supply. Most men wear either suits, or plain jeans and t-shirts, so most of men's fashion revolves around those limited choices. Most women are shorter than men and have smaller feet and narrow shoulders, so clothing for girls with more masculine frames tends to be hard to find. There are enough of us to create demand for some products designed for trans men and women (HRT, surgeries, etc.) but we'll never occupy more than a tiny niche of the market because of how few of us there are.

I suppose one could imagine an economy where, instead of allowing demand to dictate supply, the needs of every citizen would be considered and addressed with an equal share of care and attention. Men would have access to frillier clothes, lingerie, and other, less mainstream styles designed to fit their bodies; more time and energy would be devoted to researching and developing products and services for trans people. Such products would not be produced or distributed in the same manner as products demanded by the majority of society, but would instead be available per request, to be produced and delivered to those who need them. This system would be similar to our current capitalist model; the difference is that, in our "fair capitalist" economy, fringe groups would enjoy the same wide range of options as those at the center of society. Imagine a world where there are more types and styles of prosthetic limbs than there are amputees who need them.

Keep in mind that these additional products would not be produced before being ordered; they would instead be created to order, made only at the fringe consumer's request. We would have a surplus of designs for fringe products, not warehouses full of unused merchandise. Fifty years ago, such a system would have been infeasible, but with modern 3D printing, we can create individual items on demand provided we have a model to build them from.

Mostly, I'm just imagining how easy it would be to find size 12.5 women's shoes in a style I like under that kind of system. I'd just have to wait an extra day or three for my shoes to be delivered.

Sorry if my rant sounds confusing; I just woke up and may have gotten a little carried away.

Interesting question.

Another school of thought thinks the opposite... The conspiracy theory is that trans ideology is being secretly promoted to break up the traditional "nuclear family with 2.5 children." The people who sign up to this kind of thinking are usually against all LGBT rights, not just trans. Amongst those would perhaps be hard-line Christian / Muslim / Jewish (Abrahamic Religions ) fundamentalists ( emphasis on the 'mental' part ) - maybe living in the bible belt of America or the orange flavoured streets of Northern Ireland, or places where Sharia law rules instead of the state and/or is the state law.

Maybe the 1% Elite think the population will be easier to control if it breaks down the traditional family set-up? Who knows what the hidden agenda is by shadow governments and secret think-tanks, none of what happens makes any sense anymore, if it ever did in the first place. If they actually have such an agenda, it's working in the trans community's favour.

Quote from: Gertrude on June 25, 2018, 08:03:49 AM
Why would capitalism, if it really existed, be more misogynistic that any other economic system? Culture plays a bigger role and with economics, Pareto always applies. Some things will never change no matter how one shuffles the deck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

To me, the capitalist system functions better under imperfect information than any other system. Asymmetries in information create divisions in society where discrimination can thrive.

Apologies if that reply is lacking/not overly extensive...getting late

Quote from: DustKitten on June 25, 2018, 02:37:24 PM
In a sense, capitalism always discriminates against people on the fringe of society. Demand creates supply, and where there is less demand for a product, there will be less supply. Most men wear either suits, or plain jeans and t-shirts, so most of men's fashion revolves around those limited choices. Most women are shorter than men and have smaller feet and narrow shoulders, so clothing for girls with more masculine frames tends to be hard to find. There are enough of us to create demand for some products designed for trans men and women (HRT, surgeries, etc.) but we'll never occupy more than a tiny niche of the market because of how few of us there are.

I suppose one could imagine an economy where, instead of allowing demand to dictate supply, the needs of every citizen would be considered and addressed with an equal share of care and attention. Men would have access to frillier clothes, lingerie, and other, less mainstream styles designed to fit their bodies; more time and energy would be devoted to researching and developing products and services for trans people. Such products would not be produced or distributed in the same manner as products demanded by the majority of society, but would instead be available per request, to be produced and delivered to those who need them. This system would be similar to our current capitalist model; the difference is that, in our "fair capitalist" economy, fringe groups would enjoy the same wide range of options as those at the center of society. Imagine a world where there are more types and styles of prosthetic limbs than there are amputees who need them.

Keep in mind that these additional products would not be produced before being ordered; they would instead be created to order, made only at the fringe consumer's request. We would have a surplus of designs for fringe products, not warehouses full of unused merchandise. Fifty years ago, such a system would have been infeasible, but with modern 3D printing, we can create individual items on demand provided we have a model to build them from.

Mostly, I'm just imagining how easy it would be to find size 12.5 women's shoes in a style I like under that kind of system. I'd just have to wait an extra day or three for my shoes to be delivered.

Sorry if my rant sounds confusing; I just woke up and may have gotten a little carried away.

I think supply and demand is an interesting way of looking at it. Yet, (correct me if I'm wrong) that could only amount to neglect, rather than the active discrimination, or anti-trans mentality reflected in the suicide and murder rates of the trans community...

Quote from: JennaBadgyrl on June 25, 2018, 02:39:49 PM
Interesting question.

Another school of thought thinks the opposite... The conspiracy theory is that trans ideology is being secretly promoted to break up the traditional "nuclear family with 2.5 children." The people who sign up to this kind of thinking are usually against all LGBT rights, not just trans. Amongst those would perhaps be hard-line Christian / Muslim / Jewish (Abrahamic Religions ) fundamentalists ( emphasis on the 'mental' part ) - maybe living in the bible belt of America or the orange flavoured streets of Northern Ireland, or places where Sharia law rules instead of the state and/or is the state law.

Maybe the 1% Elite think the population will be easier to control if it breaks down the traditional family set-up? Who knows what the hidden agenda is by shadow governments and secret think-tanks, none of what happens makes any sense anymore, if it ever did in the first place. If they actually have such an agenda, it's working in the trans community's favour.

Taking the traditional family unit to be the actors originally mentioned, I think both statements amount to the same outcome

Females account for the most college and higher degrees in the USA. Females have access to or have the majority of spend in the USA. Things are changing slowly.

Politicians and the military are a male dominated dominion. So too is the corporate board room.

So why does the media and film portray us as stereotypically one way or the other. Well it sells and it is allowed. It is allowed for us to be discriminated against. Woman on the other hand have a lot of clout and things are changing.

So why does it happen? Because the people that are in charge can do what they want to do and no one stops them. I think this is with a lot of the societies and not just in the USA.

I would not put the blame on capitalism, but rather a facet of society much stronger than any love for money. Religion! Most humans are brought up going to church, much of it being fundamentalism. This leads to even basic misogyny, in which women are the servants of men, as it was during the times when the Bible were written. LGBTQ people are considered an absurdity to these types of people. Many of us have faced their pure, raw hatred. Look how LGBTQ people are treated in countries that are not capitalist. Certainly, one cannot blame the love of money for the hateful behaviors of people in those counties.

I think some are conflating economic systems with society and culture. They are different. If you think socialist or communist systems are less discriminatory to fringe people, you'd be mistaken, but in places as such, it's culture. I think because many here live in a republican democracy with a capitalistic (I would call it corporatism/crony capitalism) economy, some may find the economic system an easy target through misunderstanding. In most of our lifetimes we've seen huge strides in the rights of gay/homosexual people and it's not only for law. It's a cultural shift. Same with being trans, but we have further to go. I would also posit, in a true free market system, if we had one, wouldn't be discriminatory in and of itself and probably would be the least so. Where people get into trouble is legislating culture, particularly as a proscription against certain peoples. We see that with some evangelical religions, of all stripes, not just christianity. What I think it comes down to is some of us lack the perspective of the timeframe of change and draw from the circumstances impatience that it's not changing fast enough. Culture (religion is a huge part of it in many places), whether it's corporate or society, it like a hippo on roller skates. It's hard to get moving and once it is, it's hard to change it's direction. We don't get to choose the era we're born into, but we do get to choose how we live and be responsible for that. Right now, that's enough for me.

Quote from: Lady Sarah on June 25, 2018, 06:01:58 PM
I would not put the blame on capitalism, but rather a facet of society much stronger than any love for money. Religion! Most humans are brought up going to church, much of it being fundamentalism. This leads to even basic misogyny, in which women are the servants of men, as it was during the times when the Bible were written. LGBTQ people are considered an absurdity to these types of people. Many of us have faced their pure, raw hatred. Look how LGBTQ people are treated in countries that are not capitalist. Certainly, one cannot blame the love of money for the hateful behaviors of people in those counties.

I wouldn't even call capitalism the love of money, but the ability to pursue one's interests without some authority limiting someone beyond the basics of natural rights. politics, like religion, divides people into two groups: Those that want other people controlled and those that do not. I fall in the latter group.

Quote from: Gertrude on June 25, 2018, 06:44:40 PM
I wouldn't even call capitalism the love of money, but the ability to pursue one's interests without some authority limiting someone beyond the basics of natural rights. politics, like religion, divides people into two groups: Those that want other people controlled and those that do not. I fall in the latter group.

The trouble with unchecked capitalism is that many at the bottom of the money pyramid have no hope of pursuing their own interests, for them just surviving demands all their attention. We now have a class in society called "the working poor" who have to use Food Banks in the UK, because their wages/hours are so limited. This is "Crapitalism" at its worst.

It was noted by UNICEF that both the UK & USA (2 of the richest countries in the world) have the highest child poverty rates, while the Nordic countries which practise some form of controlled capitalism have the lowest.

Quite simply the right-wing have stolen the centre ground of politics and anyone even slightly to the left are labelled as communists, not mild socialists. "Soft Fascism" is another new term which perfectly describes the political course the UK & USA have recently taken. The 2 richest countries are now in a race to the bottom, where corporate greed rules supreme, "profit over people" - and these ideologies now dictate government policies.

The 99% have to fight back and there is a way out - simply quit voting for the same old 2 horse race - Republicans V Democrats in the US and Tories V Labour in the UK. Start voting for minority parties and independent candidates who will put "people over profit" and local voices before party politics. No merit, no vote.

Uncheck checked capitalism? I don't see that at all. Both of those countries have tons of regulations that at times favor some companies and punish others and at other times punish people wanting to pursue their interests in needing the government's permission to make a living and they are far from the worst in terms of pursuing one's interests. We don't have true free market economics anywhere in the world. That said, the unequal distribution of resources exists in all economic systems, especially as the populations scale up. Again, Pareto. The lack of understanding of how stuff works leads to some people wanting some authority to make things right in their eyes, an example of musterbation. There are injustices in the world. Some can be fixed, some can't be fixed 100% Some not even close. The reasons are a bitter pill to swallow for some. If you want real  change, stop voting the left right paradigm. That isn't where change comes from. It's the other axis that matters. Liberty versus authority. Left/right is mostly about authority and whose sense of justiice gets done.