This is just copy pasted from two of my Facebook post from yesterday. WARNING: Harsh insults

QuoteWell, I tried to have dinner at The Red Hen. There are probably 100 people standing around outside along with a dozen cops. I asked one of the officers if things were getting violent when I walked up. He said things have been pretty peaceful. One of the protesters told me I need to repent, one called  me a filthy disgusting animal, one asked if I was a waitress then walked away telling someone I (he) don't work at the restaurant, and one was really nice and told me to watch my step just a second before I almost stepped into a pile of manure then explained that the restaurant was temporarily closed. I'm back in my car, I'm tempted to go back and have a conversation with one (or more) of the protesters.

QuoteI want to clarify something from my last post. I knew what I was walking into. I'm not hurt by the insults thrown at me today. I expected it to some degree. When the guy called me a filthy disgusting animal as I walked away, I actually burst out laughing. I then turned around, gave him a little feminine wave and said bye. I was actually kind of fascinated by the moment. I mean, it was far from the first time, but the look of absolute revulsion on his face was new. I was quite literally a non person in his eyes.

I still wish I had gone back to talk to the ones that weren't quite so aggressively hateful, but I was exhausted from two days on the road. I need to rest up because I have packing to do.

Question though. Why would go eat at a place with protesters? To the point where you have to ask the officers if it has gotten violent? Doesn't seem like some where I'd volunteer to eat.

Because I appreciate that she stood up for people like me. I happened to be traveling through the area and felt it important to support someone who supports us.

Also, I had pepper spray on hand if needed because I was driving through some unfriendly states.

Hello Daisy Jane

I admire you both for laughing at the man (he is the disgusting one) and then waving goodbye and secondly for supporting those who support us.

Good on you, girl.

Hugs

Pamela

If she asked Sanders to leave,  I understand the emotion behind that, but when the gay couple walks into the bakery and is asked to leave, do I then in fairness have to understand their emotion? In my opinion, if you open a business, ask for any of the legal protections that a business might have, then you kind of have to deal with people you find repugnant some times. Was this a refusal of service or a comment of wishing she would eat elsewhere?

Quote from: HappyMoni on June 28, 2018, 07:51:27 AM
If she asked Sanders to leave,  I understand the emotion behind that, but when the gay couple walks into the bakery and is asked to leave, do I then in fairness have to understand their emotion? In my opinion, if you open a business, ask for any of the legal protections that a business might have, then you kind of have to deal with people you find repugnant some times. Was this a refusal of service or a comment of wishing she would eat elsewhere?

Hi Moni,

People like Sanders never experience this type of rejection.  I think it was a good learning lesson for her.  If she's okay with companies not serving LGBT people on religious grounds, then I see no problem with someone demonstrating to her what it's like. 

It seems to me there are a lot of bullies in modern day politics that never get challenged. 

Take care,
Paige

I do agree. They cannot have it both ways. If shop owners are allowed to refuse service to entire groups of people on grounds of their belief system, this should apply to every shop owner. And that includes the owner refusing service to Mrs. Sanders or any other person.

It is actually sad that we even need rules and laws to protect groups. Unfortunately, it is necessary.

And of course, my preference would be for fully equal treatment of every customer. No matter if LGBTQIA+, race, gender and gender identity, skin color, citizenship AND political views. Ideally on the ground of just being human, but I also take laws as long as they treat everyone equally.

I do assume the Red Hen owner knew what she would be getting into and the potential fall out of her actions. My only hope is that any protest remains peaceful.

Quote from: Paige on June 28, 2018, 09:47:14 AM

Quote from: HappyMoni on June 28, 2018, 07:51:27 AM
If she asked Sanders to leave,  I understand the emotion behind that, but when the gay couple walks into the bakery and is asked to leave, do I then in fairness have to understand their emotion? In my opinion, if you open a business, ask for any of the legal protections that a business might have, then you kind of have to deal with people you find repugnant some times. Was this a refusal of service or a comment of wishing she would eat elsewhere?

Hi Moni,

People like Sanders never experience this type of rejection.  I think it was a good learning lesson for her.  If she's okay with companies not serving LGBT people on religious grounds, then I see no problem with someone demonstrating to her what it's like. 

It seems to me there are a lot of bullies in modern day politics that never get challenged. 

Take care,
Paige

I'm of two minds about it... It's true that refusing Sanders from the restaurant is the same sort of treatment that the Trump administration is encouraging others to do to LGBT people, but that's also why it's kind of hypocritical. I'm not sure it's a practically useful guesture, or that it sets a good precedent. I'd rather not have a situation where anyone can refuse service for any reason, and that includes liberal businesses, too; I'm on the naughty list of plenty of liberals for my many cricisms of the Democratic Party. Would those get me barred from the Red Hen? I haven't publicly transitioned yet, so I look like a straight white man. Would that matter? Would they take a look at me and decide I'm a whiny, overpriviledged undesirable, and allow that influence whether they want to serve or not, given that I probably also have political opinions they don't like? Liberal culture hasn't exactly been kind to me in the past.

I'd prefer for every business to serve every customer who walks in, no questions asked.

To those saying that refusing service to Sanders is anything like refusing to bake a cake to a gay couple or serve a black person you're dead wrong. You don't choose to be LGBT or a certain race, ou just are. You do however choose to lie, bully and promote discrimination and the Huckabee family has for years (Chik-a-fil 2012 remember?)

This is not discrimination of who Sanders is, but rather what she chooses to be. Here presence was being a stain and since that restaurant has LGBT and immigrat workers it makes sense they would be uncomfortable to serve someone who has spent her career targeting them. Basically, she's being judged not on the content of her skin (or gender or sexuality or what not) but rather the content of her character. Martin Luther King would be proud.

So, taking personal race, sexual identity, and gender identity out of the picture, if a store with a conservative staff refuses to serve me because they know I choose to espouse pro-LGBT views, what happens then? What if a store with a liberal staff refuses to serve me because they know I strongly dislike both of the Clintons and chose to vote for Bernie Sanders in the 2016 primary?

Perhaps more importantly, how does refusing to serve Sarah Huckabee Sanders actually convince anyone who doesn't already agree with us to switch sides? Perhaps it would have been more constructive to serve her, but make some kind of statement to her while she was there, like the cast of Hamilton did with Mike Pence. If the cast had instead refused to let Pence into the theater, the message wouldn't have been as strong.

I say this not to be contrarian, but because I'm very worried about how things are going to turn out over the next decade if we don't do a better job of outreach and work on our optics.

I never said I agreed or disagreed with what happen. I just merely stated Huckabee Sanders is on the receiving end of what minority's face not beciase of who she is but rather what she does. And she doesn't like it.

In addition, let's not forget that in 2012 VP Biden was asked to leave/not go into a bakery based solely on political grounds. Biden didn't make a stink about it as the Trunp government has. Oddly enough, thatbsame baker was not only NOT called out by the GOP, but was rather introduced at political rallies and given 15 mins of fame.

Just saying, it's ironic seeing people act so hurt by being treated the same way they endorse their opponents or people they simple do not like be treated

Ok, yes, that makes sense.

As much as I think this whole thing was ill-advised, it does floor me that so many social conservatives take offense on the rare occasion that they experience discrimination based on political or religious grounds. I may not think that this is an ideogically consistent thing for LGBT folk to do, but it is consistent with what social conservatives want, it's just aimed at them. If they really want to be able to discriminate against others, they should be prepared to receive it themselves.

Quote from: Lucca on June 28, 2018, 02:46:52 PM
Ok, yes, that makes sense.

As much as I think this whole thing was ill-advised, it does floor me that so many social conservatives take offense on the rare occasion that they experience discrimination based on political or religious grounds. I may not think that this is an ideogically consistent thing for LGBT folk to do, but it is consistent with what social conservatives want, it's just aimed at them. If they really want to be able to discriminate against others, they should be prepared to receive it themselves.

Exactly! For the record I think discrimination is ever good on anyone. That said, I hate it when bullies who make a career bullying complain about their hardships.

Quote from: Paige on June 28, 2018, 09:47:14 AM
Hi Moni,

People like Sanders never experience this type of rejection.  I think it was a good learning lesson for her.  If she's okay with companies not serving LGBT people on religious grounds, then I see no problem with someone demonstrating to her what it's like. 

It seems to me there are a lot of bullies in modern day politics that never get challenged. 

Take care,
Paige

I despise what she stands for, but the rules should be the same for all. Discrimination is wrong in either direction. Plus, her ideas on discrimination should not be a standard we adapt. We should be better than that. Believe me, I am tempted to hate, well, I guess I do hate some, but this continuing escalation of hate is not gonna end well. Challenge them yes, but we have to keep the integrity of our morals. My opinion.
Moni
I fully agree with your emotions on it Paige.

I have very mixed feelings about this whole thing. I support civil disobedience against an oppressive government and believe that the government individuals involved should face personal consequences for their actions. There are legal things you can discriminate for (ex: what a person wears, no shoes vs shoes) and illegal things like gender.

Politics, ethics, lying, even lawbreaking etc seems to fall into a grey area and one would think the owner of the establishment should have the right to refuse a customer they simply do not like for these reasons. However, that is a pretty slippery slope and it divides an already divided populace further. We are already at some of these people's homes protesting etc.

If someone posts "no trans people allowed" that is clearly breaking the law in my state, but what if they simply are in a bigotted mood that day and decide they just don't like me, is that a valid reason for not allowing me to conduct commerce? It is not the same comparison I get it, but in some ways it sort of is. If you serve some of the population a delicious salad then you should probably serve the entire population the same, as long as they are not disruptive or causing other problems.

I had heard a bar owner around here refusing to serve a customer in a MAGA hat, I understand his issue but again very mixed feelings.

Quote from: AnneK on June 28, 2018, 04:04:56 PM
My understanding is that the owner was exercising her right to express disapproval of the current government, which is considerably different from banning someone for religion, LGBQT status, skin colour etc.  What I find unbelievable is the response from Trump's supporters.  He's formed an agenda based on bigotry and his supporters seem to think no one has rights, if they challenge him.  In Canada, we're currently getting a load of nonsense over trade, where Trump makes up his own "facts" and then tries to punish those who he thinks harmed him.  He's totally off the wall on so many things, it's clear he's not fit to be president.  Just yesterday, I heard him attacking Hilary Clinton.  Wasn't that election almost 2 years ago?  Why is he still going on about it?  He has a crowd of followers, just as bigoted as him, and he's whipping them up, just as Hitler did with his Nazi followers.

As for Sarah Saunders, I don't know how she can live with herself, given all the support she gives to his blatant lies etc.

The mid terms can't come soon enough, to limit the damage he's causing.  He's a disgrace to the country.

"Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies)[1][2] is an internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1";[2][3] that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Quote from: Devlyn on June 28, 2018, 06:27:30 PM
"Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies)[1][2] is an internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1";[2][3] that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

How long of a thread? How many posts to Adolf? I want to know the math, and does this mean we should switch analogies to Mussolini or Stalin? 

  Topic is locked. The discussion has run it's course and has attracted the usual political bashing