Hi,
I am Crist, I am new here (this is my fourth post), I am struggling with very strong depression and I don't know what to do so I am asking for some advise. I could say that I am between non-binary or very close to a trans-woman.
My main problem is body dysphoria and I think that most of my depression comes from there. I have tried several things already: I am in my forth therapist and I have taking different medicines and treatments but no luck so far. It has been almost five years since my depression started. I understood I was trans by reading some post online. I was euphoric for a couple of weeks but after I learned the limitations of what can be done to change my body my mood drop and hasn't been well for more than a couple of weeks at a time ever since then. I am still very bad right now but luckily not in my lowest.
Regarding my body, I have been told that I should be able to be passable several times and I even saw a cis-woman with similar proportions as mine. That didn't help though. My thoughts went from "I will never look as a woman" to "Even if I get to be passable I will be unacceptably unattractive (to my own standards, I understand that there is people that find masculine looking woman attractive).
I know that is people that have it worse than me and if that is you, I am sorry for complaining for a problem that might seem to small for you. I am still doing it because I am suffering and I don't know what else to do. Again I am sorry.
Because of this mindset of mine I don't really feel motivated to transition. I have the impression that it won't really help me mood-wise and I will just end up having surgery after surgery as soon as I can afford them (not that I can afford one right now and is possible that I will never will) and/or keep hurting about my body all the time. I am not really encouraged by the social aspect either. I am a big introvert so, even though it will be great for people to stop calling me sir, I don't think that changing would have such of positive impact on me, I know that there are big negatives with being percived as a woman in this society.
Because of this lack of motivation and my current state I believe that I need to address my feelings towards my image in order to move forward. Let me list what I have tried and hasn't work to see if you have different ideas:

- The ideas of "All women are beautiful", "Women come in all shapes an sizes", "You just have to play with the cards you been given", "Cis-woman struggle with body image all the time too"... I am not sure why this kind of statements do not work for me. My guess is some sort of inferiority (perhaps superiority instead) complex or something similar. I feel that if am not better than most people (or even the best in some cases) then I am worthless. I try to tell myself "No one is better than anyone else" or "It is shallow to think that attractiveness makes a person more valuable" but I seem to respond with "Human value might be subjective, a social construct and exists only in peoples mind but that doesn't make it less real" or "I don't have to conform with other peoples ideas of what is honorable and feel ashamed of what I feel is important". I suppose that might make you think that I am not a very nice person, so I would understand if you don't want to help me. I have a new therapist so perhaps she knows how to deal with that issue. I fear I might be to stubborn for that though.

- Trying to move forward with my transition. I as mentioned before, my lack of motivation and my believe that the end result would not be good enough are big obstacles. Sometimes I think that even if I am only able to change small things, at least it will be less things that give me pain. The problem with that is that for me it seems that the negatives outweigh the positives. The things I find as negative are: genital atrophy (this is ones of the reasons I don't of myself as a full trans-woman), decrease of libido, changes in the ways I feel sexual attraction (I heard it goes from visual to emotional), possible change in what kind of people I find attractive. I elaborated in some of these consequences in my previous post "Will hormones help someone like me" and I am grateful for the responses. For the first two I even learn about a potential way to decrease their effect. However, I don't think that those post help much. Maybe I am too stubborn but I know I don't want to loose some of the few things that I still enjoy. Sometimes I don't enjoy anything but at least I have some breathers in occations.
I also know that there is the option of transition without hormones. Sadly I find that even less appealing. The idea of putting two pieces of plastic in front of my chest makes me feel that I will be just wearing a disguise. I also have the impression that my body will look even less natural.

- Not transitioning and continue as I am is not an option, 5 years of depression support that conclusion.

Thank you for reading so far. I would greatly appreciate any recommendations you might have.

I wish you the best,
Crist

It is a conundrum. We all have ideas and goals. What you may find is once you start your path will wander all over the place but each step forward will make you feel
Better to take the next step. No one can tell you haow it will be for you. We don't know how it will be for us until it happens. In December of 2017 I swore to my wife I would never pass or wear a dress or have long hair and makeup. Well that lasted a month and three months later I threw away all my male cloths and have not looked back. Don't sell yourself short and talk to us here and read everything you can that posted. It will clean lots of questions

Quote from: Crist on June 17, 2018, 03:21:30 PM
Hi,
I am Crist, I am new here (this is my fourth post), I am struggling with very strong depression and I don't know what to do so I am asking for some advise. I could say that I am between non-binary or very close to a trans-woman.
My main problem is body dysphoria and I think that most of my depression comes from there. I have tried several things already: I am in my forth therapist and I have taking different medicines and treatments but no luck so far. It has been almost five years since my depression started. I understood I was trans by reading some post online. I was euphoric for a couple of weeks but after I learned the limitations of what can be done to change my body my mood drop and hasn't been well for more than a couple of weeks at a time ever since then. I am still very bad right now but luckily not in my lowest.
Regarding my body, I have been told that I should be able to be passable several times and I even saw a cis-woman with similar proportions as mine. That didn't help though. My thoughts went from "I will never look as a woman" to "Even if I get to be passable I will be unacceptably unattractive (to my own standards, I understand that there is people that find masculine looking woman attractive).
I know that is people that have it worse than me and if that is you, I am sorry for complaining for a problem that might seem to small for you. I am still doing it because I am suffering and I don't know what else to do. Again I am sorry.
Because of this mindset of mine I don't really feel motivated to transition. I have the impression that it won't really help me mood-wise and I will just end up having surgery after surgery as soon as I can afford them (not that I can afford one right now and is possible that I will never will) and/or keep hurting about my body all the time. I am not really encouraged by the social aspect either. I am a big introvert so, even though it will be great for people to stop calling me sir, I don't think that changing would have such of positive impact on me, I know that there are big negatives with being percived as a woman in this society.
Because of this lack of motivation and my current state I believe that I need to address my feelings towards my image in order to move forward. Let me list what I have tried and hasn't work to see if you have different ideas:

- The ideas of "All women are beautiful", "Women come in all shapes an sizes", "You just have to play with the cards you been given", "Cis-woman struggle with body image all the time too"... I am not sure why this kind of statements do not work for me. My guess is some sort of inferiority (perhaps superiority instead) complex or something similar. I feel that if am not better than most people (or even the best in some cases) then I am worthless. I try to tell myself "No one is better than anyone else" or "It is shallow to think that attractiveness makes a person more valuable" but I seem to respond with "Human value might be subjective, a social construct and exists only in peoples mind but that doesn't make it less real" or "I don't have to conform with other peoples ideas of what is honorable and feel ashamed of what I feel is important". I suppose that might make you think that I am not a very nice person, so I would understand if you don't want to help me. I have a new therapist so perhaps she knows how to deal with that issue. I fear I might be to stubborn for that though.

- Trying to move forward with my transition. I as mentioned before, my lack of motivation and my believe that the end result would not be good enough are big obstacles. Sometimes I think that even if I am only able to change small things, at least it will be less things that give me pain. The problem with that is that for me it seems that the negatives outweigh the positives. The things I find as negative are: genital atrophy (this is ones of the reasons I don't of myself as a full trans-woman), decrease of libido, changes in the ways I feel sexual attraction (I heard it goes from visual to emotional), possible change in what kind of people I find attractive. I elaborated in some of these consequences in my previous post "Will hormones help someone like me" and I am grateful for the responses. For the first two I even learn about a potential way to decrease their effect. However, I don't think that those post help much. Maybe I am too stubborn but I know I don't want to loose some of the few things that I still enjoy. Sometimes I don't enjoy anything but at least I have some breathers in occations.
I also know that there is the option of transition without hormones. Sadly I find that even less appealing. The idea of putting two pieces of plastic in front of my chest makes me feel that I will be just wearing a disguise. I also have the impression that my body will look even less natural.

- Not transitioning and continue as I am is not an option, 5 years of depression support that conclusion.

Thank you for reading so far. I would greatly appreciate any recommendations you might have.

I wish you the best,
Crist

I think you've answered your own questions, transitioning is not something one should be talked into; if you don't want to transition for whatever reasons, then that is completely okay.

Best wishes😊

Quote from: Crist on June 17, 2018, 03:21:30 PM
- Not transitioning and continue as I am is not an option, 5 years of depression support that conclusion.

You're overthinking this and it looks like a huge problem that you will never be able to address. The transition is a number of small steps and if at anytime you feel it's wrong, you can stop or back off until you reach the point where your comfortable with yourself. From what you have written, it's doesn't sound like you have had much if any part time experience. I would suggest you attempt to put together work on your image and spend some time in the public. Most likely you can contact others if needed in your LGBT community for support until your able to appears in public by yourself. Even though you you feel you have body dysphoria, seeing yourself dressed and appearing feminine can help reduce your dysphoria.

Quote
I am Crist, I am new here (this is my fourth post), I am struggling with very strong depression and I don't know what to do so I am asking for some advise. I could say that I am between non-binary or very close to a trans-woman.

I think if you have gender dysphoric ideations that lead to severe depression you should explore ways to treat them with your GP who will refer you to a specialist.

Quote from: Crist on June 17, 2018, 03:21:30 PM
- The ideas of "All women are beautiful", "Women come in all shapes an sizes", "You just have to play with the cards you been given", "Cis-woman struggle with body image all the time too"... I am not sure why this kind of statements do not work for me. My guess is some sort of inferiority (perhaps superiority instead) complex or something similar.

You can't see what hasn't started to grow, or don't make assumptions regarding your attractiveness post-HRT.

Quote
...changes in the ways I feel sexual attraction (I heard it goes from visual to emotional), possible change in what kind of people I find attractive.

Sexuality is something I tend to not concern myself with, it's dynamic and you should let it explore you rather getting hung up on who you might fall for.

Quote
The things I find as negative are: genital atrophy (this is ones of the reasons I don't of myself as a full trans-woman)...

Genital atrophy (at least in the way you perceive it) is something I'm not sure I can help you with, I'm repulsed by mine so anything to get rid of them in any way is kind of a blessing.

Depression isn't easy question to answer. That's why I always recommend you need to talk to Behavior Health specialist to get your mind clear with all those questions. After my two sessions with my Therapist, she was suggesting since I am was so miserable because I just suppress my Transgender for all those years. If I don't accept who I am, then I will be living miserable and effects everyone around me.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Just to say, genital atrophy, libido loss and sexual attraction may not be affected. I looked into hrt a lot before I got my prescription and some people report no atrophy or libido change. I have heard atrophy is more from disuse because the muscles weaken once you stop getting spontaneous erections if you don't use it otherwise. I am no expert myself, but everyone is different and it is always possible to stop hormones so talk with an expert and learn about your options and also consider other things to try and help. Spending $20 at a thrift store takes little time and commitment but may help a lot. For me just buying dollar store panties that no one else can see made me more body congruent


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

Sweetie, it sounds to me like you identified the reason you're feeling the way you are in the very first sentence of your post.

Quote from: Crist on June 17, 2018, 03:21:30 PM
Hi,
I am Crist, I am new here (this is my fourth post), I am struggling with very strong depression and I don't know what to do so I am asking for some advise.

As someone who has struggled with depression on and off through most of their life, I'm kinda used to the symptoms of it. It makes you feel like nothing you ever do will be good enough. That life isn't worth trying at. The condition itself makes you feel like you don't even know why you're bothering. Combine that with low self esteem and you have a toxic little cocktail inside your head which makes you see, and look for, the worst possible outcome in everything. Everything around you goes through a filter of confirmation bias which only makes you feel worse. You stop seeing the positive and focus only on the negative.

My honest opinion is that you should try and work on these symptoms before addressing the cause. Because they're clouding your mind and not allowing you to see things clearly. From reading your post, it seems to me that you have extremely low self esteem and a very low opinion of yourself. In which case, nothing you try will likely make you feel better, because that little voice in your head will tell you it just isn't good enough.

Have you tried Cognitive Behavioural Therapy? It's a way of getting you to change the way you think about things, in order to affect your emotional responses towards them. It can be quite useful for treating depression. I've used it myself.

I do believe you can get past this, sweetie. The depression and negative self-talk isn't you. It's something that's happening to you. And it can be overcome. I believe in you, okay? Don't give up. *extra big hug*

Sephirah is correct about depression and self hate.

I would like to elaborate on self hate. I speak about myself.
At an early age I shared who I am with my Mom and learned I was very different that others. Things got very bad very quick. It was like dividing my mind into another person. That person was cruel to me to keep me inline. A stranger could not possible be as mean to me as I was to myself.

Living was hell. Over a period of time my suicidal ideation went from planning to standing tall building roofs or rail road bridges but I never chose to go the last little bit. December 2012 the self hate was so bad and sleep so little I started to do impulsive attempts of suicide. The pain was too much to bare.

I got help to deal with my self hate and depression and I ultimately transitioned and completely changed my life.

Self hate was something I created to keep myself from being me. This went on until I had to be me. Everything I had constructed in my life came crashing down and I had to rebuild from zero.

Loss of libido, yup, to a degree. I had GCS and atrophy of genitals was not an issue; I am intersexed and had micro penis and very small genitals. I would say reasonable expectations rule the transition. If you are 45 and transition you will not look 18. Although I was having dental work and the assistant asked my age and I said 56. She said that is not fair, you do not have any wrinkles and you look 40.

The reason I transitioned is because I am a woman and pretending to be a man was killing me. Do I still have depression, yes, but I would access it as a level 3 now when it was a level 10. I never try to kill myself. I still think about it every day but in passing for moments. I have not put a gun to my head for 3 or 4 years. Best of all I like me. I like how I treat others and I like the changes in my body and face. I like that I do not have genital dysphoria. I still am envious of beautiful woman as other woman are.

Having female genitals, boobs and hair and not being overweight (finally, just below BMI of 26 but I have a lot of muscle from exercise) is fantastic, for me. I love putting on light makeup and wearing cloths that fit my mood. You know, the last two days I felt so fantastic it is not funny. That never happened before.

Transitioning is serious. Do it if you need to but do not fool yourself with self hate and excuses. You are who you are. If you need help to change the self speak then start with help first. Take baby steps but do something to address your depression, transition aside.

Quote from: Crist on June 17, 2018, 03:21:30 PM
I am in my forth therapist.

I'm curious. Have you discussed your gender issues with all 4 therapists and if so what were their recommendations?

Hi all,
thank you for comments
I have just come back, my depression has been keeping from doing so.
I haven't read all your messages, I will get back to you as soon as I do.
thank you again

Be strong crist and feel free to PM if you want to talk

Hi all,
I will list the things I tried already and the results I had to see whether you have other ideas.

Hospitalization and intensive outpatient programs: They thought me things like CBT, DBT, art therapy, music therapy, mindfulness and some other stuff with names that I don't remember right now. At first it helped, I was feeling better for a couple of weeks but then I went down and tried one of those programs again. The last time I did, it help, but I was miserable again 2 days later.

Wearing women clothes in public: Around half the time I go to work like that or to therapy. I have done it since March, I think, and I am still doing it now. This improved my mood for a couple days to a week, but then made things worse. Sure I still have some moments when I feel joy then people call me Mam or something, but it does last more that a couple of minutes. The problem is that now my mood does change at all when using dresses and stuff and sometimes I feel even more uncomfortable when wearing male clothes than what I did before I started wearing the female ones.

Psychological therapy: Out of the four therapist I have seen, three have experience with trans people or specialized in queer problems. Funnily enough, the one that didn't was the one that make feel the best, but I was comfortable with him and we had some insurance issues as well. This person let me tell myself that I was a fake woman and worked from there to make me feel better. With the last therapist I felt euphoria for a day when she told me that she was willing to right me a letter to start hormones but a week later I was feeling even worse than before.

Drugs: I don't think they had help at all but one time I tried to take one away (with doctor supervision of course) and I started to feel worse.

TMS: This it the thing that I felt had make me feel the best. I finished with therapy last week and I haven't had suicidal thoughts for a couple of weeks now. My depression is still bad but better than before I started the therapy.

As of right now, I am somewhat bad, not too bad, but whenever I see or hear either a trans-woman or a cis-woman I feel a lot of pain. Either from envy, if I think they look ok, or despair if they don't, thinking that I would end up looking like that. I am actually more sensitive for people referring as male. There was one occasion that I could eat in a cafeteria and had to take my food home because I was feeling that I was about to cry.

My current therapist has seen a lot of trans people but she says that she has not met someone like me. She seem unsure about to do to help me.

I haven't tried ECT yet. The problem with that therapy is that I have been told it would make it much harder for me to work while I am taking it and I had read of people that had lost a lot of they cognitive abilities because of that.

Also, no hormones yet either. I feel pushed to do it. Not by people but by the circumstances since I don't know what else to do. I feel at this point that at best they will turn me into a fake or defective woman. They could help me fool every one into thinking that I am actually a woman but not myself.

Does any of you have any idea of what else I can try?

Thank you,
Crist



Donna,
Thank you for the offer, I will keep it mind.
Best,
Crist

I know it is weird that I was so happy when I was told that I could take hormones but now I don't like the idea too much.
I suppose I am divided on how I feel about that.

Something struck me in your first post, sweetie. And I'd like to ask you a question if that's okay?

Regarding this sentence:

Quote from: Crist on June 17, 2018, 03:21:30 PMMy guess is some sort of inferiority (perhaps superiority instead) complex or something similar. I feel that if am not better than most people (or even the best in some cases) then I am worthless.

Why do you feel that is?

For some reason this feels important to me. That it's come from somewhere. And it's something that's holding you back. Why do you feel that you need to be better than most people? Was there a time in your past where you weren't, and you were hurt because of it? Did someone expect you to be better than people around you? Your parents maybe?

Sometimes, things we've been through in our lives can leave long-lasting ramifications, sweetie. Out of date scripts that we read through constantly to tell us we aren't good enough, or will never be good enough. I have a feeling this is the case with you.

Unless your totally non functional, I would stay as far away from ECT as possible. I talked with somebody who received early ECT and while it temporarily reset the brain, the effects don't appear to last over the long term. In addition, there is the risk of additional lasting complications.

If you were offered HRT, one solution that has worked for some on the site is to fully suppress testosterone and then introduce a low to medium level of estradiol. Over the short term (6-8 weeks), changes should be minimal and if HRT isn't for you, you should know pretty quickly.

Thank you for the suggestion Dena, I will ask my doctors about it.

Sephirah,
Thank you for the interest.
I don't know about the origen of the feeling you cote.
I didn't have anyone telling me that I needed to be better, or at least that I remember. I was bullied as a kid but I believe that it was because I had very short temper.
This doesn't only applies to my image, but to anything that I find valuable. Whenever I am aware of people that I perceive as better than me, I feel worthless.

I thought about for a while but I couldn't come up with something else to write. Again, thank you for the interest.
Best,
Cristobal

Quote from: Crist on July 26, 2018, 01:25:14 PM
Sephirah,
Thank you for the interest.
I don't know about the origen of the feeling you cote.
I didn't have anyone telling me that I needed to be better, or at least that I remember. I was bullied as a kid but I believe that it was because I had very short temper.
This doesn't only applies to my image, but to anything that I find valuable. Whenever I am aware of people that I perceive as better than me, I feel worthless.

Sweetie, that might be the cause right there. The part I've highlighted in bold.

The thing is, there is no justification for being bullied. By anyone. None whatsoever. And the second you start to think it's your fault, that you somehow deserved it, then it makes the whole thing even worse. You aren't a victim, okay? People have to make a choice to do that. They have to make a choice to take out their insecurities on someone else. The target of their bullying doesn't get to make that choice. No matter what they do or who they are.

But the thing with bullying is that it can put messages in people's heads. Very long term, not at all productive messages. When someone bullies you, they do it from a position of perceived power. That they're somehow better than you. That something in their lives gives them an advantage over you, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do it.

Sometimes that message can stay with a person long into adulthood, Cristobal. Long after we think it doesn't matter anymore. Something to think about sweetie... is that if someone bullied you when you were younger, then maybe in your mind you saw them as better than you, and it made you feel worthless. And because of that it's something you carry into later life. Something you can't let go of. It's possible you still feel the same emotional response whenever you see someone who you think is "better than you". Your self defense mechanisms kick in and you go right back to that time you were being bullied. Those feelings of worthlessness.

If so, then I would say that this springs from low self esteem. And feelings of low self worth. If someone can make you hate yourself by you thinking they're more powerful than you are, then those feelings can remain and apply to anyone you meet later on in life which you perceive in the same way. And in that case... sweetie I think you need to work on this first. And try and get past it, before you can start to feel somewhat better about yourself.

The subconscious mind doesn't work in logic, Crist. It works in emotion. It works in how things make you feel. Those feelings can be more powerful than any logic we can come up with on the surface. Emotion is like instinct. It drives you to do things without wasting the time trying to rationalise something or think it through. It's the most primal of all human facets. And something that can underlie a lot of more "surface level" issues.

*big hug*

Quote from: Sephirah on July 26, 2018, 04:28:21 PM
The subconscious mind doesn't work in logic, Crist. It works in emotion. It works in how things make you feel. Those feelings can be more powerful than any logic we can come up with on the surface. Emotion is like instinct. It drives you to do things without wasting the time trying to rationalise something or think it through. It's the most primal of all human facets. And something that can underlie a lot of more "surface level" issues.

*big hug*

@Crist

Hi Cristobal,

I really agree with what Sephirah wrote, all of it, but particularly the paragraph above. I read through everything you have written and I would like to make a few comments and suggestions.

I believe you might be dealing with some issues that are outside of gender dysphoria, and I can't help feeling that you really need to come to terms with those things first before you try to deal with your gender transition path.

From what you have written, I believe you have a very high degree of empathy/sympathy towards other people AND yourself. This is causing you to heavily analyse your own thought process, which you have done to such a degree as to fold in back on itself and you get lost in abstract thoughts about issues like 'human rights' 'beauty of women' and whether things are social constructs to be believed and followed etc etc. - Give yourself a break from your worries and your anxiety.  When you find yourself analyzing concepts - stop! - remind yourself your having a break from that for a while so your mind can rest. Your mind needs to have a big rest to recover from this anxiety you have been experiencing. Once you have done this, your mind will be clearer and will function better. This will allow you to make clear decisions.

Your mind needs a break/holiday from the worries you have placed in it.

Listen to relaxing positive music (or none), tv/movies that are positive and uplifting. (or none)

Exercise is one of the best proven ways to relax your mind, because also, later on, it helps you sleep better.

I do all of these things myself, because I also suffer boughts of depression brought on by severe anxiety caused by over analyzing stuff.  (a vicious cycle that only I can stop )

I wish you well /Big Hug

Sonja.