I know thats a lot of trans in one sentence but I caught myself doing this: I would see people call themselves trans (especially on the internet) that seemed cis as far I could tell: No HRT, no voice therapy or effort into sounding female, masculine or gender neutral clothes, no female mannorisms ... basically the only difference was one day they said they started calling themselves she instead of he. I always used to be resentful of these people thinking they were imposters or just confused. How could you possibly have transitioned without actually doing all the hard work? "I" know "I" am trans because I put lots of hard work and time into it: I'm on HRT spent many hours in therapy and group therapy, changed my mannerisms, always dress female and put lots of effort in make up and clothes endured the pain of laser hair removal while "you" on the other hand just decided one day everyone should call you she. Thats not fair "you" are an imposter!

But then I had a relization: I have a trans friend who is older and very feminine but other then a skirt she is male. She has just started her journey like me. I kept asking her: "when are you going to start HRT?" "Are you excited to start transitioning?" Then she said to me "I might not start HRT as I feel like since I have come out and started being honest with myself the dysphoria and everything else has gone away." I was very happy for her and understand why she doesn't want to start complicated medical procedures or even HRT as she is older and well passed the age of being able to get surgery safely.

But her age has nothing to do with it. She is no more or less trans, or female even, than me, in fact in many ways she is more female. I know with other things we don't like to see people who haven't gone through the time and effort to become something that we ourselves had to work hard for. But being trans is not about having estrogen, boobs, long hair or make up. It's about accepting who you are, going through the mental changes, and being honest and "out" with the world. Remember we were born trans and at some point we were all 100% male, doesn't matter if it took five years or 80 to get there.

I see transphobic bs from some TS/TG. Yesterday I saw a post on FB where someone posted they weren't CD and a real woman, not a fetish. To this person, CDs are fetish freaks. Why people need to break down into smaller exclusive tribes gets beyond me at times and pointing it out just brings derision on myself.


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That's a great thing to realize Lexi. Each of us has their own path and where for instance I put the most emphasis on my internal state and dress as best I can femme, I don't have the $$ or time to undergo facial or body electrolysis at this point.

I don't put anything on women who achieve high passability. I'm not personally comfortable around men so whatever a trans woman's looks, if they exude a lot of masculine energy that's not someone I'm going to want to spend time with. No shade, I also elect to not spend time with 99% of the male-identified population and a fair bit of the female-identified. I'm really picky about who I spend time with, that's also a choice.

Transgender is a spectrum for a reason. Some may be happy cross dressing, others need all the surgeries etc. There are people in the middle (I'd put myself in the middleish). 'I'm more trans than thou' is kind of self defeating because when you get down to it, who really wants to go through all this anyway? I'd much rather have just been born in the right body in the first place.

Trans is not a choice a person who could avoid it makes. In my mind its not even a choice because at the heart of life is being comfortable in your skin. That's a different place for us all.

Quote from: krobinson103 on July 31, 2018, 02:55:56 PM
Transgender is a spectrum for a reason. Some may be happy cross dressing, others need all the surgeries etc. There are people in the middle (I'd put myself in the middleish). 'I'm more trans than thou' is kind of self defeating because when you get down to it, who really wants to go through all this anyway? I'd much rather have just been born in the right body in the first place.

Trans is not a choice a person who could avoid it makes. In my mind its not even a choice because at the heart of life is being comfortable in your skin. That's a different place for us all.

I tried that logic and got voted down. Some people never get over tribal BS.


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Quote from: Gertrude on July 31, 2018, 08:21:24 AM
I see transphobic bs from some TS/TG. Yesterday I saw a post on FB where someone posted they weren't CD and a real woman, not a fetish. To this person, CDs are fetish freaks. Why people need to break down into smaller exclusive tribes gets beyond me at times and pointing it out just brings derision on myself.

Here are reasons for being tribal. Not that I don't get what you're saying, I agree, it's frustrating.

The women's / lesbian movement needed exclusive spaces at one point because we needed places without the influence of the patriarchy ... ok without the direct influence.

For a long time and still in some circles trans women weren't generally accepted by cis women, we needed safe spaces.

The nature of these things changes with time. There are far fewer lesbian bars than there used to be and most people I know attribute this to women don't go in for 'bar culture' the way men do (sustaining a huge economy of gay male businesses) and today in most places we are accepted and safe out in the rest of the world so those businesses are no longer needed

One of the most intriguing variations I see on this are people who steadfastly insist that they are NOT transgender, in spite of obviously being under the umbrella definition we use here.

I sat near someone at a dinner event who routinely presents as female, including for retail therapy, uses a female name while dressed, indicate that they feel better, more relaxed when dressed, but...  They insist that they are NOT transgender, although they readily acknowledge me as transgender.

I did not press, but it appears that they considered transgender to refer only to those who are doing or have done a medical transition.

As we know, much of the transgender population never undergoes a medical transition, and many medical transitioners never undergo gender confirmation or other surgeries for their transition.  We are a very diverse population in terms of our needs and paths in life.

Quote from: SadieBlake on July 31, 2018, 05:24:11 PM
Here are reasons for being tribal. Not that I don't get what you're saying, I agree, it's frustrating.

The women's / lesbian movement needed exclusive spaces at one point because we needed places without the influence of the patriarchy ... ok without the direct influence.

For a long time and still in some circles trans women weren't generally accepted by cis women, we needed safe spaces.

The nature of these things changes with time. There are far fewer lesbian bars than there used to be and most people I know attribute this to women don't go in for 'bar culture' the way men do (sustaining a huge economy of gay male businesses) and today in most places we are accepted and safe out in the rest of the world so those businesses are no longer needed

That was then. You'd think they'd have enough intelligence to figure out that they are being what they don't like and it's making your bones if you will on someone else's expense or cutting someone down to lift yourself up. It makes no sense other than they have more issues than I or probably most therapists can fix.

It is human nature to set up artificial bars.  And look up or down from that bar to judge others.

In my case, doing anything risky to pass is silly.  My gender issues come from genuinely looking like a girl even though I'm a guy according to societies rules.  Seriously, what can you do when you have a high pitched voice, no visible Adam's apple, and have a really great figure for a girl?  5' 3" 32-26-32?  Even the 32AA bra size means nothing because that is normal for my race!  OTOH, how can you not have issues if you are constantly mis-gendered?  Even though I'm in my 50s I've never been able to get my weight above 115 lbs.

As a young adult, just moved away from home, I actually had a guy take me aside in the mall and tell me I was shopping like a woman.  He carefully explained how a guy was supposed shop!  In that same mall a Brooks Brothers SA told me the couldn't sell me a suit, and suggest I consider doing something else. This was in the late 80s.

Cindy made one of her truly great posts about seeing a patient about a cancer consultation and unfortunately the post isn't visible any more. The person questioned Cindy as to if she was the transgender person that she had heard about and after Cindy confirmed it, the patient opened up. The patient was a MTF who hid the truth her entire life but didn't want to be treated for cancer and only wanted to be referred to by her chosen name and talk about herself. She only shared her secret with Cindy and other than that, took her secret to her grave. She had every right to the title Transwoman even though she never took any action toward treatment. Just the price she paid living with the dysphoria entitled her to that right.

We can never know how others feel about themselves and so we need to give them the benefit of the doubt. For all we know the life they lived could have been far worst than anything we experienced and the only way for us to know is for them to tell their story. It's best not to judge but if you are, make sure you learn the full story first.

+100


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I've thought a bit about this,  and to me, it seems to be a confusion cause by transgender being an umbrella term. For most, dysphoria seems to be caused by gender expectations: clothing, mannerism, tastes and hobbies. That is what I would call transgender in its base meaning. For other, and I include myself in this, it is about the body. I don'the have trouble with my social role, but with my primary, secondary and tertiary sexual caracteristics. As such, I appear as a cis person and will until/if I undergo transition.

Of course,  both definitions also often overlap. Alas, this is my understanding and rationalization of this, but I am fairly new to anything about being trans.

Quote from: EveVT on July 31, 2018, 10:25:41 PM
I've thought a bit about this,  and to me, it seems to be a confusion cause by transgender being an umbrella term. For most, dysphoria seems to be caused by gender expectations: clothing, mannerism, tastes and hobbies. That is what I would call transgender in its base meaning. For other, and I include myself in this, it is about the body. I don'the have trouble with my social role, but with my primary, secondary and tertiary sexual caracteristics. As such, I appear as a cis person and will until/if I undergo transition.

Of course,  both definitions also often overlap. Alas, this is my understanding and rationalization of this, but I am fairly new to anything about being trans.

IMO dysphoria comes from being someone you're not. It's the pain of inauthenticity. How gender is expressed is largely a social construct but, gender internal is neurological and innate. We're born with this. If we lived in a society that accepted trans as a normal human condition, we'd adjust to it sooner being able to be authentic from a young age. Instead our parents indoctrination gets passed on to us and in many cases twisted by their own demons and crazy beliefs and interpretations. It's going to get better and it already has, but for those of us that are over a certain age, we've wasted a lot of life in turmoil and unhappiness.  The tribe or collective is often wrong and often crushes the individual.


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Quote from: EveVT on July 31, 2018, 10:25:41 PM
I've thought a bit about this,  and to me, it seems to be a confusion cause by transgender being an umbrella term. For most, dysphoria seems to be caused by gender expectations: clothing, mannerism, tastes and hobbies. That is what I would call transgender in its base meaning. For other, and I include myself in this, it is about the body. I don'the have trouble with my social role, but with my primary, secondary and tertiary sexual caracteristics. As such, I appear as a cis person and will until/if I undergo transition.

Of course,  both definitions also often overlap. Alas, this is my understanding and rationalization of this, but I am fairly new to anything about being trans.

@EveVT  I think you'e entirely correct. " confusion cause by transgender being an umbrella term"  this is part of it, the transgender community is a very wide rainbow, the other IMO seems to be a prejudice found in all humans at varying levels, and in all groups of people.

Sonja.

Congrats, you levelled up! There is a joke: what's the difference between a crossdressers and a transgender person? About a year. /rimshot

Seriously though, 20 years ago I was trying to figure things out, and,all I found were cd/tv/sissy resources. I didn't fit there. There *is* a difference. But! One is not better than the other. Just, different.

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Quote from: Gertrude on July 31, 2018, 10:36:27 PM
IMO dysphoria comes from being someone you're not. It's the pain of inauthenticity. How gender is expressed is largely a social construct but, gender internal is neurological and innate. We're born with this. If we lived in a society that accepted trans as a normal human condition, we'd adjust to it sooner being able to be authentic from a young age. Instead our parents indoctrination gets passed on to us and in many cases twisted by their own demons and crazy beliefs and interpretations. It's going to get better and it already has, but for those of us that are over a certain age, we've wasted a lot of life in turmoil and unhappiness.  The tribe or collective is often wrong and often crushes the individual.

Precisely! Sadly so!


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Quote from: Gertrude on July 31, 2018, 05:49:33 PM
That was then. You'd think they'd have enough intelligence to figure out that they are being what they don't like and it's making your bones if you will on someone else's expense or cutting someone down to lift yourself up. It makes no sense other than they have more issues than I or probably most therapists can fix.

I have noticed on another TG forum that the older MTF's are resentful of the younger ones that didn't have to wait years just to get hormones or have to deal with all the social stigmas. They also seemed resentful of people who came out quickly and didn't hide being TS. I had really quick results with hormones and would post my progress on their forum and the people accused me of being fake like just living an online fantasy saying my doctor must be amazed at my progress. Funny because I just saw the doctor and she said out of all the patients she saw that day I had progressed the most in the shortest amount of time. I went so far as to post a picture of my chest for the naysayers and this enraged them because I had proved that I was real..

They are totally sending the wrong message to younger people. Since I didn't know any TS women in real life I thought they were all like that. They are the people you don't want to talk to because you might offend them. This makes normal people avoid trans people, especially at work because they are afraid of using the wrong pronouns and have to take a trip to the HR department. This also makes employers reluctant to hire since they don't want a law suit on their hands.

There was one thread where an older transwomen who had switched jobs after transitioning attempted to talk to a former coworker from before transitioning. She ended up almost but not talking to them because they didn't know what their reaction would be. The other members all said how that was a good idea  and I said WTF? You came this far and you are still afraid that people will have a problem with it? (she was not passable and indicated that was why she had fear) You already quit your job to avoid the fear of coming out. If someone has a problem with you being trans they are in the wrong, not you. By hiding you are not making it easier for anyone including yourself. It's the opposite of LGBT pride. They also said that what I was doing "wasn't transitioning" well luckily I see a trans specialist for therapy. She said that what I was doing was not only right but many of her patients take much longer and are not as sure of themselves which is the biggest problem to overcome  Why would you hide in the closet? Maybe you had to 20 or 30 years ago, but now trans people are in congress and on TV winning beauty contests. Maybe I'm not "transitioning right", but I look like a girl, feel like a girl mentally and physically, happier then I have ever been, and becoming more passable and female each day..Never forgot the first time I got called miss by a stranger. Still to this day doesn't feel real but I'm changing so much/fast that if I was still dressing like a guy and acting like a guy, people would really look at me funny, especially in the mens room. The day I was told I was in the wrong bathroom was the last day I used the mens room and never again! Can't do that if you are in the closet.

Quote from: Tommi on July 31, 2018, 11:47:29 PM
Congrats, you levelled up! There is a joke: what's the difference between a crossdressers and a transgender person? About a year. /rimshot

Seriously though, 20 years ago I was trying to figure things out, and,all I found were cd/tv/sissy resources. I didn't fit there. There *is* a difference. But! One is not better than the other. Just, different.

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Thats what happened to me I would cross dress feel weird about it throw the clothes away then do it again. As the cycles became more and more frequent I started saving the clothes and realized by the time I was 40 there would be no time between feeling guilty. But then I realized I was cross dressing to feel normal not different and I think thats what separates a CD from a TS.

I always thought I was a sissy though. Thats the one overlap sexual part; being submissive to a man was a fantasy that I'm now living.

It's been my experience that people only have an opinion on others when it affects how they feel about themselves. As people we use those around us as mirrors to draw attention to our own insecurities and fears.

Who we are as individuals has no bearing on who anyone else is. Absolutely none. Who you are doesn't affect who someone else is one single bit. Or it shouldn't do. But sometimes people make it like that because who someone else is brings something into question about who they are. It makes someone question themselves. And people don't like questioning themselves. It's one reason people band together with other people who don't make them question themselves. To feel safe.

Someone who comes out at trans at any point in their lives before or after I did... someone who cross dresses, someone who doesn't fit the gender binary model in the same way I believe I do... they have NO effect on who I am as a person. None. Or on who you are as a person. Who anyone else is as a person. As I have no effect on who they are. Just like what I eat for dinner has absolutely no effect on what you eat for dinner. We are individuals. No matter how much people have in common... at the core we are all individuals, we all love, learn, laugh and live at a different pace to each other. All like different things. We all are different people. Even though sometimes we have some things in common. Sometimes this is lost, sadly.

I understand this prejudice, because I have a fairly good idea where it comes from. It's one person trying to hold on to their identity by disregarding someone else's. As a result of feeling threatened. A feeling that what someone else does, or is, will somehow discredit something that person has worked for and believe they earned the right to. That someone else who hasn't gone through what you've been through, yet still being a part of the thing you're a part of, will somehow dilute your own experiences. And make you less legitimate.

I've seen this a lot. A helluva lot. Because it's how people are. Not just with being trans. With most things in everyday life. Criticism says more about the critic than the criticised. And no more so than when someone criticises someone's very identity. Something that is very personal to the individual. Something with no basis for criticism. It says a lot.

I have found that the best, least stressful way to live your life... is to let other people live theirs. As you would want them to let you live yours. As Buddha said: "Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."