So, one of my best friends who I've known for well over ten years tonight confirmed that she doesn't believe trans women are really women until they've ticked some transition box. It shouldn't surprise or bother me but it's hit me hard

Friend: "My main line is that I don't think it's appropriate for pre-transitioned transwomen to be in female changing areas, pools, shortlists, scholarships, sports or refuges because they're either hard-won rights for women and/or places where women want to be away from male-bodied people."

I don't even know how to explain to her how offensive that is to me as someone who is transitioning but is well aware the process will take *years* where I won't be able to live as myself if she had her way.

Sophie, I am sorry this happened to you. Some people do not understand what we go through and how difficult it is. She has some notions in her head that were planted there by others. If she is a good friend and you want to keep her then there is some dialog and teaching you can do but if she is closed minded then adios.

Sophie,
   Sorry for the hurt this has caused you. I would want to distance myself from someone believing that also. It's like saying, "We can only fully trust you if you have taken all steps possible to be female. Not everyone wants all those steps in order to be who they are. Again, sorry!
Moni

I'm so sorry this happened to you.😞 You didn't deserve it. I'm sure you will find someone(s) who will accept you for who you are. 😌

Wow!  I assume she knows you are transgender and given the rather specific language she is using that is nothing short of a kick in the teeth.

Hi Sophie

I recently went through something similar with my best friend/girlfriend
Most of the time she is 100% supporting and understanding but at times (especially when drinking) she makes mean and disrespectful comments about trans women.
   She always apologizes the next morning, but it still hurts. She has known me for me from day one and actually helped push me to take those first scary steps toward transitioning. I'm sorry to hear your friend make those comments, but as much as i hear cis women say we'll never underatand what it's like to be a woman until fully transitioned i have to add that they will never understand what it's like to be one trapped in a man's body.
   If she's a good friend and you want to keep her in your life you definitely need to have a conversation about how much her point of view damages your relationship and that you need supportive people around you. If she can't be a supportive friend then it might be best to cut ties.

"Male-bodied"... what does that even mean? Is it defined by outwardly visible masculine appearance, which she'd probably accept on a mannish looking cis-woman? Genitals, which she can't actually see, so they should be irrelevant?

Yeah, sorry... I can't help much since I've not been in this situation yet, but that sucks.

Thanks all and yes, she knows I'm trans and transitioning.

I told her pretty directly our friendship was over.

Open mouth, insert foot. That's what I'll likely do but I feel I need to add my thoughts.

---

Drinking does one of two things to the mouth, sometimes both.

1) loosens the tongue and allows the true thoughts and feelings to come spewing out with no regard to the effect it will have
2) it releases learned mannerisms and thoughts out of the subconscious that are not necessarily held by the logical mind.

neither is excusable and neither is very easy to correct.

My point is, you have to judge by the friend's normal character traits and interactions which it is and act accordingly. I'm just making a statement, not advocating any action or non-action.

I don't understand what your friend is saying. Male bodied? I don't know what that is supposed to mean. Is she talking about a transwoman who is pre transition, preop, or someone who doesn't pass? If she is talking about a transwoman who has not transitioned and is still presenting as a male then I understand what she's saying. I don't agree with it but I understand it. As hard as it is for transwomen to be accepted it is way too much to ask cis women to accept a transwoman who is still presenting as a male into the women's bathroom and changing rooms. Unfortunately most people are still too small minded for that. If she's talking about a pre op transwoman then I would say it's irrelevant. Unless you are in a public shower no one can see what genitals you have. Even in female locker rooms at the gym and such how many women get totally naked when they change into gym clothes. So what next? A door monitor for women's bathrooms that check everyone's genitals before allowing them to enter? If she's talking about transwomen who don't pass then she's being small minded and cruel. If that's what she means then I guess the same attitude must apply to cis women who look masculine. " you can't come in here because you don't look feminine enough"

Stuff like this is the reason I am stealth. If people know you're trans then you cease to be a woman in their eyes. You beccome an imitation woman. My uncle once told me that no matter what surgery or hrt procedures I had I still wouldn't ever be a woman. I would be a gay guy wearing a woman costume I could never take off. I think that's how most cis people view trans women. And if you try to argue , the reproduction card is always thrown in your face. After I had my SRS my mom sent me an email and she said I might be able to vaginal sex with Tristan now but I still couldn't ever give him kids so I should expect him to dump me at some point down the road.

I'm so sorry you lost your friend. I know what that's like. I gradually lost the few friends I had. I had one friend I had had since before I transitioned. I considered her my best friend. She had always been supportive and had helped me a lot when I first transitioned. Then one day last year we were at the food court at the mall. There were 2 guys at another table and when they got up and left one of them stopped at our table and told me he just wanted to tell me I was beautiful and that he hoped I had a good day. As he was walking away my friend yelled " I'm having a good day too. Thanks for asking". A few minutes later she was talking about her car insurance bill and I told her yes, car insurance was expensive. And she went off on me. She said " how would you know Julia?  Your daddy pays all your bills. You don't even pay your own phone bill. You can use the money you make at work for anything you want."  I asked her why she was being so nasty and she said because it wasnt fair. She said " it's not fair that your dad gives you anything you want. Most people have to pay their own bills. And It's not right that all the guys flirt with you. You're not even really a girl." I asked her how she could say that to me and she said " because I'm sick of you getting everything. You're just a spoiled, sheltered, little daddy's  girl. Excuse me, daddy's BOY"!  I couldn't even say anything. I just got up and left. I kept it together until I got to my car and then I cried the whole drive home. I have never spoken to her again. It really hurts when someone you thought of as your best friend turns on you and attacks the fact you're trans. That's so low and about as mean as you can get. I don't have any friends now really. I have a few acquaintances but I won't get really close with anyone. Being trans is too easy for people to use against you and really hurt you with. No thanks.

Quote from: Julia1996 on August 06, 2018, 07:32:15 AMIf that's what she means then I guess the same attitude must apply to cis women who look masculine. " you can't come in here because you don't look feminine enough"

Yes, that has actually happened and been documented on video.

So sorry to hear these tales of lost friends, but clearly those people were never true friends in the first place.

Dear Sophie,

I was saddened by your post, not only because your friend has said things that you found so hurtful but also because you feel that a 10 year friendship has come to an end because of it.

Acceptance is always going to be hardest amongst those closest to the transitioner - the mother & father who still see their son when others see a woman, the friends who cannot envisage a friendship with a woman who they used to enjoy lads' banter with etc. etc. - but society isn't helping the cause either.

We can draw some parallels with the gradual acceptance of homosexuality to the point we're at now where gay and straight people enjoy identical legal privileges, and an increasing majority of the population don't feel the need to make sensationalist jokes or comments when discovering a friend or colleague's sexuality for the first time.  However, this has been a very organic process evolving over several decades without excessive intervention from the authorities.

Conrast that with trans issues where, all of a sudden things have exploded and it only takes someone to say 'I identify as a woman' for the authorities (be they councils, government or the local swimming pool management) to go into a tailspin and, of course, it's the more extreme cases that get reported in the press whipping people into a frenzy and resulting in the type of attitude that your friend articulated.  The problem is that someone who is totally comfortable in their assigned gender will never understand the anxiety resulting from dysphoria which, in cases such as yours, gives an overwhelming drive to transition.

Will the situation change?  I firmly believe it will but it will change as a result of positive moves within the majority of the trans community rather than by dictat from a small but vocal minority of the community or the government.  I can think of five transwomen in the UK who were public figures prior to transition - Kellie Maloney (formerly Frank - boxing promoter), India Willoughby (formerly Jonathan - television newsreader), Victoria Smith (formerly Vince - jockey), Philippa York (formerly Robert Millar - cyclist) and Stephanie Firth (formerly Simon - radio DJ) - and, with the possible exception of Ms Maloney, all have represented the trans community in a very positive way and have successfully returned to their former careers in one form or another.

My point here is you have a part to play in this.  You can educate your friend by taking her with you and, who knows, in time she may become your greatest advocate.  That's not to say that you must stay silent if you disagree with her views of find them offensive but, by explaining why you find the views offensive will earn you far more acceptance than you will get by cutting her off. A key part of transition is gaining acceptance and I am absolutely certain that there will come a point where she can accept you for who you are, not who you were.  I hope, therefore, you can give her a second chance to join you on your journey.

With my best wishes for your future happiness and success.

Amanda

Quote from: aaajjj55 on August 06, 2018, 11:37:50 AM

Conrast that with trans issues where, all of a sudden things have exploded and it only takes someone to say 'I identify as a woman' for the authorities (be they councils, government or the local swimming pool management) to go into a tailspin and, of course, it's the more extreme cases that get reported in the press whipping people into a frenzy and resulting in the type of attitude that your friend articulated.  The problem is that someone who is totally comfortable in their assigned gender will never understand the anxiety resulting from dysphoria which, in cases such as yours, gives an overwhelming drive to transition.

Will the situation change?  I firmly believe it will but it will change as a result of positive moves within the majority of the trans community rather than by dictat from a small but vocal minority of the community or the government.  I can think of five transwomen in the UK who were public figures prior to transition - Kellie Maloney (formerly Frank - boxing promoter), India Willoughby (formerly Jonathan - television newsreader), Victoria Smith (formerly Vince - jockey), Philippa York (formerly Robert Millar - cyclist) and Stephanie Firth (formerly Simon - radio DJ) - and, with the possible exception of Ms Maloney, all have represented the trans community in a very positive way and have successfully returned to their former careers in one form or another.

My point here is you have a part to play in this.  You can educate your friend by taking her with you and, who knows, in time she may become your greatest advocate.  That's not to say that you must stay silent if you disagree with her views of find them offensive but, by explaining why you find the views offensive will earn you far more acceptance than you will get by cutting her off. A key part of transition is gaining acceptance and I am absolutely certain that there will come a point where she can accept you for who you are, not who you were.  I hope, therefore, you can give her a second chance to join you on your journey.

With my best wishes for your future happiness and success.

Amanda

Hello Amanda

I have said so many times that Transgender matters have only really been in the public domain here in the UK since around 2000; prior to that most people in UK knew little about it apart from transpeople like us of course and usually misunderstood anyway. However as you say probably more recently (perhaps just this decade) it has "exploded" here in UK.

I agreed with you that there is still significant opposition especially from family members - my mum never accepted me but sadly died 3 years ago. I was forced to seek help through therapy last year aged 62 and then HRT the last 6 months and I intend to transition publicly next year. I am confident both with celebrities transitioning and more serious discussion on television (sometimes alas it is not serious), that we will eventually gain acceptance. Again as you say, we cannot passively do nothing; we must explain our case accordingly as we constantly think of gender whereas cispeople never think of gender.

We must campaign but also give it time - we will ultimately win and gain acceptance!

Hugs to you and to Sophie and I wish you both future happiness.

Pamela

Sophie. I'm sorry.. [emoji45] I hope you make better friends than that.

I have a question for you.. Did you ever have a gut feeling she wasn't a good friend before? I mean especially with trans stuff?
That's how I feel with a high school friend who I don't talk to anymore after many transphobic things she has said.
Well also a bad friend is just a bad friend.

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

That is a difficult situation. I tend to always try to see both sides view of anything as much as possible. Perhaps that makes me a fence sitter.

Obviously I don't know your friend or how she said what she did. I would choose to believe that she is speaking more about trans women who are just beginning their journey. When I started HRT I would have never used the ladies restroom. I looked like a guy and still had to dress that way. Even when I had the chance to go out in female clothes I did not used the women facilities because as uncomfortable as I was, I did not wish to make others feel uncomfortable. I did not pass and honestly I doubted I ever would.

Then I reached that point where I didn't pass but I was clearly not male appearing anymore. I still avoided public restrooms whenever possible. More women became much more open and inclusive to me. At that point women still seemed to see me kind of along the lines of a gay man. Not threatening but not a woman either.

Somehow and somewhere I crossed over to where I do pass. I still am not sure how. While my voice is poor, just passing no one looks at me different anymore. Now when I do need to use public facilities I do use the women's but I still tend to avoid it when I can. Just too many Evangelical Christian's around here to take a chance.

So all that said, I would feel understanding of your friends feelings, I would try to impress to her that we are just as  female in our minds as a cis woman is. We just have to hide our true selves our whole lives. Maybe you don't have to end such a long friendship with her. Maybe you can talk it out with her.

Quote from: pamelatransuk on August 07, 2018, 07:33:43 AM
Hello Amanda

I have said so many times that Transgender matters have only really been in the public domain here in the UK since around 2000; prior to that most people in UK knew little about it apart from transpeople like us of course and usually misunderstood anyway. However as you say probably more recently (perhaps just this decade) it has "exploded" here in UK.

I agreed with you that there is still significant opposition especially from family members - my mum never accepted me but sadly died 3 years ago. I was forced to seek help through therapy last year aged 62 and then HRT the last 6 months and I intend to transition publicly next year. I am confident both with celebrities transitioning and more serious discussion on television (sometimes alas it is not serious), that we will eventually gain acceptance. Again as you say, we cannot passively do nothing; we must explain our case accordingly as we constantly think of gender whereas cispeople never think of gender.

We must campaign but also give it time - we will ultimately win and gain acceptance!

Hugs to you and to Sophie and I wish you both future happiness.

Pamela

Really? There was Hayley on Coronation Street in the 90's. Not a programme I enjoy much, but it had audiences of 15 million or so at the time. And she was a very popular, well received character. I found her a bit embarrassing, didn't like her red anorak or her geeky husband, but as a storyline arc that ended up being about 20 years long it was pretty prominent, and I tuned in for her death scenes, which I thought were very moving.

As prominence and acceptance goes, being one of the most popular long term characters in one of the biggest tv shows in the country is probably good going. It wasn't really sensationalized, the trans stuff came up as it naturally would in various ways, and she was actually one of the more pedestrian characters, generally shown as an all round nice person. Along with a handful of other fictional characters in big programmes, I think most people in the country would have an awareness of the name and know that she was a trans character. Even in media outlets not known for their manners, she was generally reported positively as I recall.

I saw her at the theatre about a year after her character died. She was sitting in the row behind. I was horrified in case she noticed me in particular (being in denial still), but I felt warmly enough about her advocacy work to give a small tight smile when I got up, and she returned it with a very genuine beam and something about how great the performance was.

I think the 'explosion' is from the other side of the pond and sadly got imported along with other aspects of their 'culture wars' and 'free speech' shtick, with the right to offend being interpreted by the right as more like a duty to be offensive. And it has been a recent development at that, with Trump and Brexit being two sides of the same coin and constantly in the news. Before that, I was never aware of bathroom issues or anything else political other than it being well covered by equality legislation.