Quote from: Melissa on March 12, 2006, 07:00:10 PM
Regardless of how I dress, I feel like a female wearing a male disguise.

I am still forced by circumstances to work as a male. Several months ago I realized that dressing as a guy I felt like I was in drag; it's a huge relief to get home and dress normally! Maybe that's part of "feeling like a woman", when being a guy feels like you're wearing a disguise.

Quote from: Annie Social on March 13, 2006, 02:49:15 PMMaybe that's part of "feeling like a woman", when being a guy feels like you're wearing a disguise.

So true! I'm still living as an ordinary guy, but I've *always* had this irrational fear that my TSism is "showing" somehow, that I'm going to be "read" as a woman impersonating a man, as insane as that sounds. It makes me *extremely* self-conscious when around people. Do ya all feel that way too?

My point was that it did not matter how I am dressed, because it's my body that is the disguise.  As my body has been going through changes, this is what make me feel like I have less of a disguise.  I wouldn't say wearing male clothes makes me feel like I'm in drag, it's just the discomfort of people relating to me as male.  In fact, I usually don't change my clothes when I get home, because the other people in my house know I'm female and treat me as such.

Kate, it sounds like you saw the point of my post that it's not the male clothes that are the disguise.

However, all of my casual clothes are female, but they are more androgynous so that I don't need to put on makeup or anything to go out.

Melissa

". . . feel like a woman . . ."

The word "like" implies a comparison.  And I think the previous posts have pointed in that direction.  And I think that's all anyone can do when they consider similarities between people's feelings.  We can't know experientially but we can and do compare our feelings with the evidence around us.

So, when my male acquaintences talk about sex, cars, snowmobiles, football, etc. and I hear them express their feelings about these things, I compare their communication to my own inner experience and have to conclude that I'm not like them.  And when I relate to my female friends and listen to them talk about things, I compare and see that their expressions and their approach to things is more congruent to my experience than a male's would be.

Thus, the only conclusion I can reach is, because I certainly don't LOOK like a woman, that I feel like a woman inside. 

helen


Posted at: March 13, 2006, 09:21:41 PM

---

Another thought just occurred to me, that we may know based on a deeper psychic sense of our kinship to whichever gender we identify with.  Intellectual excercise is not the only way humans get to know things, of that I'm sure so, maybe when I relate to other women I get the subjective sense of belonging as well as the intellectual reasoning.  It certainly feels that way!

helen

I think Helen has the real key to the matter.

Being a man or a woman takes it's shape from how we respond to all the things in life around us. Since none of us can EVER know what another person FEELS, we can only compare our feelings to those that others express.

One can compare one's feelings to men and say "I am different than them" or to women and say "That's the way I feel"! If you feelings coincide with what (most) other women feel in the same circumstances and not with men, that it is reasonable to say you "feel like a woman".

There is also a deeper sense of gender that is more individualistic but I think it lies beyond understanding or explaining.

Quote from: Northern Jane on March 14, 2006, 03:14:47 PM
One can compare one's feelings to men and say "I am different than them" or to women and say "That's the way I feel"! If you feelings coincide with what (most) other women feel in the same circumstances and not with men, that it is reasonable to say you "feel like a woman".

What's driving me crazy is trying to figure out why an effeminate gay man will still identify as a man, yet a 250 pound ex-marine might identify as a female inside (if a TS)?

The effeminate gay man may indeed say he is "like a woman," but he doesn't take the next step and claim he IS a woman. But why not?

It's not just being "like" a woman that makes us transsexual... there's some extra step, some other ingredient that I just cannot pinpoint.

I would say that the 250 lb TS is quite uncomfortable with presenting a masculine exterior whereas the gay man is probably quite happy with his. The TS feels that the masculine appearance/voice/mannerisms are a sort of mask designed to covers up her true identity out of fear.

Quote from: Kate on March 14, 2006, 03:24:15 PM
What's driving me crazy is trying to figure out why an effeminate gay man will still identify as a man, yet a 250 pound ex-marine might identify as a female inside (if a TS)?

The effeminate gay man may indeed say he is "like a woman," but he doesn't take the next step and claim he IS a woman. But why not?

It's not just being "like" a woman that makes us transsexual... there's some extra step, some other ingredient that I just cannot pinpoint.

"sense of self" perhaps?

Who I perceive myself to be is very definitely not my birth gender.

Quote from: umop ap!sdn...
The TS feels that the masculine appearance/voice/mannerisms are a sort of mask designed to covers up her true identity out of fear.
...

Also not all go the hyper masculine route out of fear; Some try their best to be what others want them to be, others try and prove they are men to themselves for instance.

I think as we are all to well aware, the best laid plans...

Maybe your trying to "over think" things Kate. 

What in the world does weighing 250 pounds have to do with believing your a woman?

What does being gay have to do with you realizing that your a man and being happy with your body (or lesbian and knowing your a woman)?

Nothing to both.

Sarah L.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on March 15, 2006, 12:15:30 PM
Maybe your trying to "over think" things Kate. 

What in the world does weighing 250 pounds have to do with believing your a woman?

What does being gay have to do with you realizing that your a man and being happy with your body (or lesbian and knowing your a woman)?

I was trying to paint the picture that an extremely masculine man (muscle-bound ex-marine) can still self-identify as a female, while an extremely feminine man (effeminate gay) can still self-identify as a male.

My conclusion being that simply being LIKE a woman doesn't create the feeling of BEING a woman. If it did, all effeminate men would be transsexuals - yet they're not. Posessing feminine traits does not necessarily create the feelings of being a woman.

So what then does it mean if I say, "I feel like a woman?" Without referencing feminine traits, it's seems to be an empty, meaningless claim. And yet if I do reference feminine traits, I've shown that many men have feminine traits, yet do not feel they ARE women, so that can't explain it.

I'm not necessarily arguing that the feeling isn't valid. I feel it myself, which is why it's so frustrating to me. It's this weird thing standing out there on it's own, independent of any support or external validation. I "feel like a woman," and yet it's not "because" of anything, and I can't tell you why or how I feel that way.

One time when I was talking with my Dad not too long after coming out, I was telling him how feminine I am and how a lot of my thought processes reflected a typical woman.  He compared saying he is also feminine and that doesn't necessarily make me a woman.  Then I pointed out that I also want to have a female body and that pretty much ended that debate, because he didn't want that himself.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on March 15, 2006, 12:57:16 PM
One time when I was talking with my Dad not too long after coming out, I was telling him how feminine I am and how a lot of my thought processes reflected a typical woman.  He compared saying he is also feminine and that doesn't necessarily make me a woman.  Then I pointed out that I also want to have a female body and that pretty much ended that debate, because he didn't want that himself.

LOL, yup, that's pretty much it, isn't it?

There's a passage in Jennifer Boylan's book, "She's Not There" which kinda opened my eyes. She said something like, "It's not about being feminine, it's about being female."

That perfectly described the feelings I've been struggling with. It also scared the heck out of me, as I realized why physical transition (to whatever degree) is the only solution for my angst. Crossdressing, "expressing my feminine side," and so on are all wonderful outlets for femininity, but do nothing to make me female.

Quote from: Kate on March 15, 2006, 12:35:31 PM


My conclusion being that simply being LIKE a woman doesn't create the feeling of BEING a woman. If it did, all effeminate men would be transsexuals - yet they're not. Posessing feminine traits does not necessarily create the feelings of being a woman.

You are confusing gender with gender role.  They are men, like that particular organ, and like to be with men with the same equiptment. 

I'm not sure this topic has an satisfactory answer.  Before transition, I often thought I felt like a woman but based on what?  I didn't know.  During my transition (RLT), I thought more frequently that I felt like a woman and since I was living as a woman, this seemed more valid but still, I realized this was a conscious thought.  I doubted women often thought much about "feeling like women".  I consider feeling feminine a separate issue in that feeling feminine is not necessarily equivalent to feeling like a woman.  My female presentation isn't terribly feminine, as is true for many women, and has nothing to do with my sense of being female. 

Now, I am a woman and I don't think much about feeling like a woman.  My transition certainly isn't complete and perhaps it never will be--"One is not born a woman, one becomes one"--and all that, but I'm rather happy that I no longer ponder this question very much.

Dawn

I can't really describe how I'm feminine. One thing that I've realized for sure is that I don't really find woman sexually attractive to me. Also I've realized I'm sensitive and seem to cry easily.

but it's really hard to describe, and I probably couldn't answer it if somebody asked me. I'm just female, and that's all I can really say.

Well, I need to make a first post somewhere.  This seems to be about as good a thread as any!

I'm  male, as far as the world knows outside of a few people online.  Subtract the A you have my real name.  I've teetered if I ever do have SRS, about what to name myself.  It's not the prettiest in my opinion.  But it's probably appropriate since it is so close to my given name.

I'm not as far as most of you - I have only told one person, a gay friend whom someone outted to me in front of him, and shouldn't have.  So after we were alone I came out that I'm transgender (Or whatever the right term is) to him to try and make it a bit less awkward for him.  At least it worked!  I've never even had therapy of any sort, but have only just started looking into it.  I think I'm at the point that I need to.  I'm 23 - 24 in June.  And realizing I need to find out who I am.  I need to find out so I can find a place in life.  Will this lead to HRT, and ultimately SRS?  I don't know.  Maybe.  I've got some major anxiety, but maybe talking about it will change things.  The biggest I have is that even if I get the change, I'll never be able to bear children or have periods (Oddly, how many biological woman probably think I'm nuts for that latter one?  But to me it seems a part of the package).  So another part of the anxiety is to have most of the package of what I know I am, or to be whole as something else.  But anyways, that's not the discussion at hand.

But anyways, feeling like a woman?

To me...  It's just sort of something there.  Something that I know is right.  An image.  A feeling of what I am is wrong.  In the end, I don't think I'll be different.  Man, Woman?  It's all human, in the end there is no real difference.  But the cultural, and biological roles are things I see myself as being much more comfortable with.  Things I can accept, and even be happy with.  Rather than like I am now, male and depressed.  There is importance to what you're perceived as, and to how you perceive yourself being what you are.  Especially if it makes you happy about yourself.  So that's my answer.  Being female is something to me.  It's a feeling that I am right.  A feeling of the external matching the internal to lead to a whole sense of wellbeing.

I don't think that there is the 'feel like a woman' aspect to it, I feel that our brains tell us what we are, so that we know instinctively what we are, or should be etc.

If your brain is telling you, as it were, that you're a woman, and you're in a man's body, then the conflict is created between your gender, decided by the brain, and your sex, decided by your genitalia.

Anyway that's the way I think it all works!

He best way to describe "feeling like a woman" is that, when I present as Chaunte, my sence of self rings true.  THere is a harmony within.

I would also say that this is true for "Feeling like a man."  It's not being macho or tough or anything else that is used to describe males.  It's a congruity between exterior and interior.

Chaunte

A variation on this question is, "Why do you want to be a woman (or a man for our FTM brothers)?"

For the longest time in y transition I'd tell people I could and would answer any question but one.  That was the 'why' question.

Eventually, the answer came to me.  Perhaps it is an answer that will resonate with others.

Why did I become a woman?  To be true to myself!

Robyn

Quote from: reikirobyn on April 09, 2006, 06:15:53 PM
...
For the longest time in y transition I'd tell people I could and would answer any question but one.  That was the 'why' question.

Eventually, the answer came to me.  Perhaps it is an answer that will resonate with others.

Why did I become a woman?  To be true to myself!

Robyn

For myself I didn't "become" a woman as I already was one.  I just knew that being a man didn't "become me"

Steph