Last night I was at a gathering of a South Asian LGBT organization, with a panel discussion on transgender in Desi culture. It was preceded by performances by two drag queens and a butch boi comedienne, who then sat on the panel and were joined by a transsexual lady.

One gay gentleman in the audience posed the usual question we always hear: "Why do you have to change your bodies instead of just being happy with the body you got? Look at me, I'm a flaming queen, but I don't want to change my body. Why can't you just be flaming queens like me?"

The Indian and Pakistani drag queens tried to answer for transsexuals, and completely failed, since it was clear they don't have a clue either. They are not taking hormones or changing their bodies either, so they can't explain why transsexuals do. Likewise, the Sri Lankan Tamil butch boi lacked insight into transsexualism, though she can speak well about performing comedy in two genders. The Pakistani transsexual woman there tried to explain, but she lacked the eloquence to do more than mumble vaguely about "feeling." Meanwhile the drag queens, who are used to performing, were more than happy to offer golden-tongued oratory about a subject they don't understand, getting it wrong. It was frustrating to watch.

Finally another gay gentleman with better consciousness on LGBT issues spoke up and explained what transsexualism is really like for those going through the experience: the extremely painful contradiction between body and self that began in the fetus. When asked about why they used a cross-gender expression, the drag queens said they enjoyed the freedom, the pretty clothes, and the "performativity" that Judith Butler wrote about in Gender Trouble. I was thinking, geez, to me it's a matter of life and death, and they care about pretty clothes and performing. I wish transsexualism had been better represented.

So to those who argue that all "transgender" people are the same, I say no. To be transsexual is a specific burden that you can't understand unless you've lived it-- or unless, as the learned gay gentleman demonstrated, you've made a special study of it and listened carefully to TS people's experiences and insights. The umbrella term "transgender" covers such disparate types, it doesn't really convey much useful meaning, and it poses a danger of obscuring the issues and needs of specific groups.

well, the term transgender covers everything from casual cross-dressing, female impersonation, severe transvestism,  ->-bleeped-<-, and transsexualism.   i agree this is too broad a characterization to be useful and it's not precise; it implies similarity in actions that have no relationship whatsoever and since it's nebulous and vague in meaning, it ends by telling you nothing about a particular individual.

From an etiological point of view, and perhaps even a political one, you make a good point.

I just worry that the move to seperate them will end up leaving some people behind as the rest get the recognition they deserve.

Well, to be TS means always taking criticism for changing our bodies. I don't know why that bothers cissexual people so much. Maybe they have nightmares of being castrated, I don't know what their big problem is with us taking care of our needs. So if the subject comes up, I want our side of it told by someone who actually understands it. Sorry but drag queens just cannot speak for me on such crucial life and death issues. I worry that with a hegemonic term like "transgender" that erases the distinctiveness of TS, we will be the ones whose issues are "left behind" because ours are the most difficult (and expensive).

I absolutely agree Hypatia, don't get me wrong. Different groups under the transgender umbrella don't and perhaps can't understand on another, and should not presume to speak on one another's behalf.

Sorry if I made a hash of explaining - in this I agree with you. My thoughts on this thread were being contaminated by another one on a different forum about how TS people should not associate with other transgendered individuals.

Please forgive. 

my small contribution is to specify 'transsexual' when transsexual is the obvious subject or topic.  I make it clear to anyone who asks that a transsexual has a very different experience than the rest of us do and i try to get across why there is a difference to begin with.

But, you can't expect the whole world to be entirely aware at this point.  it could be decades before the concept is better known by the average person.

what does 'ftw' mean?

'fix the wrongs'?  maybe?

Tink's honest opinion:

I have always maintained that "transsexual" is NOT a subgroup of "transgender", and that the distinction between the two needs to be made.  Although I have absolutely no problem with transgender people, I've always felt that the attempted inclusion of transsexual people under the "transgender" aegis is to our detriment.

However, I think that it is possible to be able to explain this fact to people. They may not be able to fully comprehend our feelings as if they were one of us, but they can learn about us. So they can answer questions in a pinch.
But, yes absolutely, the best answers come from those of us who live with the condition day in and day out.

tink

Quote from: redfish the postmodern on March 30, 2008, 08:45:28 PM
ftw means for the win

oh.  I'm a old person.  Me no understand yer internets lingo.

but tink, if we take transgender to mean transgressing gender boundaries then the only transgenders are crossdressers.

To me, "transgender" implies that I am "crossing" between the gender boundaries of male and female or that I'm somewhere in the middle, and in my case, that is NOT true, for I've NEVER crossed any gender boundaries.  My gender has ALWAYS been female, and personally I feel insulted when someone tells me that I have "changed genders".  The only thing I have changed is my physical sex, NOT my gender.

tink

and I never crossed any gender boundaries I was always androgyne.
and a cross dresser never crossed gender boundaries, they were always a man (for example) but a man playing with the traditional clothes as a woman.

No one is crossing boundaries particularly, everyone is fighting for the same thing - to be recognised for what they are.

Quote from: redfish the postmodern on March 30, 2008, 09:12:44 PM
eh

other people are going to see you as having transgressed it most likely, though, and probably are not going to agree when you explain why you do not think you are transgressing


I, for one, welcome our transgender overlords

That's fine.  "other people" have never been a part when it comes to my own gender identity. 

tink

but the thread was a story about who can stand up and clearly and understandably talk about transsexual's to a group of people new to the ideas, and I agree that a transsexual is the best person to talk for the transsexuals - but if they were to stand up and go 'It just is and I have my reasons' people would probably leave knowing less, being less interested in knowing and much less accepting of transsexuals compared to when they went in.

Quote from: Tink on March 30, 2008, 09:02:17 PM
To me, "transgender" implies that I am "crossing" between the gender boundaries of male and female or that I'm somewhere in the middle, and in my case, that is NOT true, for I've NEVER crossed any gender boundaries.  My gender has ALWAYS been female, and personally I feel insulted when someone tells me that I have "changed genders".  The only thing I have changed is my physical sex, NOT my gender.

tink

Tink, I really like what you said. I have never thought of it that way. I do believe that I have not been a transgendered person either. I have always felt female even when I was trying so hard to be male. I have always thought that we were connected with the intersexed people. I don't ever want to go back to what I was and I do believe in the binary system that there are only two genders, which I'm one.
Sheila

Don't forget that many transsexuals do not want to stand up and speak about it in public (if anywhere).  That's where us intermediates start earning our pay.


Do we even get paid for the services we perform?   

wouldn't even get a thankyou. 

Thank you, Redfish.       

I just boiled it down to into the terminology.  Cis-meaning on the same side, and Trans-meaning across from (like the trans and cis allotropes you find in chemistry).  So transgendered just means your gender is across from...your sex.  Transsexual is the sam  e thing, your sex is across from...your gender. 

I can see your point though, Tink, and it does make a lot of sense.
I don't want people to even bring maleness into the picture when they think of me, which is what the term transgender often is taken for.