Please don't accuse me of watching that garbage.

Anyway, yes you can absolutely train your voice to be able to yell and in time it becomes natural. The only thing I worry about any more is inflection, which a surgery recipient would have to do as well. Anyone who claims that people with trained choices can't have range is also woefully ignorant.

Quote from: Colleen_definitely on October 09, 2018, 02:45:40 PM
Please don't accuse me of watching that garbage.

Anyway, yes you can absolutely train your voice to be able to yell and in time it becomes natural. The only thing I worry about any more is inflection, which a surgery recipient would have to do as well. Anyone who claims that people with trained choices can't have range is also woefully ignorant.

Agree you can get alot of power in a re trained voice.

Disagree E TV is Garbage, Not everyones bag and I understand that, however to call it Garbage sounds a bit WASPY if Im honest with you darling.....

You said we all watched that cringe fest "reality" show, but I did not. I refuse to watch anything of the sort.

As for calling it garbage, I stand by that. It's a video freak sideshow. It is so others can marvel at how weird certain groups are when they're following scripts and having fake drama added in. It's not a positive thing in any way.

Quote from: Colleen_definitely on October 09, 2018, 03:12:28 PM
You said we all watched that cringe fest "reality" show, but I did not. I refuse to watch anything of the sort.

As for calling it garbage, I stand by that. It's a video freak sideshow. It is so others can marvel at how weird certain groups are when they're following scripts and having fake drama added in. It's not a positive thing in any way.

Wow....You are a bit prickly and judgemental.    The phrase that we all watched, is a turn of speech, not a literal statement.   

Now while I can totally accept you don't like a show, and could have said something sensible like, I don't watch reality TV and find it vacuous and not my thing.....you didn't....   Heres my 2 cents on your views

Given we are both Trans to call a bunch of Trans women on a reality show  a freak show seems poor taste and a bit of a shot in the foot if we expect people to be nice to Us.......I mean if someone said some of us look like Men in Dresses were would not like that......Food for thought........ Thats With Caitlyn show....    As for the KUWTK show the star star is not Blonde, nor skinny, and most of the Clan are in inter racial relationships......Prehaps theres something else here?? Not feeling your WASPness....it comes over loud and clear (and yes even in the UK, my Ethnic wife and I know what WASP means!)

Lexa xx

I watched the show and enjoyed most of it. I think it was a good platform for educating people on what transgender people go through. There were a lot of powerful and heartfelt moments which truly felt more like a documentary than a reality series and it opened people's eyes who told me about it (one being a laser technician who simply didn't understand what transgender meant before watching it). Sad that it got cancelled, was definitely one of the best things to come out of the Karjenner franchise.

Quote from: Ellement_of_Freedom on October 09, 2018, 06:18:57 PM
I watched the show and enjoyed most of it. I think it was a good platform for educating people on what transgender people go through. There were a lot of powerful and heartfelt moments which truly felt more like a documentary than a reality series and it opened people's eyes who told me about it (one being a laser technician who simply didn't understand what transgender meant before watching it). Sad that it got cancelled, was definitely one of the best things to come out of the Karjenner franchise.

Thank you. While there are some parts in the shows particularly the second series that are not so great, overall the show did shine some light on trans gender and present some examples of reality for trans people in America.
Certainly not a freak show!

I can understand if someone wants FFS for a prominent brow or to have their nose done. Anything else I would definitely wait.

The voice is just one part of the total package or presentation. I myself waited a few years after SRS/ffs to get vocal surgery and i regret it. It was the icing on the cake and opened the door for a normal life integrated into society as any other girl.

Please understand for me transition was just a process to a final goal of being integrated into society as any other girl. That was MY OWN point of view. I do realize there are some people that have no issue being a trans person in the eyes of the world and for them I suspect vocal surgery might not be important.............

Quote from: Katie on October 10, 2018, 07:29:51 AM
The voice is just one part of the total package or presentation. I myself waited a few years after SRS/ffs to get vocal surgery and i regret it. It was the icing on the cake and opened the door for a normal life integrated into society as any other girl.

Please understand for me transition was just a process to a final goal of being integrated into society as any other girl. That was MY OWN point of view. I do realize there are some people that have no issue being a trans person in the eyes of the world and for them I suspect vocal surgery might not be important.............

I've met a lot of trans girls when I was more actively involved in the work of our local trans support group and I was surprised to see how many of them just didn't care about their voice at all. Very few of them had a voice that passed.
Some of them doesn't care about passing that much, some of them deluded themselves into thinking that they just pass fine in every situation because people rarely point out that they have been clocked.

Quite a few of them worked in the same area as me, some of them even in the same building, so I had the chance to observe how others perceive them. They were always clocked because of their voices if they passed otherwise.
People usually don't tell them that they know, but they still gossip about them behind their backs.

I want to be perceived as a woman and my inadequate voice plays a large part in not going full-time for years. Most of those girls thought I would transition quickly because on a good day I can pass without HRT and makeup but that's really not enough for me.

Edit: And even if I take out passing from the equation, I just don't like my voice the way it is, it doesn't allow me to express myself the way I want to.

Quote from: Katie on October 10, 2018, 07:29:51 AM
Please understand for me transition was just a process to a final goal of being integrated into society as any other girl. That was MY OWN point of view. I do realize there are some people that have no issue being a trans person in the eyes of the world and for them I suspect vocal surgery might not be important.............

I agree. If you blend in with other women, a whole lot of uncomfortable realities are avoided. There's a very clear difference, even among people who intend to be accepting and understanding. People aren't always aware of how they act differently.

I think a lot of people, rather than actually believing their innate gender identity to be on a spectrum between male and female, eventually settle into the "gender doesn't exist" lifestyle because they feel they'll never be able to pass sufficiently well for their own tastes (which, accepting that in-between is the real meaning of "conforming to [others'] ideals" or points of view, as in those who will not fully accept them as female etc.). I personally know people who have told me they will not transition for that very reason, and they don't want a half-measure. One way or another, a lot of us thirst for the therapeutic effects of not having the gender with which we were improperly designated at birth taint our interactions with others for the rest of our lives, thank you very much.

The word trans has a broad and expansive definition these days, but we should be cautious to look carefully at what we encounter, and remember that it was decades of research at the most prestigious institutions which led to full social and surgical transition being written into the medical literature as something that is real in human psychology and has value to individuals and society at large. Some of the far-left wing gender theories throw all definitions of gender out the window as meaningless; which, in a twisted irony, is basically using theories that have the same amount of scientific validation currently offered to Otherkin to erase the research-based precedents that made it possible for their own progressive identities to emerge with any kind of descriptive substance in the first place.

Quote from: Lynne on October 10, 2018, 02:51:32 PM
I've met a lot of trans girls when I was more actively involved in the work of our local trans support group and I was surprised to see how many of them just didn't care about their voice at all. Very few of them had a voice that passed.
Some of them doesn't care about passing that much, some of them deluded themselves into thinking that they just pass fine in every situation because people rarely point out that they have been clocked.

This is my experience as well. A lot of people would pass so much better with a proper voice adjustment. Using your voice shouldn't be something "hard" that you have to practice and takes effort to use. It's supposed to be natural, or it'll feel fake and that will wear you down over the years.

I think a couple posters who replied to me have been conned into thinking that how others perceive your gender expression is insignificant - maybe those posters just lack any ability to read how someone is responding to their own voice or presentation (or maybe they're extremely anti-social and don't care) but the nature of wanting to transition is rooted in the desire to live up to your own ideals for yourself and your own gender expression - by its own nature, that has nothing to do with what others want for you, it has to do with what you want for yourself; I, too, am aghast of the idea of someone shortchanging herself over one of the most vital and newly-polished aspects of that self-actualization process (VFS) that has made an enormous difference in my quality of life.

Quote from: Lynne on October 10, 2018, 02:51:32 PM
Quite a few of them worked in the same area as me, some of them even in the same building, so I had the chance to observe how others perceive them. They were always clocked because of their voices if they passed otherwise.
People usually don't tell them that they know, but they still gossip about them behind their backs.

I want to be perceived as a woman and my inadequate voice plays a large part in not going full-time for years. Most of those girls thought I would transition quickly because on a good day I can pass without HRT and makeup but that's really not enough for me.

Edit: And even if I take out passing from the equation, I just don't like my voice the way it is, it doesn't allow me to express myself the way I want to.

Yep. Your point of view sounds exactly like what I've observed as well. Being able to express yourself fully and authentically is what life is all about. It's why we risk everything for the chance to make the outside match the inside.

For a couple years I worked for the state doing HIV prevention targeting transgender people. I sat in on my share of so called support groups...

I have not been to a support group in many years because what I saw was people supporting each others dysfunction. One of my favorites was someone that would come to the support groups claiming to be transsexual and in transition but looked like any guy off the street. Someone told me that person been going to the group claiming to be in transition for 10 YEARS!!!!!!!!!! 10 YEARS and nothing that anyone could detect to show for it, I kid you not......

The day I left that job was the last day I ever spent any physical time in the trans community. I occasionally come to these web sites but outside of that I just live in the normal world like any other girl NEVER talking about my past with people. Crap I got married recently to a great guy...... I did everything it took to be a woman instead of a transgender person. I am very happy with the results..

Mind you it took a crap load of blood sweat and tears and sacrifice to be the person I am today. NO baby steps or half ass attempts. I have not talked to my parents or sister in years, I moved away from where I transitioned and started a new life with no baggage. I did not make excuses, I just did what it took to be the person I knew I was.

When people here talk about getting a female voice I smile often because quite frankly one of the best ways to get a reasonable voice is to actually go full time IN THE REAL WORLD not around other trans people. When ->-bleeped-<- is real a person will try a hell of a lot harder. Add to that vocal surgery and many people can have a dam nice voice.

Of course you can see all the excuses under the sun for not doing this or that, i have to remind myself the world is filled with those that do and those that dont...............

Wow - there are some really great ideas and stories being discussed here.

I think a hard, honest discussion like this is very helpful for people to ponder and come to terms with.

Thank you,

Sonja.

It is so refreshing to hear the clear, strong and clarion voices of strong women speaking freely and forthrightly about their experiences in the real world and presenting a clear contrast to the stifling restrictions of life according to the trans narrative.
We should all be free to live our lives according to what we as individuals see as what is best  for us as the free thinking individuals that we are and not feel a need to conform to what the "conventional thinking" tells us is the best way to go.

Quote from: Complete on October 14, 2018, 09:50:39 PM
It is so refreshing to hear the clear, strong and clarion voices of strong women speaking freely and forthrightly about their experiences in the real world and presenting a clear contrast to the stifling restrictions of life according to the trans narrative.
We should all be free to live our lives according to what we as individuals see as what is best  for us as the free thinking individuals that we are and not feel a need to conform to what the "conventional thinking" tells us is the best way to go.

Well said!

Quote from: Katie on October 13, 2018, 08:01:23 PM

When people here talk about getting a female voice I smile often because quite frankly one of the best ways to get a reasonable voice is to actually go full time IN THE REAL WORLD not around other trans people. When ->-bleeped-<- is real a person will try a hell of a lot harder. Add to that vocal surgery and many people can have a dam nice voice.

Of course you can see all the excuses under the sun for not doing this or that, i have to remind myself the world is filled with those that do and those that dont...............

Yes.  There are a lot of transitioners who will occasionally try to practice their female voice, but who constantly drop back to their male voice, in private, in support groups, with family, etc.  "It's hard...  I don't need it with friends/family..."

Here's the thing.  We are creatures of habit, with lots of things that have 'default' states.  We have our default behaviors, default mannerisms, and these include our default voices.  The only way to change our default states to something new is to practice, practice, practice what we want the default to be, and never, ever go back to the old settings we are trying to get rid of.

If we don't change the default state for many of our mannerisms, including voice, then when we are not concentrating on mannerisms or voice, we are very likely to slip back to the old default, a more masculine walk or stance, that male voice, even behavior like 'mansplaining'.  In a culture with a strong gender binary, this quickly 'outs' us when we slip, and that can have unpleasant consequences.

(Yes, I am familiar with arguments that we should just 'be ourselves'  to somehow become more accepted.  Perhaps, in a few generations, that might even have an effect on the broader culture.  I need to live my life now, though.)

I practice my voice and movement 24/7, and have been doing this for the entire time I have been full-time.  I am fortunate in having a voice range that could be exercised to include a normal female range, and in having had access to a speech therapist for  several months to coach me.  Currently, I use a set of apps on my phone to monitor the daily pitch exercises I still run through, as well as checking the speaking range I use when reciting from texts, as when i teach a course or am doing a presentation.

I've been at this constantly for two years, and feel that my feminine voice is finally becoming my default voice, and I am able to speak and lecture in the proper pitch range.  Over this time, my prosody has improved from constantly conversing with friends i've made the past two years, women who learned prosody the old fashioned way, being raised with it.  I've picked up quite a bit of this from immersion in the broader culture of women.

I personally consider this the real purpose of my Real Life Experience, the immersion in the feminine side of my culture and my learning to just be one of the girls, in manner, speech, and other aspects of my gender presentation.  I'm still me, of course, but have been working very hard to fit in and be seen as just another woman.  I want to avoid accidentally outing myself by inappropriate default behaviors showing when I am distracted.

Two years on, and I am finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.  It takes time to replace decades of old behaviors, old patterns of speech and vocalization.   I'm getting there.

(This is turning into another whole article.  I'm cutting myself off here before I need to start chapters...)

Quote from: sarahc on September 29, 2018, 10:07:44 AM
I have seen many women here wait several years before pursuing VFS after years of voice therapy and training. But given that voice is a critical part of passing and a meaningful source of dysphoria, I wonder why women generally don't pursue it earlier in transition, especially if using a female voice causes strain.

I understand that VFS has meaningful risks, isn't always effective, creates significant personal disruption and is not a substitute for therapy. Hence, it's been thought of as an operation to pursue only as a last resort. Still, if you're going to do it, it seems like something to do earlier in transition rather than later.

What are people's thoughts on this?

I got VFS at my 10 month mark after just a few months therapy by Dr. Haben in Rochester NY and it was the best thing ever. I told my voice therapist "I feel there's something in my head holding me back that VFS will fix but I can't explain why I feel this way." This feeling went away after the surgery and two months post-op things are already great.   I'm only 1 year HRT at this stage so new to so much, however if ya want to see photos let me know and I can send you a PM with it.

Specifics:
HRT: 12/16/2017 (5 days before turning 25)
VFS: 10/24/2018
Procedure: Triple
Adams apple shave done 4/20/2016 by Haben so knew he'd do a good job.

I had voice surgery with Dr. Spiegel in Boston at the beginning of October 2018. It was my first gender affirming surgery, before all others. I had my lower surgery several weeks later.  I mention this because I asked the anesthesiologist for my lower surgery (gcs) if that would be an issue with me getting VFS first. The anesthesiologist said that it wouldn't be an issue, and that they have devices that do not go beyond the vocal cords if I had any issues with the regional and had to be put under with a general that requires intubation. I would always recommend that you keep everyone informed before hand so they can have the equipment available to help you in case any complications arise. That said, i had severe vocal dysphoria and the VFS changed my life for the better. Best.

Quote from: HollyKay on January 09, 2019, 01:05:38 AM
I had voice surgery with Dr. Spiegel in Boston at the beginning of October 2018. It was my first gender affirming surgery, before all others. I had my lower surgery several weeks later.  I mention this because I asked the anesthesiologist for my lower surgery (gcs) if that would be an issue with me getting VFS first. The anesthesiologist said that it wouldn't be an issue, and that they have devices that do not go beyond the vocal cords if I had any issues with the regional and had to be put under with a general that requires intubation. I would always recommend that you keep everyone informed before hand so they can have the equipment available to help you in case any complications arise. That said, i had severe vocal dysphoria and the VFS changed my life for the better. Best.

Thank you for your reply. That's a very affirming story. I'm leaning now towards making VFS my first surgery. I know the risks but it just seems like a good outcome can be truly life changing and really helps one achieve a successful transitioned life.

Everyone's transition is different. My voice and adam's apple give me more dysphoria than my genitals. For a lot of people it's the other way around. Voice training would be fine I'm sure but just knowing my voice can go into a male range gives me intense dysphoria. We all have our triggers and one's justification for having VFS may not apply to others as we are all unique.

Quote from: Ellement_of_Freedom on January 09, 2019, 05:52:43 PM
Everyone's transition is different. My voice and adam's apple give me more dysphoria than my genitals. For a lot of people it's the other way around. Voice training would be fine I'm sure but just knowing my voice can go into a male range gives me intense dysphoria. We all have our triggers and one's justification for having VFS may not apply to others as we are all unique.

^---- that's exactly how I feel too - voice is really important to me, but I know for others it's not as important as other steps.