It seems to me that the compulsion to a TS to alter their bodies to bring them into alignment with their inner gender is matched -- or exceeded --  by the compulsion for Others who come in contact with the TS to tell them they 'mustn't' undergo transition (not even 'putting that $#!^ in your body',) that they 'should' live out their lives in their birth-body-gender 'for their own good,' then hand out the you-can-be-a-woman-in-your-drams-that's-okay booby-prize (no pun intended,) because the Other got what he/she wanted -- to prevent the TS from transitioning.

Why is that compulsion so strong, and so widespread?  Are you Others really giving such counsel for the benefit of the TS who desperately wants/needs/is obsessed with transition, or for Your benefit?

To the TS:  I wish that, like the homes for unwed mothers of yesteryear, there were a place we could go 'visit' for two or three years and come back fully transitioned.  When we came back, we'd still have to deal with a lot of $#!^ from those who knew us before and whose expectation apple-cart we upset, but we'd have a chance of making new friends/acquaintances/contacts who -- because their perception of us was untainted by our 'before' selves, would be more likely to accept us as we are.  This, I think, is the root of the desire of the TS to 'pass'.

It's sad but true that there are people in the world who feel the cruel, irrational (MY judgement,) 'need' to punish/put down/treat as sub-human anyone they believe is strange/weird/freak.  I know these people well, having been forced by the many "Them"s to deal with their sick, cruel words and actions because they perceived me as different/effeminate/weird/freak/etc.  I've (wrongly) been called '->-bleeped-<-got!' by these sociopaths.  If I transition, that's going to increase (and they'll still wrongly call me '->-bleeped-<-got!"...) -- I know it to be so, but now I'll know the reason for their deeds.  If I do nothing (i.e., not transition,) It won't go away -- if I spend enough time interacting with others, another sociopath will identify me, and another, and another...

Cast in that light, what choice do I have?

Haz

Quote from: spouse on March 14, 2006, 07:49:27 AMIf mastectomies became fashionable or logical for the general female population and ?everyone is doing it?, it would stand to reason that the MTF TS would not want breast development in order to blend in?to APPEAR female.

I don't know... it might depend on the person. For myself, having breasts is something I'm very much looking forward to, because to me they're a part of femaleness. It wasn't always this way... before I knew I needed to transition, breasts were just not a part of my personal definition of what a female person was. I determined people's gender by their face, voice, body language - that was it. Only when I was able to simulate having breasts myself did I realize how great it would be to have them for real. 

Quote from: Hazumu on March 14, 2006, 10:01:23 AMI wish that, like the homes for unwed mothers of yesteryear, there were a place we could go 'visit' for two or three years and come back fully transitioned.

What a great idea!!! Makes me wish I had the $$$ to set one up. But then, I guess it would have to run on donations and I don't know how much there would be to go around.

Quote from: spouse on March 14, 2006, 07:49:27 AMFemininity is a CHARACTERISTIC of the female sex, not a definition of it...

What an excellent post! All questions I've been asking myself for a couple decades, lol.

My first therapist asked me a simple question which totally stumped me: "Why do you want to be a woman?"

Sounds simple, right? But try as I might, I just couldn't come up with any "because then I could..." answers. It was then that I realized that for me, the drive is to be FEMALE, and not necessarily to be feminine. I don't want to be female "in order to..." anything. I'm not looking for an excuse to wear sexy clothes. I don't want an excuse to act feminine. I don't particularly covet the woman's role in society. I'm not trying to have sex with men.

That's not to say I don't feel more at home being feminine, wearing women's clothing, and acting in traditionally female roles. But they're all consequences, artifacts of being female, and not the goal or driving force behind my urge to transition.

What I seem to need is to switch contexts, to operate from and be perceived in the context of a female - with all the resulting implications (but not FOR those implications). True, if society was perfectly accepting of TSism, and granted me the legal recognition and social roles of being female (while remaining physically male), that would at least grant me the context of being treated as a female. But in the end, that would be no different than if I put on a wig and dress and managed to "pass" every day as a woman. I'd be "faking" it, and I'd be constantly aware of that.

So it's not the results or consequences that I seek and need, it's the cause, the context that creates them...

QuoteMy first therapist asked me a simple question which totally stumped me: "Why do you want to be a woman?"

I remember being asked that! My answer was "Because I am." How did I know I was? I don't know, but that didn't lessen the fact that I KNEW!

Why do people fight us? Because they have not the least idea what it feels like! They are at home in their own bodies - we ARE NOT! - not until after they are repaired.

I was asked that too. What do you think would be different if you were a man? I said that I felt that I would feel that people were seeing me, not someone they've constructed in my place.

The therapist then asked what would be different in your life if people saw you as male? I said that I didn't think anything concrete would. I didn't expect that doors would open that were previously closed, or that anything else earth shaking would happen, just that I would feel more comfortable in my body.

Which has (mostly) turned out to be true. There are still social aspects that are a little odd for me. I must develop a more instinctive approach to handshaking and standing up when a woman enters the room, but I'm getting there.

edit: and the only "door" that has opened for me is the men's room, which isn't a place I would have gone through all this to get to.

Dennis

My goodness, it's all intriguing stuff that you'all brought up.  My subjective point of view:

SPOUSE - I heard my ex bringing up some of the same issues with me and I feel for your hurt and disillusionment.  You asked, "WHY must the body match the mind?  So SOCIETY sees what the TS feels?  It seems it all boils down to appearances."  I can only answer for me.  I transitioned because (1) I hated my appearance in the shower.  It disgusted me (obviously, this has nothing to do with society).  (2) The other reason I transitioned was because I felt more comfortable IN SOCIETY as a female.  It wasn't based on a desire for breasts (I never have had an interest in them - they're just there), clothes, makeup, stereotypical "feminine" things.  To tell you the truth, when I hear a commercial spouting "it makes me feel feminine" it makes me feel nauseous -- it's too cutesy for my taste. 

You asked if society treated me as a female (by my wearing female clothing) would I be satisfied?  I'd be 50% satisfied.  Unfortunately, it doesn't get rid of problem (1) my repulsion of my previously male body.

You stated that "Natal women in general set the standards for femininity.  Femininity is a CHARACTERISTIC of the female sex, not a definition of it."  Yes and no -- The male society (as supremacists) also set the tone for what is stereotypically "feminine" behavior.  In the 50's, for example, women were very subservient to "Father Knows Best."  "Check with your father"...."Oh, you're so clever, dear."  That kind of talk again turns my stomach.  I've always been a liberated person, both male and female.  These days, I feel that the ROLE society places men in is kind of a box.  Staying a man would have kept me in that box.  I enjoy a wider range of emotions, both happy and sad, both intellectual and silly.  Is it fair to put men in a box like that?  Of course not.  When will they ask for liberation?  So many don't realize they're in that box.  Obviously women have had many problems breaking that "glass ceiling" to advance in companies.  I see women as being more progressive than men as far as freedoms.

As to more "primitive" societies (who knows who is really more advanced?), the American Indian called people like us "two-spirits" and, like Jane said (about other primitive societies), considered us "gifted" with special vision and knowledge."  If society treated me that way, again it would solve only 50% of the problem -- it wouldn't get rid of the hatred of my former body.

Spouse, you talked about how bulemics and regular women can have distorted views of their beauty and so opt for operations.  I didn't do this to look more beautiful.  My goal was like the goal of a lot of TS's:  To look like an AVERAGE woman.  You might want to talk to F2M's about their reasons for transition.  It helped me feel more at peace with my decision to transition.  Society doesn't go around criticizing them because of frivolous pretty appearance issues.  It could be that the male is just considered wiser by society and thus shouldn't be questioned.  Women often are portrayed by society as stereotypical blonde airheads.  The fact that some women enjoy acting like silly blondes (like Marilyn Monroe's in "Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend") just reinforces that negative image.  If we want to transition to be females, surely something must be wrong with us?  It must be as trivial as the already beautiful wealthy Beverly Hills heiress wanting multiple cosmetic surgeries.  It's more complicated than that.
_____________________________________

JANE - You mentioned that "the figure for the high success rate [of SRS] originated in the early days of SRS and were based on the number of patients who simply disappeared into the woodwork after SRS."  Simply disappearing is not a valid poll.  There are plenty of people I know who have lost their unemployment insurance because they STILL can't find work.  Yet, the government insists that we have 4% unemployment.  Only 4% are REGISTERED.  The true statistics for both could be quite different.

You said, "Were I to live alone on a remote island, I would have taken an ax and hacked it off myself!"  While I agree totally with this - I feel the same way - I sometimes wonder if (1) that island only had one inhabitant, me, and (2) I didn't know what women looked like, would I have wanted to grab that ax?  Would this gender dysphoria have arisen in me?  I doubt it because I wouldn't have known any better.  Perhaps I might have felt a body-mind mismatch but wouldn't know why?  Seemingly, "gender dysphoria" requires you to live in a society of both men and women -- by observing women as you grow up, you come to the realization that, inside, that woman acts, talks, emotes more like me.  Why don't I look like her?
_____________________________________

HAZ - Your idea for a home for beginning TS's has crossed my mind, too.  It is a natural human emotion to seek out people of your own kind.  When I was in Montreal for my SRS, Dr. Menard had a house by a lake wherein we all stayed both before and after the operations.  Sometimes, Menard would suggest that the scheduled patient come a few days early before the SRS.  I did that and had the time of my life talking with people in my same boat.  My fondest recollection was meeting F2M's for the first time.  It, as I mentioned earlier, gave me peace to know that they were going in the opposite direction. 

I was always a fan of the TV show, "Twilight Zone," especially those episodes wherein bodies and minds were mixed.  I daydreamed of a future when F2M's and M2F's would simply trade brains rather than undergo today's primitive costly painful multi-year efforts to transition.  Part of the angst for Spouse, I'm sure, is that it's such a long process.  You don't know at what point you may get freaked out.  I wonder how Spouse would feel if Lori, in the future, had a one brain-transition operation, and Lori walked out in a female body (rather than an altered male body).  When Lori spoke and Spouse would HEAR her loved one's voice and heart, would she walk away so easily?  How much of Spouse's angst is because the technology of transition is so primitive and it takes so darn long?  I think acceptance for us would be better all around.  Coworkers would see a NORMAL female body (not necessarily beautiful - just average) and HEAR the voice of their coworker.  I can't imagine coworkers not gathering around and giving her a hug of congratulations.  Yes, I too "have a dream."
____________________________________

UMOP - You said, "Only when I was able to simulate having breasts myself did I realize how great it would be to have them for real."  Like I said earlier, I was never into breasts.  Neither as a man or a woman.  They're just fat tissue.  I know men consider them crazily -- there certainly have been enough jokes about that in films.  I haven't discussed it with GG's but I have a feeling that they think like me:  they're just body parts.  I once saw a foreign film called "Claire's Knee" wherein the hero of the tale fantacized how wonderful it would be to touch Claire's knee.  I only bring it up because any body part can be an object of infatuation.  Just don't let that infatuation lead you down a dangerous road of transition because you think it will be soooo wonderful.  After a few months of having them, you'll probably ignore them like me.  A new car is exciting.  An old car is transportation.
____________________________________

KATE - You sound like me, correcting the often assumed presumption that we transition for clothes or acting feminine.  To tell you the truth, as a "postie," I talk and act a heck of a lot like my former male self.  Granted that I was never stereotypically "manly."  But I wasn't and am not effeminate either.  I act the way average women act.  Some TS voice training people note that women often will end their sentences, going up in tone and in a questioning manner, like they're not sure.  My ex pointed out that women news anchors talk in monotones to match their counterparts and it gives them a business-like demeanor.  People take them seriously.  Hearing that, I decided to just alter my pitch up a little and speak the way I speak.  I don't NEED to speak in a stereotypically female manner because body language and tone do wonders. 

There's another difference between myself and a lot of women:  I hate women in stores describing EVERY garment as "cute."  Surely educated women can come up with some other adjective?  But I have my silly moments, too, and feel peace in that people smile rather than look at me strangely.  The "context," as you say, makes my being me gender appropriate.
_____________________________________

JANE - I've always liked your definition of why you wanted to be a woman -- "Because I am."  It's so simple and eloquent.  As to people fighting us "because they have not the least idea what [being in the wrong body] feels like" -- It's probably like all minorities, nobody knows how it feels until they walk in our shoes.  A black jury let football player/actor Simpson free because they knew what it felt like to be racially profiled and picked upon.  White America was stunned...

And many or most in America are stunned about us, too.  Looking at it from their point of view, it makes no sense.

Teri Anne

Quoteby observing women as you grow up, you come to the realization that, inside, that woman acts, talks, emotes more like me.  Why don't I look like her?

Funny you should mention that since that was my earliest realization that something was wrong. I always thought I WAS a girl, just like all other girls, until about age 6 or 7 when a bunch of the kids were having a little "show me your's and I'll show you mine" in the back of the shool yard - that's when I found out none of the other girls had an "outie" - they all had "innies"! I had no idea what that meant at the time and thought puberty would set everything right. It is beyond the comprehension of a child that anything could be so fundamentally  WRONG!

Quote from: Northern Jane on March 14, 2006, 02:59:13 PM
Funny you should mention that since that was my earliest realization that something was wrong. I always thought I WAS a girl, just like all other girls, until about age 6 or 7 when a bunch of the kids were having a little "show me your's and I'll show you mine" in the back of the shool yard...

This reminded me of a locker room incident when I was around 6ish: my mother took me to swimming lessons at the local high school, and afterwards I had to change back into normal clothes in a locker room crowded with boys... and I just could not bring myself to undress in front of them. I actually pulled my pants over on top of my wet trunks and ran out. I never thought I *was* a girl physically, yet it just seemed so fundamentally wrong for them to see me naked somehow.

My wife suggested that perhaps I was just still uncomfortable undressing in front of crowds in general, but I don't think so. I really had no idea about genital differences at that age, but I knew I didn't feel like "one of the boys," so it seemed to breaking a taboo for them to see me like that. It sounds insane, but I think I feared that if they saw me naked, they'd figure out that I *wasn't* really a boy, my little secret would be "exposed." It's all so confusing, lol...

That's an interesting thought Kate.  I felt that way too, but I always assumed everyone felt that way.  I'll have to ponder that some more.

Melissa

Kate and Melissa - Two memories of mine:

In junior high, I was taking a shower in the boy's locker room and was shocked to feel a warm sensation on my leg.  I looked down and a boy was peeing on my leg.  I went to the principal's office to complain but never heard if they did anything about it.  I never mentioned it to my parents.  It still disgusts me to think about it.

In high school, I talked our phys ed teacher into allowing me to do his office work instead of changing clothes in the locker rooms and running around outside with the boys.  He knew me as a brainy one and so accepted my offer.  A few weeks later, I was late for P.E..  The teacher had a rule that those who were late got a swat in the behind with a big wooden paddle (while others looked on).  Seeing me late, the kids began mouthing "Oooooooooo," in expectation that I'd get a swat.  I didn't look in their direction and just kept walking into the office.  I had a legitimate excuse and nothing else happened.  But I still remember that taunt-like, "Oooooooooo."

Needless to say, I hated P.E. and all the macho bully crap.  Now, I hear with that young women in school are becoming more and more rude like the guys.  If things change too much, maybe I'll have to find something else to be.

Teri Anne

I guess the best analogy for me before and after transition is that before transition I always felt like I was wearing a costume that I couldn't remove. People were interacting with the costume, not me. It's a horribly dissociative feeling. Now I feel like they're seeing me for the first time.

One of the other lawyers said to me "I didn't get the whole Dennis/Denise thing at first, but now seeing you, it's obvious that you're much more comfortable as Dennis."

Dennis

Quote from: Teri Anne on March 14, 2006, 04:59:26 PM
  Now, I hear with that young women in school are becoming more and more rude like the guys.  

Perhaps the women are co-opting the male power structure.  If they take the  power then the women force the men to deal with them on equal footing.  Its the same as in a corporate board meeting.  A secretary is treated differently than another women who sits on the board and has voting power.   Its all about real or imagined equality.

Leigh

Quote from: Northern Jane on March 14, 2006, 08:28:37 AM
First, on the 50% suicides: I escaped in 1974 and lost contact with the TS community when I went stealth. Prior to that time I had perhaps a dozen close friends who were TS and attended 3 funerals - that's a 25% mortality rate. There were others who just dropped out of sight and nobody knew what happened to them. Myself and one other girl escaped in 1973/74 and I don't know what happened to those who were left behind.

The figure for the high success rate originated in the early days of  SRS and were based on the number of patients who simply disappeared into the woodwork after SRS. One must remember that SRS was extremely hard to come by in the 1960's and 1970's. For an individual to reach SRS, they had already been through the grist mill and suffered god-knows how much sh!@ and abuse. To reach SRS was an indication that the person was strong, fairly smart, damned determined, and fairly resourceful. If a person had the where-with-all to beat the odds, they had a  pretty good chance at success on the other side.

Spouse: In a great many "primitive" societies, transsexual individuals are accepted and respected members of the community and live in their chosen gender role. They are often highly respected as being "gifted" with special vision and knowledge.

I can not speak for others but for me, a former TS, the need to alter the body was intense and had nothing to do with the rest of the world. Were I to live alone on a remote island, I would have taken an ax and hacked it off myself! I  AM a woman - 32 years post-op have proven that to me - and I always WAS a woman/girl and that is why I hated that deformity so. I lived a dual life for over a decade (my teens) so I had the opportunity to live part of that time the way I felt I should have been from birth but all that did was to intensify my hatred of being deformed. I was never "a man" or "a boy" and I was punished for "acting feminine" but no punishment could stop me from being and feeling what I felt.

My adopted Mom opposed my transition right up to the day I left. I told her I had to be free or die - she said "It would be better you killed yourself than to do this." Since that  day in the spring of 1974 I have live a wondrous and glorious life - a thousand times better than my wildest dreams - and turned out to be a far better person than I had any hope of becoming. I am happy, well adjusted (better than most people in general), productive, and touch people everyday in a good way, and fully integrated into womanhood many years ago. Of the thousands of people I know and who know me, the idea that I was ever anything other than "just another woman" would be inconceivable!

Transition? For me, the difference between Heaven and Hell

My reply to your post will be succinct... "Amen"

Steph

HAZ - As one of the "others" with a vested interest in one of "your people", I would certainly love it if my husband chose not to transition. My apple-cart wouldn't be upset. That's the selfish side of me. I know he will annoy and aggravate anyone he has to so he can get the information he needs to decide what is best for him. If he concludes that transitioning would be the best thing for him, I will support his decision 100%. I love him *at least* that much.

If you start up one of those homes for transitioning TS's or find that one already exists, I'd happily make a donation.
                   
TERI - "...young women in school are becoming more and more rude like the guys.  If things change too much, maybe I'll have to find something else to be."    Are you f*%#ing nuts? Just kidding... Women/girls who are rude and sassy have been around for a looooong time. Perhaps it wasn't apparent to you in your prior male box. People, we must remember that gay, straight, transsexual, whatever... we are all individuals. There are those in the ranks who embarrass the rest. There are rude women, there are nice women. There are tactless women, there are very proper women. There are rude transsexuals, there are nice transsexuals. You at least tolerate "your own kind."

You stated "I hated my appearance in the shower." Again, *appearance*. Like the woman who hates her nose or a hidden, yet offending, mole which MUST be corrected. Either society doesn't like your appearance or you don't like your appearance. The questions I posed were partly rhetorical, just thinking out loud. What if...we were all asexual and featureless but for a single hair on a "male" head and no hair on a "female" head? The MTF TS would pluck the hair and, voila, do-it-yourself GRS! Then that female would immediately blend in and no one would be the wiser. To make a u-turn, simply let the hair grow back.   

"I sometimes wonder if (1) that island only had one inhabitant, me, and (2) I didn't know what women looked like, would I have wanted to grab that ax?"--very well put. So much of what we feel is driven by what we see.

You also stated "It wasn't based on a desire for breasts (I never have had an interest in them - they're just there)..." Yet you have breast implants? Why? There are many flat-chested women out there. (I was one of them. I didn't like it.) Why have another expensive surgery if breasts don't matter to you? To APPEAR more feminine? So clothes fit better? Just rhetorical questions really.
                   
I admire all of you. I believe it takes immense courage and strength to be who you are, whether you transition or not. I hope that if I pass any of you on the street I wouldn't give you a second glance because...you're one of "us."

Swim trunks... yea, been there did that; chocked it up to shyness.

"your people" ... This is not a you vs them arrangement. I am human, so are you.

P.E. ... I rarely went to that class, if I did I did not participate.

Because...
I started out this life with a determination to be male; I spent 29 years, 11 months in that frame of mind. I fully intended to live all of this life as male. I tried my best. What does it take to compel someone to throw all of that away? For me: Because I could not hide anymore; Because I did not want to; Because I WILL NOT hide anymore.

By the by I've never cared much for what society thinks; My 'male mode' has 10 earrings, long hair and purple nails... I do not fit a society approved demographic.

It does not matter if any one else understands, without a frame of context I really don't expect them to.

http://www.cauldronfarm.com/writing/wouldbeletter.html

Hi, Spouse.  I'm glad you liked my point that, if I didn't know what women looked like, would I still grab that ax?  What I said might be considered odd for a TS to say but one thing my best friend tells me is that she's "never met someone who tries to be so honestly open" when talking of myself or my feelings.  I'm not trying to win any arguments nor sway you over to the TS way of thinking.  I put out my inner thoughts and if something clicks or doesn't click, so be it.  One of my happiest recent moments was when a TS told me that, because I had related that I had deep regrets in asking my wife to leave during my transition (in my mind, for her own good), this TS saw that she should let her wife make up her own mind.  And, hopefully, they'll stay together.

Yes, I know women can be cruel.  You're right in saying that's nothing new.  My comment about rude young women probably should have had more details -- there was a CBS nightly news story on the other day talking of how young women were becoming, not just rude, but VIOLENT with punching and knifing others in schools.  They cited it as happening more and more often.  In some of my other posts, I've mentioned how, after transitioning, many TS's discover that there really isn't THAT much difference between the genders.  I know I came to feel that way -- that so much of what we consider to be gender is not nature -- it's nurture.  While obviously men and women have many differences, it's funny how many things that society considers "feminine" or "masculine" is PROGRAMMED into the kiddies.  How men and women act in society is, to some extent, how society EXPECTS each of them to act.  Spouse, I can perhaps hear you wondering, if I know this male-female thing may be a bunch of bunk, why transition?  Maybe it comes back to me, as a child, looking up at my mom and realizing I was more like her than men around her (I have 3 brothers).  So why did I look different from her?  Maybe it's a comfort thing.  And inability to relate to men's way of thinking, talking or acting.  When I was together with my ex, I often felt I was playing a role of man of the house.  It sounds silly but it's true.

I know it's a horrible position you're in.  I try to imagine what it'd be like if my ex had transitioned to being a male.  Offhand, the idea disgusts me.  But maybe in time, like I'm suggesting to you, you'll ignore the exterior and find your husband is still alive.  Another thought occurs to me -- you've pointed out how we sometimes bring up appearance and you comment, "Again, appearance."  I wonder if you've considered directing your comment back at yourself?  In other words, if appearance shouldn't be important to us, why should appearance be important to you?  It's an unfair question, I know, because you didn't START this flip of Lori's appearance.  In 1999, in my "coming out" card to several friends I posed the question that "if we are really, in fact, spirits when we die, does it REALLY matter what we look like now?"  While it did generate food for thought, I still empathize with you, Spouse.  I wish I could find the words to make your hurting stop.

Spouse, I think you may have me mixed up with some other TS in regards to my breasts.  I never had breast surgery and don't even wear a padded bra.  I wear B size that is just fine for me.  My best friend has larger breasts and she clued me in, during transition, to how it's a pain in the neck (and back) to have larger breasts.  Because, as I mentioned, I have no interest in breasts (mine or anyone else's), I'm the last person who'd have breast augmentation.  On top of everything else, I hear that surgery can have a painful recovery period.  Noooo thanks!

Thank you for the kind comment, Spouse, at the end of your post, complimenting the many inhabitants of Susan's.  I was wondering if your opinion on anything about TS's has changed over your time here?   You don't need to talk about your relationship issues.  I was just wondering in general whether anything made sense?

Teri Anne

QuoteKnowing I may have to sets up all the fears. Knowing I could never go back to the starting point gives me fears of knowing I have to be right. Coming up with the right decision is causing the churning. Perhaps I should take a mini vacation from myself...lol..right..like that will happen

Hi Lori:

This is an interesting topic.  You know as you said perhaps you should take a vacation from yourself.  This isn't such a lol statement.  Perhaps to determine if this is right for you, you should consider doing the real life test of living/breathing female for a year.  After that is complete I am sure you would probably have all the facts you would need to determine if you should proceed with transitioning.  I am aware that you have previously said your wife will leave if you transition.  Let's not go there again....really IMHO there isn't any other way to decide if this is right for you.  According to all your posts, sounds like you've done a lot of research on the pro's and cons.  Why not set a time line, discuss it with your wife/family.  This lets everyone know where you are coming from.  Tell us what's holding you back from doing the real live test?

Am I being naive?  Believe me I am far from naive with this, but the experience that I do have with all of this is this:  Find out if this is what you want to do, find out what you have to do, do the real live test.  From an SO's point of view, waiting for your spouse to make that decision is just as destructful for them.  Once the decision has been made, you are back in control.  That goes for both spouses.

Gill

Teri, my point about appearance is that I believe it IS important to all of us is one way or another, whether we admit it or not. Some TSs claim the clothes, make-up, hair, etc aren't important to them, yet IF they want to APPEAR female and blend in, some form of superficial transformation is necessary.

Appearance is quite important to me, obviously. If my husband transitions and I stay with HER, how will society see ME? I don't have the guts to say "->-bleeped-<- 'em all." I want a more normal life and to be accepted in society. I want my kids to have the same. I'll love my husband whether he transitions or not. I just can't share a life/home/bed with HER.

To include the report that young women are becoming more violent certainly puts a different spin on things. I stated we tolerate our own kind, but I would hope that we will never learn to tolerate their violence. Geez, are women regressing? Shouldn't we be above that?

Gill, I agree that a real life test, or some form of one, would be very beneficial for Lori. We've talked about it. I believe we finally have a plan in place, steps to take, before getting there. Everything just takes soooo much time.

Quote from: Kimberly on March 14, 2006, 11:25:48 PM
"your people" ... This is not a you vs them arrangement. I am human, so are you.

Kimberly, the "your people" was just a little jab at Haz for lumping "Others" (I assume signifant "others") together.

Teri, you asked if my opinion on anything about TSs has changed. Yes and no. Yes, I have acquired knowledge about transsexualism which has helped me better appreciate what my husband is going through, though I will never really understand it all. I appreciate the opinions and perspectives offered here, though we don't always agree. While my course hasn't changed if my husband becomes Lori, I can honestly wish her well and continue to love her and support her.

Quotethough I will never really understand it all

Sweetie, I lived through it and I don't understand it! All I know is what was (hell) and what is (Heaven).

QuoteSome TSs claim the clothes, make-up, hair, etc aren't important to them, yet IF they want to APPEAR female and blend in, some form of superficial transformation is necessary.

As one who has been "integrated" for 3 decades I agree with you 100% !