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Sigh... High T levels.

Started by lady amarant, March 31, 2008, 09:56:42 AM

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lady amarant

Okay, so I got my bloodwork back today.

Yay! I'm not dying.
Yay! Apparently one can be in the upper ranges of protein and B12 on a vegan diet. Eat THAT you paleolithic dieters!
Yay! I'm not diabetic

What?!! How can my Testosterone levels still be high?! I mean, I'm on a-high-dose-that-shall-not-be-named of Spiro, and with my potassium at the upper healthy range, I don't think it can be pushed up more.

Now granted, these blood tests were taken literally 3 or 4 days after starting oestrogen, but still. I've been on Spiro and Finasteride for almost a year now, and it's frustrating.

Interestingly, my TSH levels were also at the upper levels of normal, which makes me wonder WHAT the hell my body is doing.

Any observations and advice folks?

Posted on: 31 March 2008, 08:55:47
PS. Is there a rule against posting blood levels too?
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carol_w

With the high TSH levels, it sounds like you might be a bit hypothyroid.  If you want more information (what my docs say is ok for levels) PM me and we can discuss it off-line.  That
way, neither of us will get in trouble. 

Carol
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lisagurl

Mine went high for 3 months after starting. The body is battling the change.
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Kt

#3
I had a similar experience back when I had an endo, I was eventually put on an amount spiro which is pretty high.
Everyone's body is differint, some need more than others, probably the body is fighting the change somewhat.
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Just Mandy

I'm not sure I totally understand how the endo system works but I thought that your
body could not tell the difference between E and T and in fact if you take enough E
your body will regulate down the T naturally. I believe the use of anti-androgens
is a fairly recent thing but I'm not sure why. Can anyone enlighten us on how this
works and why anti-androgens were added?

Kirsa: forum rules frown on the discussion of dosages but I'm sure the moderators will
take care of that post for you :)

Amanda

Something sleeps deep within us
hidden and growing until we awaken as ourselves.
  •  

Beyond

Quote from: lady amarant on March 31, 2008, 09:56:42 AMWhat?!! How can my Testosterone levels still be high?! I mean, I'm on a-high-dose-that-shall-not-be-named of Spiro, and with my potassium at the upper healthy range, I don't think it can be pushed up more.

Now granted, these blood tests were taken literally 3 or 4 days after starting oestrogen, but still. I've been on Spiro and Finasteride for almost a year now, and it's frustrating.
Any observations and advice folks?

One word: Patience.  Given time, and a sufficient estrogen dose, a feedback loop will be created in the brain that tells the body to make less T.  Estrogen, in my opinion, is more important than Spiro.  Patience.
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lady amarant

Hehe. Thanks everybody. As usual I think I'm just over-panicking, which I am a known for! It is still early days, so hang around for my second round of tests in a few months and see how freaked I get then! ;D

~Simone,
       Zen Master of patient stillness.
  •  

Berliegh

Quote from: lady amarant on March 31, 2008, 09:56:42 AM
Okay, so I got my bloodwork back today.

Yay! I'm not dying.
Yay! Apparently one can be in the upper ranges of protein and B12 on a vegan diet. Eat THAT you paleolithic dieters!
Yay! I'm not diabetic

What?!! How can my Testosterone levels still be high?! I mean, I'm on a-high-dose-that-shall-not-be-named of Spiro, and with my potassium at the upper healthy range, I don't think it can be pushed up more.

Now granted, these blood tests were taken literally 3 or 4 days after starting oestrogen, but still. I've been on Spiro and Finasteride for almost a year now, and it's frustrating.

Interestingly, my TSH levels were also at the upper levels of normal, which makes me wonder WHAT the hell my body is doing.

Any observations and advice folks?

Posted on: 31 March 2008, 08:55:47
PS. Is there a rule against posting blood levels too?


Sometimes in some cases some anti - androgens work in reverse.....

I've never had any sufficient T levels, not even before HRT but some idiot endo from CX once put me on Zoladex which is an ingectable form of anti - angrogen and it worked in reverse on me. It was like someone had given me a shot of viagra.....talk about unwanted erections!
  •  

Kt

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on March 31, 2008, 11:19:48 AM
Kirsa: forum rules frown on the discussion of dosages but I'm sure the moderators will
take care of that post for you :)

Fixed, I didn't know that :)
  •  

NicholeW.

Simone, suppress the T w/ the Spiro only and the testicles and adrenals are going to produce more T. The regulation of the body reads that you are 'low' on T, so it produces at a greater rate.

Think of it as the same way dairy farmers keep cows producing milk: they put the cow into a constant hormonal state of pregnancy. Voila, milk-production. Until you start the E that state of affairs will continue.

The reason for the anti-androgens is that in the presence of T your feminization will be less with the estrogen. Lower the T and make the E's job easier.

N~
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Hypatia

The spiro doesn't lower T production or blood levels; it's a blocker. That means it has a certain molecular similarity to T so that it gloms onto the T receptors and keeps the T out of the cells. It'll still be there, but not having an effect.

But to actually lower the production and blood levels of T, you need plenty of E. Or else ditch the nuts (a far surer method!).
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
  •  

Keira

Its very hard with spiro alone to reduce T levels, but... It should not really matter since even with higher than female range T levels, since its not binding with T receptors, you'd still get demasculinasation.

How Spiro works is that it binds to T receptors (its the steroid aldactone btw).
In binding to the receptors, there's a lot of free unbinded T floating around,
the pituary sees this and says Whooaa too much sex hormones in the body
and instructs the testes to produce less (they're not shut down, they just
produce less). If you continue taking spiro, the body keeps reducing
the teste's output over time through iterations until the level of free T
becomes normal.

The reason this doesn't work perfectly in the case of spiro is that its
short lived, so unless you split your dose and take a sufficient dose
(which is different for everybody) to bind all receptors all the time,
some of the free T produced by the testes will be binded to T receptors
and so the retroactive shutdown of the testes can plateau depending
on dosage and when you take the pills.

When inserting a sex steroid in the system like E, your introducing
hormones than can actually be bound and the testes can be quickly
shut down even if some T receptors are still unbound.

The main reason for using spiro is that allows for a smaller dose of E
to effectively shut down the testes, with the added bonus of
immediate demasculinisation you don't get with estrogen
(you would have to wait till E shuts down the testes to get that).

For the pituary, there's no difference between T and E, that's why the testes
are shutdown by the insertion of exogenous E in the body. It is the same
reason the testes are shutdown if you're using steroids (bodybuilders
cycle them to prevent this and even use E for this reason!).


  •  

lady amarant

Hey everybody. Thanks SO much for all the information and advice and stuff. Much appreciated!

~Simone,
       Humbly Grateful.


Grateful yeah. The humbly I'll believe when I see it.
  •  

Kate

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on March 31, 2008, 08:40:04 PM
how about the minimal anti-androgenic effects of dutasteride or finasteride?  would they be enough to at least partially suppress enough t to make the e work better?

Dutasteride and finasteride RAISE serum T levels (or so say the manufacturers) by around 10-15%. Supposedly since less T is being converted into DHT, there's more floating around.

And yet, I know a rare side-effect of both drugs is breast swelling, sooooo... I have no idea what that all means, lol.

~Kate~

Posted on: April 01, 2008, 05:56:16 PM
Quote from: Hypatia on April 01, 2008, 12:03:07 AM
The spiro doesn't lower T production or blood levels...

Interesting! So when our blood tests show a serum T having been lowered into the female range, that's really an effect of the estrogen and NOT the spiro?

~Kate~
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lady amarant

Quote from: Kate on April 01, 2008, 03:59:35 PM
And yet, I know a rare side-effect of both drugs is breast swelling, sooooo... I have no idea what that all means, lol.

I can attest to SOMETHING happening along these lines. Mine started growing, albeit VERY slowly about three months before I even started Oestrogen.

~Simone
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NicholeW.

To get a real feel of what can and often does occur find one of the hair-loss for men sites on the net and just read it. Some of those guys are so terribly shocked to find that their breasts are growing when they are on Propecia or Avodart.

Spiro will have an effect on breast-growth, w or w/o E. At least, again, it manages to do so for males who are taking it for prostate problems. Another thing that will suppress T production is glucophage. That's often used for PCOS and other pre-diabetic treatments.

N~
  •  

Keira


The reason for breast swelling when there's too much T in the system is that
this T instead of being bound to T receptors (which is not possible if using
an anti-androgen that blocks the receptors) is available to be aromatised into E
by fats.

Same thing with finesteride or dutasteride, more free DHT (a type of T)
which is free to be aromatised into estrogen. Those with more fats in
their body and a higher propensity to aromatisation and sensitivity to
estrogen will react to this (usually its a low percentage ~2% of finesteride users).
Long term, that free DHT will mean a smaller production from the testes to compensate
so the amount of free T in the body should eventually level off to just about
normal levels. Then, the breast tissue should resorb itself in those that got it.
Only a very tiny amount of people get permanent breast enlargement from
a DHT inhibitor since unlike Spiro, it only blocks a small amount of T receptors,
not all of them.

Actually, Hypatia, Spiro DOES impact T produced, see my previous post
for mechanism of action.

  •  

Hypatia

#17
Quote from: Kate on April 01, 2008, 03:59:35 PM
Interesting! So when our blood tests show a serum T having been lowered into the female range, that's really an effect of the estrogen and NOT the spiro?
Well, as Keira explained, it's mostly but not entirely an effect of the estrogen. E is the surest way to cut down on T production (after orchidectomy). When my endocrinologist found my serum T levels too high, he raised my dosage of E. As a result, at my next bloodwork, I had gotten the T down into the normal female range.
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
  •  

seldom

Without estrogen your T levels will be higher.  Estrogen (and in some cases progesterone) blocks Testosterone more then Spiro and DHT blockers, only block DHT.
So your T levels being high is not unusual.  Once you stated you have only been on estrogen for few days it was very obvious to me what the problem was...anti-androgens alone do not block t to the same effect as they do when combined with female hormones.  If you were expecting female levels with just anti-androgens, you were misinformed.  It is the E that does most of the work, not the anti-androgens which just block the receptors to encourage E absorption rates.
  •  

Seshatneferw

Quote from: Nichole on April 01, 2008, 04:18:20 PM
To get a real feel of what can and often does occur find one of the hair-loss for men sites on the net and just read it. Some of those guys are so terribly shocked to find that their breasts are growing when they are on Propecia or Avodart.

Yes, well, it's easy to see why a real man would freak out, especially the kind who aims for a youthfully masculine look. Last autumn when I started with finasteride, things started happening so fast that it really was a surprise and even something of a shock, even though I liked (and hoped for) this side effect. The pace slowed after a couple of months, though, so that at the half-year mark my breasts have just about reached the size where a female-cut blouse is starting to fit better than a male shirt. Then again, I've lost some weight during that time too, which might be one of the reasons for the slowing pace (but also affect how my old clothes fit, or don't).  Anyway, time will tell whether they start to disappear again. If they do, I guess it'll be time to look for other options.

  Nfr
Whoopee! Man, that may have been a small one for Neil, but it's a long one for me.
-- Pete Conrad, Apollo XII
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