Quote from: redfish the postmodern on March 30, 2008, 09:33:39 PM
i think u guys r pretty cool

you get the postmodern socially constructed redfish seal of approval 

I concur. Androgynes FTW!

That's funny, I'd always assumed that FTW stood for "F|_|ck the world" -- a cry of defiance. If they don't accept me as I am, f|_|ck the world! Actually, that was exactly the phrase used by more than one of the transgender panelists about how they dealt with rejection for being who they are. I concurred with that, and it's a point I shared in common with them.

I neither advocate nor condemn the infamous "gender binary." I happen to fit neatly into the slot labeled "woman." I also respect individuals who don't fit into the binary, and support them being who they are.

But I deeply resent the attacks on TS from gender revolutionaries who accuse us of perpetuating an oppressive binary by "trying to conform to gender stereotypes." The "flaming queen" guy at the panel discussion used that exact accusation against TS. Hey, buddy---f|_|ck you! I'm just being me and I will not let you co-opt or exploit my condition for your political agenda. I'm a woman, deal with it. And you're a jerk.

Quote from: Hypatia on March 31, 2008, 01:12:18 AM
But I deeply resent the attacks on TS from gender revolutionaries who accuse us of perpetuating an oppressive binary by "trying to conform to gender stereotypes." The "flaming queen" guy at the panel discussion used that exact accusation against TS. Hey, buddy---f|_|ck you! I'm just being me and I will not let you co-opt or exploit my condition for your political agenda. I'm a woman, deal with it. And you're a jerk.

ABSOLUTELY.

FTW is "for the win", BTW... *giggle*

Quote from: Hypatia on March 31, 2008, 01:12:18 AM
But I deeply resent the attacks on TS from gender revolutionaries who accuse us of perpetuating an oppressive binary by "trying to conform to gender stereotypes."

I think I can see where that kind of argument is coming from -- after all, if you make an effort to conform to the binary you are keeping it up. However, it misses at least a couple of relevant points.

First, this argument assumes that gender is ultimately a social construct, and so all you need to break the binary is enough people who stop believing in it. This may be true, if you define gender in a way that downplays the physical aspects so much that they become irrelevant. There are gender activists who can do that, but general acceptance is still at least several decades off.

Second, the argument assumes that transsexuals are unhappy with their gender. Yes, quite a few are unhappy with the expectations and roles associated to the gender assigned to them at birth, but this is secondary. The real issue is an unhappiness with physical sex, and for many changing gender roles is ultimately a way to fit in society after fixing the physical issues. In fact, the argument can easily be turned upside down: if the gender stereotypes didn't exist it would be possible to have HRT and SRS without any sort of social transition, and that would be very nice indeed. Right now it isn't possible, though, and this won't change any time soon, regardless of what a few transsexuals do in their attempt to fit in (see point one).

In a sense it's a matter of transgender vs. transsex: someone who has issues with gender roles does not automatically understand someone who has issues with their physical sex. Or vice versa, although the way gender and sex are coupled makes it more likely.

  Nfr

Quote from: Hypatia on March 31, 2008, 01:12:18 AM
But I deeply resent the attacks on TS from gender revolutionaries who accuse us of perpetuating an oppressive binary by "trying to conform to gender stereotypes." The "flaming queen" guy at the panel discussion used that exact accusation against TS. Hey, buddy---f|_|ck you! I'm just being me and I will not let you co-opt or exploit my condition for your political agenda. I'm a woman, deal with it. And you're a jerk.

Partly this has to do with the non-binary people who do transition. If TS and TG are completely separate then where does that put them? Do we need separate legal/medical routes for transitioning people depending on whether they believe in the binary or not?

I worry that with a hegemonic term like "transgender" that erases the distinctiveness of TS, we will be the ones whose issues are "left behind" because ours are the most difficult (and expensive).

No more than the phrase "women of color" takes away from the experience of African-American women in America, nor does it erase the distinctiveness of the Hispanic women in America.  Its just saying that there are common parts of the experience of both that they can make common cause.  You can be European which doesn't take away from being Dutch or Greek - not all of which have the distinctiveness of being from either Amsterdam or Athens (both of which very different experiences in many ways.)

As for the binary sexandgender deal, yeesh, part of what I love about not being in academia is not having to talk like this.  Gender is in several key ways different from sex, which is a strictly observable deal.  In the sense that you 'sex' young chicks, you do not 'gender' them.  Gender has to do with a range of traits - not necessarily exclusive to one or the other - where sex has to do with one aspect only, reproductive organs - a hole or a pole deal.  "Sex" was, and is, a perfectly valid distinction for describing a given attribute, where "gender" was needed to elaborate on things, most of a a behavioral and psychological and cultural nature that were differences, not distinctions.   (In the sense where you KNOW the split based on a distinction, but could only GUESS on the split based on differences alone.)

To the degree that moving from one to the other tends to reinforce the notion that there are two - the matter of the moving from one to the other proves that the wall between the two is not nearly as solid as once thought - it's not an absolute.  Proving that the two are not absolute, is the first step to proving (or defining if you will, most of this is construct and not reality) that more than two are possible.   


PS, its my understanding, poor though it is at such things, that "FTW" means "For the Win" in gammerspeak.

Quote from: Pica Pica on March 30, 2008, 09:26:19 PM
but the thread was a story about who can stand up and clearly and understandably talk about transsexual's to a group of people new to the ideas, and I agree that a transsexual is the best person to talk for the transsexuals - but if they were to stand up and go 'It just is and I have my reasons' people would probably leave knowing less, being less interested in knowing and much less accepting of transsexuals compared to when they went in.

Obviously the best person to speak for each group is someone who is of that group, but it isn't always possible to have representatives from all groups at every event. Whenever I speak publicly about trans issues, I always state that I'm speaking for myself only, not as a representative of the entire community. At the same time I do my absolute best to learn and be informed about the concerns and needs of each group so that I can help educate people about us.

The bottom line for me is the right for every person to safely express and live in their preferred gender without discrimination. For people who fit in the binary to be accepted as such, and also acceptance for those who live outside the binary.

Zythyra

Quote from: taru on March 31, 2008, 06:50:52 AMPartly this has to do with the non-binary people who do transition.

Not sure I follow your thought here. What are they transitioning to?

Posted on: March 31, 2008, 01:55:29 PM

---

Quote from: Seshatneferw on March 31, 2008, 06:20:32 AMSecond, the argument assumes that transsexuals are unhappy with their gender. Yes, quite a few are unhappy with the expectations and roles associated to the gender assigned to them at birth, but this is secondary. The real issue is an unhappiness with physical sex, and for many changing gender roles is ultimately a way to fit in society after fixing the physical issues.

That isn't quite right. I'm not sure how you decided to rank these.

For me, it concerns both sex and gender, neither one secondary to the other. I was never able to function properly in male gender; every atom in my being was crying out for female socialization. The gender of woman is very important to me, however much others may belittle it. The conflict does concern the "expectations and roles associated with" genders, but it's more: A need to fit in where I know I belong, to come home from exile. Like the reed in Rumi's poem:

Listen to the reed as it tells its tale;
it complains of separation.
Since they cut me from the reed-bed,
men and women have been crying over my lament.
I wish for someone with a bosom torn apart by separation,
so that I can tell them the meaning of the pain of longing.
Everyone who stays far away from his own origin
seeks to get back to the day he was together with it.

Posted on: March 31, 2008, 02:18:33 PM

---

Quote from: Zythyra on March 31, 2008, 09:11:31 AM
The bottom line for me is the right for every person to safely express and live in their preferred gender without discrimination. For people who fit in the binary to be accepted as such, and also acceptance for those who live outside the binary.

Thank you! Shake on that.

Quote from: Rebis on March 30, 2008, 08:51:13 PM

Quote from: redfish the postmodern on March 30, 2008, 08:45:28 PM
ftw means for the win

oh.  I'm a old person.  Me no understand yer internets lingo.

That was l33t 5p4k

I agree with the title to this thread btw. (By The Way)

Quote from: Hypatia on March 31, 2008, 03:20:59 PM

Quote from: taru on March 31, 2008, 06:50:52 AMPartly this has to do with the non-binary people who do transition.

Not sure I follow your thought here. What are they transitioning to?

That is the issue with us.   Some of us know what we want to look like, others don't know and won't until they achieve it.   It's why a lot of us kind of sit it out.  It's why I'm sitting it out.


  My personal vision is female on the bottom, male up top, and with a female head.  different hair cuts every year.  women's voice.  short.

when you're done laughing, feel free to join me in crying.

          

I wish you the best in realizing your dreams, dear (and discovering what they are). Sounds like an open-ended journey of discovery.

like being a pioneer.

Rebis the Sex Chimera

it's why I can't make a transitional move.  My self image changes constantly.


Now we need to find someone to explain me at a conference.     

Quote from: Rebis on March 31, 2008, 08:59:02 PM
Now we need to find someone to explain me at a conference.     

We could have a special conference devoted to explaining Reeb  Workshops, panels, experts, booths selling accessories, a special dinner with guest speaker  Sounds fun, I'll be there if you promise to have it in a different climate 

Z

I think you answered that best yourself.

'I'm not short and I'm not tall, I often wonder what I'm trying to accomplish.'

Quote from: Pica Pica on March 31, 2008, 09:08:36 PM
I think you answered that best yourself.

'I'm not short and I'm not tall, I often wonder what I'm trying to accomplish.'

who said that?

Quote from: Hypatia on March 31, 2008, 03:20:59 PM
For me, it concerns both sex and gender, neither one secondary to the other. I was never able to function properly in male gender; every atom in my being was crying out for female socialization.

All right; let me re-phrase it. The thing that -- in my opinion -- defines a transsexual in relation to several other transgendered variants is unhappiness about one's physical sex. The way I read it, that's also really at the core of the debacle you described. Many transsexuals also have an unhappiness with social gender, and it is quite possible to argue that a transsexual by definition has problems with both (my relative lack of this social dysphoria is why I usually don't dare consider myself TS), but in this context it doesn't add anything. The point is that having one does not by itself create an understanding of the other, and this is at the core of why some genderqueers have problems with transsexuality.

  Nfr

Good explanation, Seshatneferw, that works for me. When you put it that way, I agree.

you said it. doughnut.