Quote from: jkredman on October 22, 2018, 11:22:30 PM
I feel totally ignored
Kate

I read both articles, Kate, thank you for posting them. 

My genderfluid (aka also transgender) SO sent me this article, and I have to admit I feel that this article hit the nail on the head.  The current POTUS is doing classic bullying and attention-seeking behavior.   

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alexandra-billings-donald-trump-transgender_us_5bcde493e4b0a8f17eeee021

Sydney_NYC, I think he's "protecting the country from people not afraid to be true to themselves." 

I'm waiting for him to go after us Goths next.  "I'm protecting the country from people who wear black clothes, leather and capes!"  Or he could also be thinking we're vampires too.   

Ryuichi

Trans erasure is a hate crime. Let's all wait and see where it goes. If the worst happens, sue the government. We are a form of freedom of speach and expression. Use that! Nonetheless, VOTE!

Excuse me for throwing in my two cents worth from Scotland, UK. I don't know enough about American politics to be specific on what the Trump administration is up to *this week* but I can make an informed comment on the general political landscape...

It seems to me this anti-LGBTi Rights is part of a massive overall swing to the right in the USA and right across Europe. If you look at what's happening at street level, due to Trump over your side & Brexit over here, the right-wing think they have a green light to let out their fascist, racist, sectarian & in many cases outright Nazi viewpoints in the public arena.

No longer do neo-Nazis wear skinheads, doc martin bovver boots and braces etc... They are hiding in plain sight amongst all of us - sometimes in smart suits, sometimes in designer sports labels but always blended in - until they open their mouths.

The left & centrist Neo-Liberals have lost touch with the ordinary workers & citizens everywhere. The right-wing haven't won anything, they've filled the gap once occupied by moderate socialism and common-sense politics. When things go wrong, the right-wing will blame everyone who isn't on-board with their agenda. Project Fear worked for Hitler and it's working for Trump, the UK Tories & a thousand facist movements around the world. The 99% need to fully waken up to what's happening around them.

Reading this today left me feeling a little sick and totally stunned. I received an email from a friend who was so angry she could barely contain herself in the short email to me. I have been looking around the internet this evening trying to gauge how people are feeling about this and I have come away feeling very uneasy. I am in Australia so I have no personal/political feeling either way about which party or who is running the country, I will confess I don't have a particularly high opinion of Mr Trump but that is for personal reasons but I do care what happens to my friends. I can't do much other than say "I am with you all" and I hope common sense and calm prevail.

Liz

I am somewhat disappointed as somewhat of an observer to this discussion as well Liz. As non US citizen I do not have any voting rights. However living here means that I am affected by this and similar legislation and policy.


What I see as very disturbing is that what we see here is only a small reflection of what is going on in the US society as a whole. It does not matter the topic, the two sides are so entrenched in their own views that it often ends in aggression and even personal attacks.

Having grown up in a country with more than 2 parties there was always the need for a reasonable discussion and finding compromises to pass legislation and it has reflected on society. In the US it is mostly black and white.

People align with the party they feel provides the most overlap with their own beliefs and values. I do not know a single person who can say they back their party 100%. There will always be disagreement with certain positions or legislative actions.

I have friends across the entire religious and political spectrum. I don't have to agree with all their beliefs but they are still my friends. We don't shove our beliefs into each other's faces, we do still discuss politics on occasion and exchange our views.

I don't like the personal attacks I am seeing. We all share a common trait: we are trans. We should be sticking together and be strong as one to defend our rights.

I am very scared how much of the progress the trans community has made is being rolled back at the moment, sometimes defying the majority of science. Yes, I am scared for my future. I still choose to take the high road. There is a lot we can do in the realm of a civil discourse and action. Attacking each other just divides us even more.

Hugs,

Sarah

Quote from: LizK on October 23, 2018, 05:48:01 AM
Reading this today left me feeling a little sick and totally stunned. I received an email from a friend who was so angry she could barely contain herself in the short email to me. I have been looking around the internet this evening trying to gauge how people are feeling about this and I have come away feeling very uneasy. I am in Australia so I have no personal/political feeling either way about which party or who is running the country, I will confess I don't have a particularly high opinion of Mr Trump but that is for personal reasons but I do care what happens to my friends. I can't do much other than say "I am with you all" and I hope common sense and calm prevail.

Liz

Quote from: Johnni Gyrl on October 23, 2018, 05:10:56 AM
Excuse me for throwing in my two cents worth from Scotland, UK. I don't know enough about American politics to be specific on what the Trump administration is up to *this week* but I can make an informed comment on the general political landscape...

It seems to me this anti-LGBTi Rights is part of a massive overall swing to the right in the USA and right across Europe. If you look at what's happening at street level, due to Trump over your side & Brexit over here, the right-wing think they have a green light to let out their fascist, racist, sectarian & in many cases outright Nazi viewpoints in the public arena.

No longer do neo-Nazis wear skinheads, doc martin bovver boots and braces etc... They are hiding in plain sight amongst all of us - sometimes in smart suits, sometimes in designer sports labels but always blended in - until they open their mouths.

The left & centrist Neo-Liberals have lost touch with the ordinary workers & citizens everywhere. The right-wing haven't won anything, they've filled the gap once occupied by moderate socialism and common-sense politics. When things go wrong, the right-wing will blame everyone who isn't on-board with their agenda. Project Fear worked for Hitler and it's working for Trump, the UK Tories & a thousand facist movements around the world. The 99% need to fully waken up to what's happening around them.

FYI, I'm pro-Brexit, pro-Capitalism, pro Freemarket Economics and do NOT identify as a neo-nazi.

The EU is a protectionist club for the wealthy old-guard nations, and if Brexit allows the UK to trade freely and openly with the World and not just a single bloc, then I fully support it, including allowing movement of people - this is real liberalism and gives opportunity to all. The EU has had many benefits for the UK, but in a global world and economy,  it's time is done.

I'm am NOT a fan of Trump, but I have the wits to understand that not every politician on one side of a house has it in for me and not every one on the other side is my biggest fan. I guarantee that personal attacks on others diminish us though.

I might think that the members of this site would understand that life is not black & white, but maybe not [emoji853]



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Quote from: SadieBlake on October 22, 2018, 11:49:21 PM
I'd rather say the electoral college was chosen as a means to protect the land owners who founded the nation from what they perceived as the mob (I would say population). Their fears came in no small part in response to the French revolution.

The so called wise founders were quite happy with state rules that only allowed voting by white land owners and until the 1830s the president was voted into office by a mere 2-4% of the population. The Senate was chosen by state legislators until 1913 and it wasn't until the 1940s that women were voting in equal numbers to men.

Our constitution makes 3rd parties effectively meaningless, limited to left wing fringe in the case of the green party and manipulation by the likes of Ross Perot and the Koch brothers on the right.

Personally I prefer the constitutional democracies of Europe to the mess that we have.

As for tyranny, the agriculture states form a 30% voting block in the Senate, effectively giving control of an entire legislative body to a group elected by a tiny fraction of the US population and firmly in the pockets of big money / agribusiness. We have agricultural subsidies for a reason and Trump most recently has completely screwed the states that put him in office with trade tarrifs and is is buying back their good will with still more agriculture subsidies.

I think we have pretty much the same political understanding and ideology!  I could not have said it better!  The holier than thou founding fathers wer nothing than a bunch of self serving rich people who were happy to maintain the status quo (including having slaves)!

Quote from: Sydney_NYC on October 23, 2018, 12:53:37 AM

Trump says transgender policy seeks to 'protect the country', (here is a video of him saying this). The question is from what? Us???

That seems to be, because we sneak into the bathrooms of the opposite to our birth certificate gender, and do there all kind of filthy things (like using even toilet paper or something dirty like this)

Quote from: sarah1972 on October 23, 2018, 06:52:57 AM
s.

Having grown up in a country with more than 2 parties there was always the need for a reasonable discussion and finding compromises to pass legislation and it has reflected on society. In the US it is mostly black and white.


Hugs,

Sarah

Sarah, I too grew up in a country with several political parties, and that reflects the political culture i like to see.  But in addition to many of you here, I had a mother who was singled out because of her ethnicity (she was a practicing catholic) and thrown into a concentration camp, and almost was murdered there!
I see very clear similarities going on in this country, of which I am a citizen now, and I do not want to end up like my mother, simply because I am different to the majority of the population!  OK, I am pretty old, but I am also fighting for the young people, several of them are here in our forum, that they can live a life of fulfillment, and not of fear to be rounded up one day and thrown into a camp like my mother!

I might be a little more sensitized than many, but I wish people in Germany would have woken up earlier when Hitler was doing his demagogic actions!  I see the same here in this country, and hope that the people are waking up!

Hey @SkyVoices !
In all this discussions about political ->-bleeped-<- we almost missed you Though it brought you to signing in, there is a lot of more positive topics and subforums
Why don't you start from Introductions subforum to let people know a little more about you than your political views?

If according to the definition that health and human services are trying to put though

The department argued in its memo that key government agencies needed to adopt an explicit and uniform definition of gender as determined "on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable."

Can someone explain how this would affect those who are intersexed? How are they going to define those who are BOTH male and female? How is the AMA going to handle it?

We both grew up in Germany and we both share the same concern on what is currently going on and about the future. This makes it even more important to stick together and take action, speak up for our rights. Fighting between each other and attacking others is not helping our cause. We need every single one to be visible, out and defend our rights, no matter if they are leaning Democrat or Republican.

Quote from: Dietlind on October 23, 2018, 08:06:06 AM

Quote from: sarah1972 on October 23, 2018, 06:52:57 AM
s.

Having grown up in a country with more than 2 parties there was always the need for a reasonable discussion and finding compromises to pass legislation and it has reflected on society. In the US it is mostly black and white.


Hugs,

Sarah

Sarah, I too grew up in a country with several political parties, and that reflects the political culture i like to see.  But in addition to many of you here, I had a mother who was singled out because of her ethnicity (she was a practicing catholic) and thrown into a concentration camp, and almost was murdered there!
I see very clear similarities going on in this country, of which I am a citizen now, and I do not want to end up like my mother, simply because I am different to the majority of the population!  OK, I am pretty old, but I am also fighting for the young people, several of them are here in our forum, that they can live a life of fulfillment, and not of fear to be rounded up one day and thrown into a camp like my mother!

I might be a little more sensitized than many, but I wish people in Germany would have woken up earlier when Hitler was doing his demagogic actions!  I see the same here in this country, and hope that the people are waking up!

Quote from: Dena on October 23, 2018, 12:11:21 AM
There is nothing wrong with the wealth having a say as it's there money the people without money will be spending. The worst possible outcome is when one spends money they didn't earn. The best outcome is when a person spends money they earned as they value the money and don't waste it.

Dena, those assertions really come down  to value judgements (in that I can construct microeconomic arguments for them or diametrically opposed). Certainly you're right in line with the Puritan line of the early US leadership.

The pros and cons also date back to the Federalist papers tho again, I think those all must be read from a fundamental and self serving belief that the common.folk, (slaves, working class and of course women) must not be allowed to vote.

As for the validity of applying that philosophy to managing the economy, Alan Greenspan ought to serve as adequate proof that ultimately it didn't work.

I've had the good fortune to listen to Paul Samuelson and Robert Solow discussing the fiscal policy of the Regan administration and I have an acquaintance who's a decidedly conservative econ proof at a U in upstate NY and I'm perfectly happy to conclude he's a crackpot.

QuoteThere is nothing wrong with the wealth having a say as it's there money the people without money will be spending. The worst possible outcome is when one spends money they didn't earn. The best outcome is when a person spends money they earned as they value the money and don't waste it.

So, the wealthy should have more of a vote than others?  Very  often it's the wealthy that cause the problems and they already have more than enough opportunity to express their views.  As for those who spend money they didn't "earn", what about those who for some reason are unable to earn a living?  Are they to be left destitute?  How do you justify Trump's tax cuts that benefit the wealthy, while cutting millions of from health care?  What about the working poor?  There's a large percentage of the population that despite working full time and then some, are denied a living income.  Why is it so wrong to help them?  Of course, we can't escape the fact that many of them are poor because of the wealthy denying them a decent income.

Quote from: Dietlind on October 22, 2018, 11:39:31 PM
i read your links and they seem to confirm what we are discussing here, that our rights as a minority group of the society are absolutely on the chopping block

Yes our existence is on the chopping block.

What I was asking is that we rally together and get beyond the infighting I've been reading in this thread.


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Quote from: gracefulhat on October 22, 2018, 08:42:59 PM
So... we may have difficulties if either party wins, but we need to look @ the lesser of 2 evils. If Dems get elected we may be screwed, but we may enjoy the screwing a little at least. If Red continues to reign screwing would not be the right word, rather <not allowed>. Its the difference between a bruised knee and an amputaed one.



(Edit but Moderator)

It doesn't have to be that way, but emotions, beliefs and tribal non-sense trump logic and reason. It's always been that way no matter how far we've come socially. One possible answer is sortition.


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My first inclination in instances such as this is to take a deep breath, don't panic and understand the real threats and then address them through resistance, protest, political action etc. There is no doubt that a narrow segment of our political spectrum is using as a fodder for a continued cultural war and then hope to benefit from the political turmoil. This then translates into increased danger for many of us and in some ways a spotlight of bigotry results as those who would hate us see some "official" endorsement to do so. This allows said politicians to distract the nation from efforts to further fill their pockets.

As has been stated here though, we do have at least a partially functioning democracy remaining. State governments and state laws act as a buffer. (there are 13 states that specifically protect gender identity) There is a court system that would no doubt challenge any executive orders and if they went the legislation route, it would take a long time to move through the houses of Congress and then the laws still face legal challenges. The executive order route just attempts to do things that bypass legislation and as we have seen from the transgender military ban attempts those meet with a lot of contempt within the bureaucracy that has to implement it.

Get out and vote, organize politically, be visible and productive members of society, face danger if you must. Have a plan and work it.

I'm one that has not changed her federal ID for no really good reason, other than I was waiting for post-divorce and that is dragging itself out. I accept that it may have been the wrong choice. It's a fact that a narrow segment of our society would love to hate us in this way and are encouraging their politicians on these hate efforts. They are narrow though. and the chances that the rest of society is going to turn back on us because of it, while not impossible are unlikely.

Finally, it occurred to me that this would be a good reason to be granted asylum in another country like Canada, UK, Scandinavian countries etc. if things ever do become much more painful. What better reason than your government refusing to recognize you exist and protect your rights?

I think these threads have proven what has, to me, become obvious over the past 2 years.
We are way past the point of being able to persuade the other side with ideas and arguments.  We are shouting at each other over the fence.  It's background noise at this point.  The only thing that matters now is turnout. For me personally, I'm voting Blue and volunteering Blue.

Actually Jane I have been persuaded. Although I have never voted democrat before I will be this election, with the exception of one self admitted communist district rep. Sorry I don't care what happens I won't do communism. But if you dem's start your gun grabbing crap I will go back to voting red in 2024.

Quote from: Danni98 on October 23, 2018, 12:16:27 PM
Actually Jane I have been persuaded. Although I have never voted democrat before I will be this election, with the exception of one self admitted communist district rep. Sorry I don't care what happens I won't do communism. But if you dem's start your gun grabbing crap I will go back to voting red in 2024.

A real communist? (not a democratic socialist or socialist workers party of america?, there is a big difference) We have a democratic socialist that may win a local seat here in Oregon.

I remember when the USA Communist party as it existed was headquartered in my home state of Minnesota way up north in an area famous for union miners. I'm not sure if they still exist up there but there was a little museum last time I looked. Another bit of leftist trivia is that Minnesota was one of possibly the only states that elected socialists to the Governor's post back in the 30s and 40s

You have to vote your conscious for sure, to me, that means the candidates that most represent equality and human rights and have at least some record or history to match it, then I go to the environment next because after all mars colonization is going to be few and a long way off. Economics and foreign policy are distant after that. To me, it is plain which groups protect and even celebrate their LGTBQ+ constituents

Separate from voting though, there is a lot that can be done via resistance and organization, both for ourselves and the ones that come after us.