Hi! I want to remain anonymous so I won't give my name; but after a bit of research I think I may be intersex and I
thought this might be a good place to post my experiences and possibly connect with some other intersex people to
hear their opinions and maybe get some direction as to what I should do going forward from a medical standpoint.
To start I will say that I am a conservative Christian and I know my views and beliefs about such issues as the
LGBTQ community probably won't be popular on here; but I will say that due to my own experiences with my body
I'm not here to judge or to start a fight and I can understand a lot of the feelings of people in the LGBTQ community.
I'm not out to cause a fight and if there is a disagreement about something I'm in no way trying to step on anyone's
toes.  I think my story will help other people in similar situations to have some hope that things can still turn out well
and that's part of the reason I decided to join this board as well as hearing what other people think of my story and
situation!

So anyway I'm the firstborn son in my family and I was born in the late 80's.  My Mom was on quite a few medications
to help her with the pregnancy as she lost eight children before me to miscarriages.  She actually told me at one point
that the doctors were surprised when I was born male because whatever she was taking apparently caused most
children to be born female.  I never inquired further as I have always been cautious not to let anyone find out about
the issues I experienced growing up because I was always embarrassed talking about issues of different genders and I
didn't want my parents to question me on the subject.  I grew up for the most part as any boy would and I did a lot of
playing outside and helping on our families farm; but when nobody was around I also enjoyed playing with my sisters
toys and clothes.  I always felt a little off and it sort of felt to me like I was in-between genders even though I
tried my hardest to quell the more feminine side of myself.  I think it was around age 12 that I started going through
puberty and while most of my friends starting being into girls I never really did until I was in my 20's.  It wasn't that I
liked guys; I just didn't have any attraction at all either way.  One thing that did change though is that I started to
occasionally feel more feminine and it became harder for me to hide that fact.  I think I still did well enough though, as
none of my close friends ever thought anything of me as far as I know, though I do think some people suspected I was
gay later in my teen years just because I wasn't dating like most of my peers. 

Going back to puberty I remember around age 12 was the first time I secretly "borrowed" some of my sisters clothing
while everyone was out of the house and I thoroughly enjoyed the way it made me look and feel.  Now as far as my
physical development went, I was always very small and thin and easily could wear the same clothing as my younger
sister all the way through my teen years.  Even now without any dieting or working out of any kind, and being in my
early 30's I still only weigh around 180lbs compared to my brother and my Dad who are both well over the 220-230lbs
mark and I was only 150 in college completely pigging out!  That was all I could gain!  Wish it was still like that haha!
While I wouldn't necessarily say that I'm weak, I never really was able to gain any muscle like the other guys in my
family and that holds true even now.  I wear a size 9 shoe and still have a very small frame compared to most guys. 
My hips though are masculine, and I don't really have curves like a woman would.  I don't have an adams apple, and
my face I would say is pretty androgynous.  I have a significant amount of sensitivity in my breast area and am a solid
A cup (sometimes B even fits better).  I do have a significant amount of body hair (unfortunately) and can easily grow
a full beard (I'm ok with that!); so I know at least my hormones probably aren't extremely out of balance.  I do have
some issues "down there" as I have verified that I suffer from varicocele veins and excess scrotal skin. (a lot of excess
and it's very annoying)  In my research I found that varicocele veins are common in people who suffer from PMDS
(Persistent Mullerian Duct Syndrome) and while I don't want to assume my own diagnoses I think it's very possible
that it's something I may have, but I'll get to that. 

I went through my teen years never having a girlfriend mostly because I wasn't particularly interested in any of the
girls I knew who "guy hopped" and had a different boyfriend every week, and also because I myself just wasn't super
interested in the thought of it even though I am definitely heterosexual.  Even when I'm in full "I wish I had been born
a girl" mode I still like girls.  From age 12 to my mid 20's a couple times a week I would borrow clothes from my sister
(unknown to her) to try to satisfy my need to feel feminine and indulge in that sort of thing and that was enough for
me.  I didn't have a serious relationship with a girl until I was in my late 20's and we were together for around 10
months.  In that time we actually got engaged but it ended up falling apart due to issues with her parents.  (They were
crazy and didn't want her to leave and wanted me to move in with them and build a house on their property when we
got married.  They ended up causing the poor girl so much stress that she had a nervous breakdown that totally
changed her personality and the relationship quickly fell apart afterwards.  Her mom was actually clinically diagnosed
as a narcissist which is something that I didn't even know was a thing.  Anyway thankfully I never opened up about
this issue to her because my life would have been awful if she spread it around after the relationship failed)  I was
totally crushed afterwards and completely gave up on life.  I even had thoughts of suicide for a while but I didn't want
to let myself be defeated and so I totally threw myself into my other hobbies to try to keep my mind off of things.
(This was a good thing because I'm now fairly well known around the world in that field of study!)  My sister had
gotten married and moved out months prior and I had gone for months without crossdressing (even though I really
wanted to) and after things fell apart I just sort of stopped caring for a while and decided to order some clothes of my
own so I would have an outlet.  I ended up with quite a collection that I kept hidden in a drawer and I always made
sure to order from places that I knew would ship in blank white bags from brands like Maidenform for lingerie and
Hanes for clothing as it all comes in Hanes bags and could easily be explained away as socks or work shirts which I
also ordered in the same orders to keep from being discovered.  I actually became quite proficient at being discreet
about it haha! 

So a few depressing years went by and I met a girl who completely blew me away.  I had completely given up on ever
finding anybody (particularly a bummer for me as I said I'm a conservative Christian and have remained a virgin for all
this time) and I happened to meet her at church and asked her out.  Things went along VERY well although I became
more distraught about my issue of secretly being feminine and enjoying crossdressing.  I knew though that this
relationship was special and I would eventually have to come clean to her about it.  Finally we were spending a day
together and while we were alone I told her everything.  I was so nervous!  I was so afraid she would leave me when
she found out!  But I loved her so much that I just couldn't keep anything from her.  All she said at the end of it was
that she loved me and we would work through it together.  I seriously cried my eyes out when I found out she was still
willing to be with me!  We were engaged only a few weeks later and will be getting married soon!   After that all had
transpired we started talking about girly stuff more often and now months later we even go shopping together and
share clothing with each other! (She hates it, but I fit into her jeans and shirts fairly well haha!) Brands that used to be
off limits because of shipping packaging now no longer are because we go together so nobody suspects a thing!  I
have so many pretty clothes of my own now and she makes me so happy!  She's even helped me try makeup and
helped me with making my wig look as natural as possible.  I would never try to pass outside of the house, but I sure
bet I could!  We have an absolute blast together whether it's my girl side or guy side.  

So after I told her everything she started watching me closer and paying attention to my moods and when I would
complain of stomach cramps and things like that on a suspicion that maybe something wasn't quite right with me
physically.  I always have had random cramps since puberty, but I never wanted to document anything because
I was ashamed of myself and thought that I'd never have a real loving relationship unless I "got over" my feminine
feelings and was all guy side all the time.  I'm glad I was wrong!  I consider myself incredibly blessed to have met her
and I definitely don't deserve her!  What we discovered together is that what I always tried to pass off to myself as
just random stomach cramps (though I always suspected they maybe weren't and thought I should probably be
documenting them) actually follow a pretty spot on timeline to a menstrual cycle.  I've been documenting my moods
and feelings using the Maya app on Android and have documented four or five months now.  My worst cramping always
hits within two or so days of the app saying it should and ends about when it should as well.  My moods and breast
tenderness follow the expected patterns as well.  Now I will say I don't get any blood in my stool or urine as far as I
can tell; but I always know when it's hitting as I get what can only be described as the worst butt cramps ever and
immediately have to rush to a bathroom where I end up cramped up in bad pain for quite a while and then it's gone as
fast as it hit.  I also tend to get a lot of pain in my testes during this time and during what would be the ovulation
phase if I was fully female.  I also have probably as much feeling in the flat skin underneath my testicles as in my
penis.  Sometimes more!

Now as much as my fiance and I have documented about my condition, and with my Mom having been on what I can
probably assume to be heavy doses of medication with lots of hormones to help her to be able to carry me, and all the
issues I experienced growing up not feeling quite right, I feel like this is probably not just in my head and there really
is something up with my body.  What I want to find out now is the opinions of some of the folks on this board, what
my condition could be, and what sort of doctor I should see about it.  I can live with being told I'm transgendered and
my body is that of a normal male if that's what ends up being the case; but I'm afraid that if there is something out of
the ordinary we might have issues with her conceiving down the line or I might have to deal with menopause when I'm
older and issues like that.  I know a lot of information on the intersex condition and all of it's different forms is kind of
a taboo in the medical field due to politics and whatnot; and I'm afraid I might end up being incorrectly labeled and
ignored when I may actually have physical problems that I need advice on dealing with.  So what do you folks think? 
Does this seem legitimate to you?  How would I go about finding medical help?  What sort of doctor would I look to for
answers without being judged and mislabeled?  I'm not at all interested in the politics of being considered transgender
and I'm not interested in transitioning.  It does sound nice sometimes, but I wouldn't want to for my fiance's sake and
I also know that just as I love my female side and only want to be female for days on end I also experience the same
feelings about being male so it wouldn't really make me happier overall if I did transition.  I'm only interested in the
science of it and I want to understand what exactly is going on in my body; and I want to know what I'm going to have
to deal with physically through my life whether it were to mean I am sterile, or will have to deal with menopause
later in life, or maybe won't experience any issues at all beyond what I already do.

Welcome to Susan's Place. It is possible that you are intersex though the only way to tell for sure is an examination by somebody knowledgable in the area. Part of the problem is if you don't know what you were exposed to, it may be difficult to be sure that was the cause. If I were to take a guess, I would say it's likely you were exposed to DES as that was the most common medication used to prevent miscarriages.

My body has many of the features you describe however it's not likely my mother was exposed to DES as I was the first child and I was conceived shortly after my parents were married. It is possible that the feminization happened as the result of natural causes or because of genetics. Sometimes you may never know so most of the time it's best just to get on with your life and not worry about how you got where you are.

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@Hiddenside 
Dear HiddenSide:
    I am most pleased that you had decided to join the Susan's Place.

    I see that our lovely member  @Dena  has already welcomed you to Susan's Place.  Please allow me to also welcome you here.
Thank you for writing your first interesting and detailed posting.... other members will be along to offer their thoughts and comments in response to your specific questions and concerns..

    This is the right place for you to be to find out what others may have to say that may have been in your circumstances and with your questions and concerns.
    There are a lot of members here that will be able to identify with your situation as you continue to feel free to share it.

    I want to warmly WELCOME you to Susan's Place. 
You will find this a safe and friendly place to share with others and to read about others similar trials, tribulations, and successes.

    As you are certainly aware you can share with others and involve yourself with some give and take with other like-minded members.  When frustrated or if you have successes you can share it here if you wish and receive support from others and offer support to others. ....
     ***It's a very good chance that you might find that you will make some new friends here. 

    Please come in and continue to be involved at your own pace.
   
    There is information and important LINKS that  Dena  included in her welcome message to you.   You will find information about the site that will help you navigate around and best utilize the features here.   
Please look closely at the LINKS in RED, answers are there to many questions that new members ask.

Again, Welcome to Susan's Place.
Danielle

@Hiddenside
Oh, and another thing HiddenSide:
Please find your way to the  Introductions Forum and write a brief introduction post and summary about yourself so that more members here on the Susan's Place forums will be aware of your arrival and therefore you may obtain more responses and information that you might be looking for and you will be able to share with others.

Enjoy your time here on the Forums, I trust that you will find this an enjoyable and informative experience.
Best wishes to you.... and again, Welcome to Susan's Place
Danielle

Quote from: Dena on November 01, 2018, 01:56:01 AM
Welcome to Susan's Place. It is possible that you are intersex though the only way to tell for sure is an examination by somebody knowledgable in the area. Part of the problem is if you don't know what you were exposed to, it may be difficult to be sure that was the cause. If I were to take a guess, I would say it's likely you were exposed to DES as that was the most common medication used to prevent miscarriages.

My body has many of the features you describe however it's not likely my mother was exposed to DES as I was the first child and I was conceived shortly after my parents were married. It is possible that the feminization happened as the result of natural causes or because of genetics. Sometimes you may never know so most of the time it's best just to get on with your life and not worry about how you got where you are.

Things that you should read

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Hi!  Thanks for the reply!  Yes, I agree.  That's sort of why I joined here.  I'm not sure what sort of specialist I should see to find out and I'm hoping that I can get some direction in that area here.  Yes, I've read about DES sons and daughters online and have definitely considered that could be possible as well.  I'm not sure though as I was born in 88 and they should have stopped using it by then.  I'm also curious if the hospital would have information on what my Mom was on at the time on file.  I will probably end up just asking her and once I confirm that this is a physical issue with my body with proper evidence to back up my claim I will probably explain it to my parents the way I did with my fiance.  But yes it very well could just be a random issue due to genetics as well.  To be honest I myself don't really care either way.  I've never let it be an issue for me and I've always dealt with it myself.  My fiance is concerned though and wants to know what we should expect to deal with in life medically and that's mainly why I joined and posted.

If you were born in 1988 in North America, Western Europe or Australasia, it wouldn't have been DES. DES in pregnancy had long been discontinued by that stage (but possibly still in use in the USSR and some Third World countries).

I have a copy of the 1981 British National Formulary, and the four drugs recommended for treating "habitual abortion" at that time were three progestins: allylestrenol, hydroxyprogesterone hexanoate (caproate), and medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA, aka Provera); and progesterone itself. I don't think MPA is used in pregnancy any more, but the others are, so the drugs you were exposed to are probably somewhere in that list.

Progesterone is present in high amounts naturally in pregnant women so probably doesn't cause feminization of the fetus, but the 3 progestins are feminizing hormones, and I'm pretty sure any male babies exposed to them are going to come out not so male at the end of it! The trouble is, these drugs have already been used in literally millions of pregnancies, which makes the whole thing a political minefield. Certainly there's as yet been no official acknowledgement that the male children from pregnancies where they're used are being feminized.

The way all these miscarriage preventatives tend to be prescribed means that you get most or all of the exposure during the second and third trimesters, after the critical period for genital development has ended and during the time when most of the differences between male and female brains are thought to arise. So it makes sense that you can often end up with people from pregnancies where these drugs are used who look male but have feminized brains. It seems like we often end up with lifelong lower than normal male testosterone production as well, which leads to you being quite androgynous looking, and developing a body structure with long, slender arms and legs, comparatively lightweight, gracile bones, and not much upper body muscle.

Here is the transcript of an interview with Dr June Reinisch, who has devoted her career to studying the psychological effects of being prenatally exposed to synthetic hormones. You might find it interesting.

http://www.germlineexposures.org/reinisch-qa.html

Within it, there's also a link to a paper of Dr Reinisch's, published in 1977, which gives more information about the history of these drugs, their association with intersex-related anomalies, and how they cause permanent, measureable changes in personality and behaviour. There's no mention of gender effects, but those wouldn't have been looked for because at the time it was written, the prevailing theory was that gender identity was learned, not inbuilt (whereas we now know the opposite applies).

I can say your life experiences are very common among many who fit under the "transgender" umbrella term. I found many things similar. Slow masculinization, smaller than my brothers pretty significantly so, unable to properly form romantic relationships for many years. Using hobbies and very logical type things to distract from my emotions as much as possible.

In middle school I convinced myself that all boys must have the same trouble keeping their emotions locked away. I did my best to man up and act like the boys did. I always felt so bad about ribbing guys back just so I would fit in. I have come to the realization that romantic relationships were so hard because I did not know how to be like a normal guy in those situations. It was not natural for me to act like them and I didn't have a way to observe them in those types of settings obviously to be able to mimmic them. Girls expect guys to act a certain way in relationships and I just never knew how. I never felt those instinctual drives that way.

So no matter the cause, you do clearly fit under the transgender spectrum. It's possible you have a verifiable intersex condition. While Hugh is right that DES was rare by the 1980s, it is not an impossibility that a doctor prescribed it to your mom. It was not removed from the approved FDA med list until 2000 in the US. The effects of DES depend a lot on the dosage at different times of the pregnancy. If it was given at a strong dose in the first trimester, I had a much higher rate of ambiguous genitalia. By the late 50s it was common to not up the dosage until the second trimester so as to not interfer with the genital development. However the second trimester is when most of the brain is developing and most of the sexually dimorphic brain areas are set in their neural pattern at that time. Thus a very high percentage of transgender male children. 30% of the Verified DES sons report moderate to severe gender disphoria. There are also many genes that if damaged or mutated have differing effects.

If you suspect ovatestes, then a testicular sonogram and a sperm count test could tell you. If DES or a version of alpha5-reductase deficiency or AIS were to blame you would not expect Mullerian remnants but would expect external genital anomalies.

Doctors you could see to try to find more endocrinologist, urologist, geneticist, or a reproductive specialist.

I would also suggest if your religious background is still causing you distress over who you are, that you look into asking a Rabbi about the true translation of anything Old Testament, and look into original translations of Greek and aremeic for New Testament gosphels. Also consider looking for what message Jesus taught instead of just the gosphels where his students mixed in old Hebrew laws into his message. Jesus thumbed his nose at many an old Hebrew law.

Quote from: HughE on November 01, 2018, 08:28:42 PM
If you were born in 1988 in North America, Western Europe or Australasia, it wouldn't have been DES. DES in pregnancy had long been discontinued by that stage (but possibly still in use in the USSR and some Third World countries).

I have a copy of the 1981 British National Formulary, and the four drugs recommended for treating "habitual abortion" at that time were three progestins: allylestrenol, hydroxyprogesterone hexanoate (caproate), and medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA, aka Provera); and progesterone itself. I don't think MPA is used in pregnancy any more, but the others are, so the drugs you were exposed to are probably somewhere in that list.

Progesterone is present in high amounts naturally in pregnant women so probably doesn't cause feminization of the fetus, but the 3 progestins are feminizing hormones, and I'm pretty sure any male babies exposed to them are going to come out not so male at the end of it! The trouble is, these drugs have already been used in literally millions of pregnancies, which makes the whole thing a political minefield. Certainly there's as yet been no official acknowledgement that the male children from pregnancies where they're used are being feminized.

The way all these miscarriage preventatives tend to be prescribed means that you get most or all of the exposure during the second and third trimesters, after the critical period for genital development has ended and during the time when most of the differences between male and female brains are thought to arise. So it makes sense that you can often end up with people from pregnancies where these drugs are used who look male but have feminized brains. It seems like we often end up with lifelong lower than normal male testosterone production as well, which leads to you being quite androgynous looking, and developing a body structure with long, slender arms and legs, comparatively lightweight, gracile bones, and not much upper body muscle.

Here is the transcript of an interview with Dr June Reinisch, who has devoted her career to studying the psychological effects of being prenatally exposed to synthetic hormones. You might find it interesting.

http://www.germlineexposures.org/reinisch-qa.html

Within it, there's also a link to a paper of Dr Reinisch's, published in 1977, which gives more information about the history of these drugs, their association with intersex-related anomalies, and how they cause permanent, measureable changes in personality and behaviour. There's no mention of gender effects, but those wouldn't have been looked for because at the time it was written, the prevailing theory was that gender identity was learned, not inbuilt (whereas we now know the opposite applies).

Thank you for taking the time to write this post!  It was very helpful, interesting, and informative!  I will read the article when I get the chance for sure!

Quote from: josie76 on November 01, 2018, 09:27:17 PM
I can say your life experiences are very common among many who fit under the "transgender" umbrella term. I found many things similar. Slow masculinization, smaller than my brothers pretty significantly so, unable to properly form romantic relationships for many years. Using hobbies and very logical type things to distract from my emotions as much as possible.

In middle school I convinced myself that all boys must have the same trouble keeping their emotions locked away. I did my best to man up and act like the boys did. I always felt so bad about ribbing guys back just so I would fit in. I have come to the realization that romantic relationships were so hard because I did not know how to be like a normal guy in those situations. It was not natural for me to act like them and I didn't have a way to observe them in those types of settings obviously to be able to mimmic them. Girls expect guys to act a certain way in relationships and I just never knew how. I never felt those instinctual drives that way.

It's crazy how much your story sounds like mine.  I was the same way and got picked on non-stop because my personality was so different from the other guys.  I have always hated the fact that I have an incredibly hard time not crying when something bad or sad happens as well.  Even during movies...    I have always been very emotional.  That fact on it's own caused me a lot of trouble growing up and paired with my small and feminine frame it was a nightmare.  It also didn't help that I was extremely shy and so I barely talked to girls even though I really wanted too.  Not because I wanted a girlfriend, just because I wanted to make friends and talk about the same topics they did.  Of course having to hide the fact that I suffered from gender dysphoria would've made it impossible to be friends with them anyway because it would've been a sure giveaway.  Oh well.  I don't hate the way things turned out at all though.  I never would've met my fiance if things had been different with my life and I've never been happier than I am when I'm with her!  I seriously can't wait to marry her!  Come to think of it I think honestly the way I view our relationship is more like a woman would lol.  Regardless of the nuances though I wouldn't change a thing about her and I and she's told me many times that the same is true for her.

Quote from: josie76 on November 01, 2018, 09:27:17 PM
So no matter the cause, you do clearly fit under the transgender spectrum. It's possible you have a verifiable intersex condition. While Hugh is right that DES was rare by the 1980s, it is not an impossibility that a doctor prescribed it to your mom. It was not removed from the approved FDA med list until 2000 in the US. The effects of DES depend a lot on the dosage at different times of the pregnancy. If it was given at a strong dose in the first trimester, I had a much higher rate of ambiguous genitalia. By the late 50s it was common to not up the dosage until the second trimester so as to not interfer with the genital development. However the second trimester is when most of the brain is developing and most of the sexually dimorphic brain areas are set in their neural pattern at that time. Thus a very high percentage of transgender male children. 30% of the Verified DES sons report moderate to severe gender disphoria. There are also many genes that if damaged or mutated have differing effects.

If you suspect ovatestes, then a testicular sonogram and a sperm count test could tell you. If DES or a version of alpha5-reductase deficiency or AIS were to blame you would not expect Mullerian remnants but would expect external genital anomalies.

Doctors you could see to try to find more endocrinologist, urologist, geneticist, or a reproductive specialist.

This was incredibly helpful and exactly the information I was looking for!  Thank you very much!

Quote from: josie76 on November 01, 2018, 09:27:17 PM
I would also suggest if your religious background is still causing you distress over who you are, that you look into asking a Rabbi about the true translation of anything Old Testament, and look into original translations of Greek and aremeic for New Testament gosphels. Also consider looking for what message Jesus taught instead of just the gosphels where his students mixed in old Hebrew laws into his message. Jesus thumbed his nose at many an old Hebrew law.

I am very well versed in what I believe and I think I more or less know what I need to do to stay on the right path and deal with my condition at the same time.  Over the years I have looked into what the Bible says about these sorts of issues and as far as my understanding goes I'm not living in opposition to the Bible or offending my conscience; so I think I'm good.  Thank you for your input though!  I actually discussed the religious side of the conversation much more in my introduction thread here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,242121.new.html#new  Again, I hugely appreciate your help!  Thank you!

Quote from: Hiddenside on November 02, 2018, 01:12:14 AM
I am very well versed in what I believe and I think I more or less know what I need to do to stay on the right path and deal with my condition at the same time.  Over the years I have looked into what the Bible says about these sorts of issues and as far as my understanding goes I'm not living in opposition to the Bible or offending my conscience; so I think I'm good.  Thank you for your input though!  I actually discussed the religious side of the conversation much more in my introduction thread here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,242121.new.html#new  Again, I hugely appreciate your help!  Thank you!

I'm glad you have found a way to balance your religious background with your being who you are. I like your basic take on religion and Biblical writings. Most Christians are taught to think in absolutes and literal terms and that tends to lead them the opposite way than what Jesus meant for people. I hate it when I hear a preacher string together 3 or 4 lines from completely different chapters and then prove their personal ideology with it. Each line is only understood with the context it is part of. That is so often lost. Sometimes I find it interesting just how different people within a faith teach. For instance, back when I was in second grade, we had the parish priest come in to do religion with each classroom once a week. In second grade, he taught us what a metaphore was. He taught us to listen for the lesson in the stories that Jesus told to the people as he traveled. It wasn't the literal meaning but the intended lesson that was important to glean from the Bible. In the US, many Catholic churches are surprisingly accepting of LGBT people. Even though we are an oddity in the mass of humanity, it doesn't make us any less human or deserving in any way. Also most Christian ministers do not ever teach the history of events that surround the Bible outside of the literal scripture meaning. It is taking the story out of its context. I have heard only a few Protestant ministers who even understood the history of the Bible. I have liked to listen sometimes to Catholic radio when they happen to have a priest on who is a scholar. Many Catholic priests are but of course there are also the ones who are not. I have had some very interesting talks with Rabbis. They can not only teach you the historical facts of the Jewish people but also their translations of the Torah are sometimes different than the version of the Old Testament passed down through Christian traditions. Also the Torah is so much larger than the Bible version. The Christian version is really just the cliff notes that seemed relevant to Emperor Constintine and his first conclaves who compiled it. There is so much more out there especially in regards to the Israelite philosophical age that occurred after they were allowed to return from Babylon such as the Book of Job. Many Christians also do not understand the Hebrew Laws were split with some laws for the commoners and others for the priest class. Then there were some others specific to the high priests. Anyway enough religion.

Even if you are not medically intersex, that doesn't make being transgender less true. One is the description of the body where the other is just the description of the brain. Religion doesn't matter if your brain is wired female like you will always be female in your thoughts.

I have done a lot of research originally just to prove to myself that I was a valid person. What I learned is that we have three basic developmental stages regarding sex.

1st trimester: 6-12 weeks, the choice between female organs and male organs is made by a single protein from a single gene. The gene SRY normally is on the Y chromosome. This is the one trigger by a protein this gene encodes. The protein TDF is the chemical trigger for male organs. We start with a pair of bi-potential gonads, Wolffian Ducts, and Mullerian Ducts. TDF makes one part of these gonads form testes Sertoli cells at 6-7 weeks. These Sertoli cells produce another chemical called AMH. (anti-Mullerian hormone) This hormone is the only thing that will stop female organs from beginning to grow from the Mullerian Ducts. It also causes a second testes cell to develop. The Leydig cells will now start to produce testosterone. Without testosterone the male structures (Wolffian Ducts) will begin to die off. With testosterone, the Wolffian Ducts will grow into male organs (prostate, seminal vesicles, sperm ducts) and the testes will push through the abdominal wall.
Several things happen with testosterone. There are specific bone joints that take on a male shape. (sacroiliac joint, knees, elbows). The Wolffian Ducts grow into male organs. Next an enzyme is needed to change testosterone into its more powerful version dihydrotestosterone (DHT). This hormone is needed to force the external genital folds to form a penis, scrotum, and close the gap between the scrotum.
Opposite of this, if there is no SRY gene, no TDF protein, then by 12 weeks the gonads will form ovarian cells. The lack of AMH will allow the Mullerian Ducts to begin forming female internal organs, and without testosterone the one joint profiles and external genital folds will remain in the female form.

2nd trimester The brain will be developing. Different segments of instinctual and interconnection neurons will take on a permanent configuration. If there is testosterone this will move these segments in a male pattern. Without testosterone these areas will remain in a default female pattern. These areas each grow in their own timeframe so fluctuations in testosterone or interference from outside chemicals can cause some areas to be more masculine and others more feminine. Even in the cis study populations there is some variance.

3rd trimester Testosterone is again a trigger chemical for one particular segment called INH2 of the hypothalamus. We know the size and neural pattern of this area corresponds to sexual attraction. We know that the more testosterone at the end of pregnancy, the larger this region becomes. From straight and gay male and female studies, we know the larger it is the more a person reports being attracted to the female form and the smaller it is the more the person is attracted to the masculine body form.
Studies done on mice in the 1990's showed that by blocking T or adding T, entire litters could be made attacted to male or female sexually and upon disection the same area of the hypothalamus had the same size and neuron density seen in human MRI and post mortem disections.



One of the most interesting things I found given the whole LGBT rights issue, is studies dating back to the 1970's by biologists. It was known by biologists that all mammals had prenatal, hormone affected, sexually dimorphic, brain regions in 1970. Yes 1970!

However the common person kept wanting to believe we as humans were so special that science pertaining to animals didnt apply to us in any way. I still see people posting things like that on FB today. Crazy.

All of that sounds about right. The science I mean. Not the religion part.

Anyway, it sounds like what happened to me is, All of the testosterone went to me heavily in the first 6-12 weeks. So I get a tall male frame. Then by the time she started making my brain, she ran out of testosterone since she gave me so much in the first 6-12 weeks. Like a procrastination, at the last second she pumps some testosterone into my brain giving me superior reflexes and spatial abilities, but my brain remains mostly female with some patchy male traits scattered here and there. Then in the final trimester, she finally gets her T back and thus causing me to lust after women. So im pretty much a freak of nature, although it seems like nature is a freak of itself because the whole process you mentioned, making the brain in a different stage of the body, its just begging for problems and gender mixups to happen.

The "tall male frame" can actually be the result of below normal male testosterone levels, especially if you have long, slender arms and legs, and legs that are unusually long in relation to your upper body.

Quote from: HughE on November 08, 2018, 03:30:39 AM
The "tall male frame" can actually be the result of below normal male testosterone levels, especially if you have long, slender arms and legs, and legs that are unusually long in relation to your upper body.

Yes I do. And I know mario is a high testosterone man. But that russian guy from rocky was also high testosterone. So none of it makes sense.

High testosterone in puberty = increased estrogen also. Turns out estrogen is what makes the growth plates start to harden. So low testosterone production will = low levels of estrogen in the body. While estrogen conversion is pretty small anyway in males, it is needed none the less.

If you read up on Estrogen Insensitivity Syndrome you will find that the tall stature and long arm and legs is common to both male and females with this condition. It has to do with estrogen receptor ERa.

Males with EIS experience elevated LH, FSH and T.
Females with EIS have similar elevated LH, FSH, and E and T levels. They lack breast and other normal secondary traits.

Quote from: josie76 on November 08, 2018, 03:00:56 PM
High testosterone in puberty = increased estrogen also. Turns out estrogen is what makes the growth plates start to harden. So low testosterone production will = low levels of estrogen in the body. While estrogen conversion is pretty small anyway in males, it is needed none the less.

I had a high teststerone in puberty probably. High sex drive and angry all the time. And I would cry alot and feel feminine a lot. I didn't like playing sports with guys I was shy. So I probably had high T and high E.

Quote
If you read up on Estrogen Insensitivity Syndrome you will find that the tall stature and long arm and legs is common to both male and females with this condition. It has to do with estrogen receptor ERa.

Males with EIS experience elevated LH, FSH and T.
Females with EIS have similar elevated LH, FSH, and E and T levels. They lack breast and other normal secondary traits.

I doubt I have that but lol, there are only 5 recorded people in the world who ever had that. The male who had it had higher estrogen than normal, but did not have gender dysphoria. It's weird because the name of it sounds like the reverse, less estrogen than normal.

Yeah incidence of estrogen insensitivity are more rare. I pointed it out because it demonstrates how estrogen receptors are what stop the longbone growth in both girls and boys. On average girls hit pre-puberty earlier than boys and since estrogen is the hormone that affects the growth plates, girls on average remain shorter despite hitting their growth spurt earlier than boys.

Quote from: josie76 on November 10, 2018, 01:48:28 PM
Yeah incidence of estrogen insensitivity are more rare. I pointed it out because it demonstrates how estrogen receptors are what stop the longbone growth in both girls and boys. On average girls hit pre-puberty earlier than boys and since estrogen is the hormone that affects the growth plates, girls on average remain shorter despite hitting their growth spurt earlier than boys.

In that case, how do you reconcile it with what HughE said? That "The "tall male frame" can actually be the result of below normal male testosterone levels, especially if you have long, slender arms and legs, and legs that are unusually long in relation to your upper body."

I remember reading something about that before. But I can't remember where. It was something about how males are getting taller and slender and more feminine.

Estrogen is produced in the male body from testosterone in tissues. A small amount is normal for regular functioning of the body systems. The lower T available in the blood stream, the lower estrogen made in tissues.

So in a normal female child, puberty hormones begin earlier, growth spurt begins earlier, but height is limited because of the estrogen in the bloodstream.
In the normal male child, puberty hormones begin a year or so later, the growth spurt starts later, then it takes longer for the lower level of estrogen to effect stopping bone length growth.

Both sexes get their secondary bone growth, but I am talking about height and arm leg growth which normally remain in an average ratio.

So yeh Hugh is 100% right that hypogonadism will often result in a tall stature.

Interestingly, people with Kleinfelters often have an extra tall stature as well

The official definition of 'intersex' addresses contradictions in sexual development of individuals from the neck down.  Until recently, knowledge of the sexually dimorphic development of the human brain was a complete mystery, and relegated to the realm of psychiatrists and psychologists.  Dr. Milton Diamond retired professor of anatomy and reproductive biology at the University of Hawaii, and a strong advocate of the organization-activation theory which claims that the nervous system of a developing fetus responds to prenatal androgens so that, at a postnatal time, it will determine how sexual behavior is manifest, considers transsexuality to be a special type of intersex condition stemming from the developmental misalignment of the human brain and body as it relates to sexual and/or gender identity. 

Possibly intersex?  Yes, most probably, if you accept that transsexuality is a form of intersexuality.  The question is: what type of intersex condition is at play?

Maybe, I know I was always feminine in my mind but I was forced to play the part I was dealt. Peer pressure but also physical pressure to conform. The smart ones will learn quickly. I learned in first grade. Finally one day I started to tell my wife about how I had always experienced these wants for a baby. Within a short moment of describing it to her, quite honestly poorly, she sat up and said " you're trans". I guess I needed someone important to just tell me it was ok to be my real self. I came very close to telling my mom back in my early preteen and teenage years but such things I was taught we're not to be spoken of. So I remained in hiding. I have to say I was never in denial, I had just reminded myself that I was stuck and that was all there was. I even would tell myself that it just wasn't my place to ever be happy in life. Wow was I messed up.