Hi!  I already posted my story here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,242109.0.html  To be honest I probably won't post much here; I'm just here to try to find some direction as far as the physical side of being intersex  goes and I thought maybe my story would help others in similar situations as well.  As stated I am a conservative Bible believing Christian and am fairly well educated about what the Bible has to say on issues of gender and what constitutes a right relationship.  I believe marriage should be between a biological man and a biological woman.  With that stated I'm not here to bash anybody either, so don't get the wrong idea!  It seems to me that more and more we are seeing people born in between genders with biological traits of both.  Anyway I'm hoping that I can break the stereotype that all conservative Christians hate LGBTQ people and don't care to listen at all to their concerns.  I'm not that way at all and given my gender dysphoria and possibly being intersex I actually can relate in some ways even though I don't support the lifestyle and we may disagree on things.  Especially with intersex people I think it is a bit of a grey area and I do believe that gender is a spectrum physically and mentally largely depending on factors in utero.  For me I consider this just like any other medical issue and it's something that my fiance and I have been working through.  I believe the right answer is to seek good council on these sorts of things as they will largely be individual issues and there isn't one right umbrella answer for everyone as everyone is different.  The biggest issue I find is that good unbiased medical advice is hard to find because of the social taboo.  I don't pretend to have all the answers and I pray for those of you searching for answers just like I am to make right choices in your lives!  I hope that my story will inspire other folks and especially other Christians suffering from any gender related issues to be honest about them with their families or significant others and I pray that they'll be as understanding and helpful as my fiance has been!  Hopefully as we (the human race as a whole) understand more about the human body and what causes issues like intersex, gender dysphoria, etc the social taboo will gradually go away and help will be easier to find!

Welcome to Susan's Place! I hope that you find your answers.

I respect your views, but my view (and thankfully the Federal government's) is that a marriage should be between two people who love each other. I  don't think views and values written down over 2,000 years ago have much bearing on modern life. For example, restrictions on wearing two types of cloth. I'd guess most Christian people completely ignore that one. 

See you around the site!

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn on November 01, 2018, 10:58:02 AM
Welcome to Susan's Place! I hope that you find your answers.

I respect your views, but my view (and thankfully the Federal government's) is that a marriage should be between two people who love each other. I  don't think views and values written down over 2,000 years ago have much bearing on modern life. For example, restrictions on wearing two types of cloth. I'd guess most Christian people completely ignore that one. 

See you around the site!

Hugs, Devlyn

Hello there!  I can respect your views as well!  Like I said even if we disagree on topics we still have a common ground we can meet on with our issues of gender and I think a board like this can be a huge tool as different people can share different views for the support and betterment of each other!    I believe it still applies today as issues of philosophy haven't changed even with all of our technological advancements.  People are still people!  I think where a lot of Christians get hung up is that they are scared of issues dealing with gender because they are uneducated on the subject and aren't willing to do research for themselves.  A lot of Christians (and people in general) also feel for some reason that science and religion are opposed to each other.  While that is true for most religions, I think it stands to reason that if you believe in a God that created everything then you should also believe that He created science and the answers found in it.  So far I've never been able to prove the Bible wrong no matter what topic I've studied and for me this is just another one of life's complicated issues.  I think looking to medical science for an answer as to why we are the way we are is what God would intend in the given situation and I'm not afraid to put the Bible to the test!  I've studied out many other issues in my life already and found reasonable answers that I believe are true.  The exact answer for every issue may not be in the Bible; but it was written to be a guide for life not a step by step walkthrough.  My philosophy is to try to live according to the Bible the best I can and find answers with the mind God gave me without living in opposition to His teachings.  Ah, I actually was curious on that law as well and studied it out probably 15 years ago.  To be honest I don't remember what the exact reason was; but I remember it had application to the time period that it was written and it was there to help people just as the law of not touching things that were dead was there to keep people safe from bacteria and things in corpses that were dangerous for their health.  I will say this though, the Old Testament law wasn't given as a set of rules to keep perfect and then you get to go to heaven.  The point of it was to show humanity we can in no way keep the whole law and need a savior.  That's why God sent His Son Jesus to die for our sins.  You may not have been looking for me to post all that haha but I figured I'd at least try to give an answer since I believe that if a person believes something they should be able to back it up with knowledge.  I can redo my research on the cloth issue if you are actually interested in the answer though.  Also, I see you are a veteran!  Thank you for your service!  Yes, see you around! 

Thanks, it was my pleasure to serve our nation. 

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Hiddenside on November 01, 2018, 10:41:00 AM
Hi!  I already posted my story here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,242109.0.html  To be honest I probably won't post much here; I'm just here to try to find some direction as far as the physical side of being intersex  goes and I thought maybe my story would help others in similar situations as well.  As stated I am a conservative Bible believing Christian and am fairly well educated about what the Bible has to say on issues of gender and what constitutes a right relationship.  I believe marriage should be between a biological man and a biological woman.  With that stated I'm not here to bash anybody either, so don't get the wrong idea!  It seems to me that more and more we are seeing people born in between genders with biological traits of both.  Anyway I'm hoping that I can break the stereotype that all conservative Christians hate LGBTQ people and don't care to listen at all to their concerns.  I'm not that way at all and given my gender dysphoria and possibly being intersex I actually can relate in some ways even though I don't support the lifestyle and we may disagree on things.  Especially with intersex people I think it is a bit of a grey area and I do believe that gender is a spectrum physically and mentally largely depending on factors in utero.  For me I consider this just like any other medical issue and it's something that my fiance and I have been working through.  I believe the right answer is to seek good council on these sorts of things as they will largely be individual issues and there isn't one right umbrella answer for everyone as everyone is different.  The biggest issue I find is that good unbiased medical advice is hard to find because of the social taboo.  I don't pretend to have all the answers and I pray for those of you searching for answers just like I am to make right choices in your lives!  I hope that my story will inspire other folks and especially other Christians suffering from any gender related issues to be honest about them with their families or significant others and I pray that they'll be as understanding and helpful as my fiance has been!  Hopefully as we (the human race as a whole) understand more about the human body and what causes issues like intersex, gender dysphoria, etc the social taboo will gradually go away and help will be easier to find!

Welcome Hiddenside!

I would be more than willing to talk with you about the theology of the bible and intersex and transgender questions you have. My father is a pastor and I spent several years studying Theology. I always considered myself to be a conservative, reformed Christian who believes the word of God is true. I also know that I have struggled with being transgender since I was 4.

As a Christian, I wanted to make sure that my faith stays preserved and I am able to understand where my beliefs are now that I have decided to pursue transition.

I am not sure that this is the best place to discuss everything, but I would be more than willing to chat privately with you about things if you want. I imagine a moderator will come by to see where this should be placed. There is a religion portion of the forum.

Unfortunately a majority of Christians choose to show hate to the LGBTQ community instead of embracing them as people and showing them love. It is disappointing, and I applaud you for caring enough to ask questions here, and work with your fiance on finding out where you all stand.

I will address that according to my belief and studies, the old testament laws were fulfilled when Christ came. Read through Leviticus and you will see a long list of laws that were in place to distinguish the Israelite's from the surrounding nations. Their are several classifications of laws in the old testament. They are Ceremonial Laws, Governmental Laws and Moral Laws.

Something like wearing two types of cloth would not fall into a Moral law category and was something that was no longer necessary to follow after Jesus. The same is true of animal sacrifices.

Lacy

I don't understand. Sorry. Intersex is a medical condition. Right. It's technically a biological, maybe even physical, deformity. I don't mean it in a negative way, but it is unusual... Regardless how "common" you may think it is now.
But transgender people (typically) don't "look" different than their "gender assigned at birth" counterparts... Okay. What about the pain, sufferring and agony?
Do we ignore that? What actually is in place to help transgender people? Who seem to be more "common" now too...
Is this something in the water we're drinking? What's really the issue here? But no, physical deformity is medical and everything else is questionable. Right.
Thanks for your viewpoint, but you haven't yet added anything new. I always like to learn more about how much more valid intersex people are...

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

Hi 

Welcome to Susan's Place    Glad to have you here, join on in the fun

Hugs

V M

Quote from: Hiddenside on November 01, 2018, 10:41:00 AMI believe marriage should be between a biological man and a biological woman. 
...
I don't support the lifestyle

Welcome, HiddenSide.

I won't attempt to talk about theology, since I am not a Christian.  But these two passages I quoted attracted my attention.

I entered into marriage with my wife under the sincere belief that it was between a cis man (me) and a cis woman (her).  With my transition, we are now aware that it is in fact between a trans woman and a cis woman.  We both took our vows, "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health", seriously.  We are staying together. 

So, how, in your view should that work?  I was never a "biological man".  From birth, I have been, biologically, a trans woman.  I can't see the Bible saying that we should divorce, when we are still in love with each other, and have kept and are continuing to keep our vows.  And yet, this is now a same-sex marriage.

And what "lifestyle" are you referring to?  Being trans is not a lifestyle.  My lifestyle is pretty much the same lifestyle as that of most retirees around here, though I will admit there are a couple of minor differences.

Quote from: RealLacy on November 01, 2018, 12:27:33 PM
Welcome Hiddenside!

I would be more than willing to talk with you about the theology of the bible and intersex and transgender questions you have. My father is a pastor and I spent several years studying Theology. I always considered myself to be a conservative, reformed Christian who believes the word of God is true. I also know that I have struggled with being transgender since I was 4.

As a Christian, I wanted to make sure that my faith stays preserved and I am able to understand where my beliefs are now that I have decided to pursue transition.

I am not sure that this is the best place to discuss everything, but I would be more than willing to chat privately with you about things if you want. I imagine a moderator will come by to see where this should be placed. There is a religion portion of the forum.

Unfortunately a majority of Christians choose to show hate to the LGBTQ community instead of embracing them as people and showing them love. It is disappointing, and I applaud you for caring enough to ask questions here, and work with your fiance on finding out where you all stand.

I will address that according to my belief and studies, the old testament laws were fulfilled when Christ came. Read through Leviticus and you will see a long list of laws that were in place to distinguish the Israelite's from the surrounding nations. Their are several classifications of laws in the old testament. They are Ceremonial Laws, Governmental Laws and Moral Laws.

Something like wearing two types of cloth would not fall into a Moral law category and was something that was no longer necessary to follow after Jesus. The same is true of animal sacrifices.

Lacy

Ah, sounds like our beliefs about Salvation and Theology are very similar then.  I don't believe in reformed Theology myself and I am Independent Fundamental Baptist; but I'm glad to know that there are other members with strong Christian backgrounds!  I'm open to chatting as well, though I think my fiance and I more or less have things worked out as far as where we stand with our relationship and we are both very happy!  More or less my personal reason for joining was to figure out the medical side of things as she is concerned; but I think we got the answers we were looking for in my original post.  Stay strong in the Faith!  To be honest I'm not really sure where I stand on the matter of transitioning.  There's so much grey area.  I pray that God will help you to make right decisions as you go forward.  I feel blessed that I at least know it isn't something I would want to pursue.  Yes, I agree that it is a shame the way LGBTQ people get treated.  There's so much negative perpetuated in the media as well with crazies like Westboro "Baptist" church.  That's not how Jesus would treat people at all.  I believe He would have had compassion on them, gave them advice, and maybe even healed them depending on the case.  What I would give to be able to have known Him the way His disciples did.  So many questions could be answered!  But I suppose it isn't meant to be.  Ah yes!  You are correct.  That does ring a bell as to what I found with that law as well.  To distinguish the Israelite's from the world as God's chosen people.  I worked all day so I didn't get a chance to pull out my own research from my teen years; but you hit the nail on the head with that.  Thanks!

Quote from: Allison S on November 01, 2018, 12:45:42 PM
I don't understand. Sorry. Intersex is a medical condition. Right. It's technically a biological, maybe even physical, deformity. I don't mean it in a negative way, but it is unusual... Regardless how "common" you may think it is now.
But transgender people (typically) don't "look" different than their "gender assigned at birth" counterparts... Okay. What about the pain, sufferring and agony?
Do we ignore that? What actually is in place to help transgender people? Who seem to be more "common" now too...
Is this something in the water we're drinking? What's really the issue here? But no, physical deformity is medical and everything else is questionable. Right.
Thanks for your viewpoint, but you haven't yet added anything new. I always like to learn more about how much more valid intersex people are...

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

Well, by common I don't really mean any more than it ever has been.  I suppose it's just that it's getting more and more coverage nowadays with the internet.  I have heard that an intersex condition is about as common as seeing a redhead.  Also, with the existence of intersex people being tangible evidence to prove something is different medically with that person I feel like it's not unreasonable to group in trans people and other groups with them in saying that it is indeed something physically different about that persons DNA/physical development/brain development/etc.   I don't pretend to know the first thing about medical science, but I think my statement isn't unreasonable.  Even if we don't have the answers as to why yet, it doesn't mean they don't exist.  I'm sure people thought the Wright brothers were crazy too and now people travel with airplanes everyday.  They changed the world.  Please don't think my intention is to say intersex is legitimate and trans isn't.  That's not the case at all.  Also, I agree that there really isn't much of anything to help trans people other than boards like this.  I think that will change in the future as the science advances.  Look how much has changed just the last few generations.  We are out in the open now and people are starting to accept our existence and many want to help.  As far as your "Is something in the water" comment goes I actually do think a lot of the issues come from medications and foods we eat that are high in different types of estrogens.  I think a lot has to do with medications our mothers were on while we were in utero as well.  That has only been a thing within the last hundred years and I believe that applies to any and all people who suffer from issues like ours.  Even non gender related issues have been caused by those medications.  I find it very sad, but it is a fact that pharmaceutical companies are really just out to make money and don't care all that much about helping people.  That may not be true of the men and women who engineer the drugs; but it is certainly true in the case of the suits working there.  I am glad however for the advancements we've made as a whole.  Hopefully the people who work on them will find better solutions and things like DES will be distant memories like lobotomies.  But I digress.  I don't expect to be able to add anything new to the conversation.  I'm simply here to find out what sort of doctor I should see and what sort of tests I would need done to determine whether I should expect some of the medical issues that women deal with or if my soon-to-be wife and I will be able to have children.  That and share my story.  Apologies if you misunderstood!

Quote from: KathyLauren on November 01, 2018, 03:26:10 PM
Welcome, HiddenSide.

I won't attempt to talk about theology, since I am not a Christian.  But these two passages I quoted attracted my attention.

I entered into marriage with my wife under the sincere belief that it was between a cis man (me) and a cis woman (her).  With my transition, we are now aware that it is in fact between a trans woman and a cis woman.  We both took our vows, "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health", seriously.  We are staying together. 

So, how, in your view should that work?  I was never a "biological man".  From birth, I have been, biologically, a trans woman.  I can't see the Bible saying that we should divorce, when we are still in love with each other, and have kept and are continuing to keep our vows.  And yet, this is now a same-sex marriage.

And what "lifestyle" are you referring to?  Being trans is not a lifestyle.  My lifestyle is pretty much the same lifestyle as that of most retirees around here, though I will admit there are a couple of minor differences.

As I said before, I don't have all the answers.  I really wish I did!  It's definitely a religious grey area that has only come about in recent years with the advancements of medical science.  I'll do you one higher and say that a lot of people say that the answer to the trans issue is if you were born a biological male then you cannot ever be a real woman as you cannot conceive.  You're just a feminized male.  Well the fact is that medical science is on the verge of making that a possibility.  From my understanding it is already possible to convert Y chromosomes to X (though I believe that it isn't actually necessary and of course there are already XX men and XY women as it is) and I have heard there is a 3d printer for human tissue in the works that uses an individuals DNA that would make it possible to give them a womb that matches their own body as if they were born with it.  It may be another 50 or a hundred years from being commonplace; but when it becomes possible isn't relevant.  The fact that it is possible destroys the argument.  I wish I had the answers, but sadly I do not!  What I meant by the lifestyle is what is perpetuated.  I think for the most part people on here probably just want to live quiet lives and not be bothered; but I also think some people are just out for shock tactics and attention.  I suppose I mean that I don't like the whole in your face loud and proud lifestyle that some people live.  I mean it's a gender issue not a football game lol.  I'm not saying we shouldn't get exposure for those people brave enough to step into the public spotlight; but I also think that many who do also go about it in such a way that leaves regular people disgusted rather than educated and informed.

Quote from: V M on November 01, 2018, 01:16:49 PM
Hi 

Welcome to Susan's Place    Glad to have you here, join on in the fun

Hugs

V M

Thank you all for the welcome!

Quote from: Hiddenside on November 02, 2018, 12:20:32 AM
  Also, with the existence of intersex people being tangible evidence to prove something is different medically with that person I feel like it's not unreasonable to group in trans people and other groups with them in saying that it is indeed something physically different about that persons DNA/physical development/brain development/etc.   I don't pretend to know the first thing about medical science, but I think my statement isn't unreasonable.  Even if we don't have the answers as to why yet, it doesn't mean they don't exist.

I am one of the people of the medical science, and because of that I know that you are wrong.  I am also intersex, and beside diabetes and a very slight kidney problem, nothing is wrong with me medically!
Intersex is not a medical condition!  Intersex is a biological condition.  That means, your good lord decided to make me the way I am.  If it would be a medical condition, we could try to heal it!  We can't do that with the biological condition because we cannot take every individual cell in the body and scratch that extra x chromosome from it!
and because your good lord does not make any mistakes, and everything has its purpose, we have to live this way as almost two gender inside one body.  Some conservative churches call us abominations, and would not love anything more than eliminating us (NAZI Gas Chambers did that a lot - my mother escaped from one of the camps).
If you call living a normal life a life style, would you cal somebody, who was born with one leg only also somebody who lives a life style?  What is different between such a person and one who was born intersex?
and i hope that you will not get married to make e sure you don't violate your belief system, because biologically you are not really a man, you look like one but you are not one because that second X is messing your system up!

It is people like you, who cause the problems for us, because the haters look at people like you and you tell them that we live a life style!, which means we choose the way we live.  One can change any life style because it is an acquired behavior, we just don't want that to change(and we can join the training camps the have to turn gay people around because that is also a life style). 
I promise that I will abandon my life style of an intersex person, as soon as you tell me where to find that chromosome scraper.  But we also need to tell the one legged person to better grow a second leg, because we don't like the life style of one legged people!
If you look into the new Testament (the guiding book or all Christians), you will find a sentence that says: love your neighbor....  There is not a singel sentence that says : condemn his or her life style!
I wish religion would leave its tainted and messy fingers out of medicine and biology!

I am not allowed to post links yet, otherwise I would want to link an article from Nature that explains pretty well what id going on with all the chromosomes and the whole sex thing!