Quote from: Andra on April 04, 2008, 02:41:09 PM
Last time I checked, transsexuality was a medical condition, not about masturbating over gender roles.

What if your medical condition involves masturbating over gender roles?



giggity giggity goo

Quote from: Andra on April 04, 2008, 02:41:09 PM

Transsexuals HAVE to take on 'traditional' gender roles?!  Since when and according to whom exactly?!  Are transsexual men and women not allowed to be anything other than a stereotype.  Jesus, no wonder a significant proportion of the feminist community hates us.

Last time I checked, transsexuality was a medical condition, not about masturbating over gender roles.

Meow..phhht phhhht...

Ok replace the word Traditional with Natal. Men don't give birth and women don't penetrate their partners with a penis.

To me. Only to me. That is how I view things.... I doubt I pissed off the feminist community with that statement. In fact, I bet they agree.


Posted on: April 04, 2008, 05:42:40 PM

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Quote from: Keira on April 04, 2008, 01:28:17 PM

Well, your opening a can of worms here because your basically saying a non-op and pre-op
is not a TS!!

Many many many FTM are not able to get their ovaries removed, can't get them removed
(doctor's dont want to) or don't want to chance a very invasive and expensive surgery for
not much upside, since the outside genital surgery is very expensive and not very conclusive.

Are you going to tell me that all those people are he-males! or not TS.

The she-male term is almost exclusively linked to the porn industry, look it up...
And there are plenty in them with fetishist and gay backgrounds who would not identify
as female.


The whole "traditional" thing linked seemingly in your head with sexuality kinds of loses me.
So, a FTM can't really be a man until he gets a penis? Didn't know gender was so linked
to genitals and reproductive organs...

Also, once we've established that someone with their ovaries can be a TS and a
full blown male, while not traditional (whatever that means), well why not have a child.

No... a FTM can be a man. A man does not Give birth. A man does not get pregnant. A penis does not make you a man. If you are going to identify as a man .....and be a man..then be a man. Men do not give birth. Until now?? Have the rules changed??

Quote from: Lori on April 04, 2008, 05:45:03 PM
Meow..phhht phhhht...

Ok replace the word Traditional with Natal. Men don't give birth and women don't penetrate their partners with a penis.

To me. Only to me. That is how I view things.... I doubt I pissed off the feminist community with that statement. In fact, I bet they agree.

Your statements sounded a hell of a lot more generalised than that, at least to me and the person who pointed me at this thread...

Even if we are talking very specifically I still disagree.  Just becuase cis men and women don't do things because they CAN'T shouldn't mean that those who can are denied the chance.  A transsexual getting one over on biology is a welcome change to the usual state of affairs \o/

Genitals do not make the gender. Saying someone must have, or must not have certain parts in order to fit into a certain category, is a really bad idea. If being transgender was just about getting genitals rearranged, then much of these forums would not be here.

I personally don't like the term 'she-male', because it is indeed about the porn industry. Not to say I don't like porn, I love porn like any other 20-something-technophile.

On top of it all, there are some people that do not sit at the binary ends of the scale. I personally am androgynous. Some androgynous folks identify as neither male, nor female. Should they be expected to remove all sexual parts to fit the role they are? My form of androgyny is that I view myself as both. Should I get the extra parts added on to fit my role?

I think this story is fascinating though. I have not seen the show, but I would like to. I was worried that it would be someone looking for their 15 minutes of fame, exploiting themselves and their child. But it sounds like that is not the case at all. Bringing awareness to the folks that are not "normal gendered" is a good thing, especially if it's brought in a positive light. TS and Gender Identity is a very confusing topic, to the extent that usually ourselves are somewhat confused on this site. I am constantly learning more about other folks, as I previously only had my personal experience to base my opinions on. Being able to see more has helped me a lot.

It makes me sad that there were members of the TS community that did not support him and his situation. We should embrace things that are not usual, because we aren't exactly usual ourselves. We should not be prejudiced or judgmental, if we don't want people treating us like that. In a way, it reminds me of how many times different minority groups will be prejudiced against each other, when in truth they should be allies. We should support members of our community, even if they seem a little bit 'different'. The community should be inclusive, not exclusive.

I am happy to say though, that this particular community at Susan's is one of the most inclusive and accepting communities I have seen regarding TS and androgyny.

Quote from: Andra on April 04, 2008, 05:52:22 PM

Quote from: Lori on April 04, 2008, 05:45:03 PM
Meow..phhht phhhht...

Ok replace the word Traditional with Natal. Men don't give birth and women don't penetrate their partners with a penis.

To me. Only to me. That is how I view things.... I doubt I pissed off the feminist community with that statement. In fact, I bet they agree.

Your statements sounded a hell of a lot more generalised than that, at least to me and the person who pointed me at this thread...

Even if we are talking very specifically I still disagree.  Just becuase cis men and women don't do things because they CAN'T shouldn't mean that those who can are denied the chance.  A transsexual getting one over on biology is a welcome change to the usual state of affairs \o/

I have no problem with what he did and unlike many here I actually saw the show. I just disagree he is transsexual. I don't have a problem with it. I just disagree with that statement. Thats all. If you want to disagree with my disagreeing with him I don't have a problem with that either. We can agree to disagree. Apparently some peoples definition of a Transsexual and mine are two different things. My def. just to set the record straight is that a transsexual changes sex. I don't care who agrees with me or not.

Quote from: Lori on April 04, 2008, 05:57:27 PM
My def. just to set the record straight is that a transsexual changes sex. I don't care who agrees with me or not.

Fair enough, as long as you're prepared to stick to your opinions and admit you don't regard the majority of FTMs as being transsexual.

Though in my opinion changing secondary sexual characteristics (removing breasts, growing facial hair, fat redistribution, different hormones acting on your brain) is fairly damn trans-sexual.

Quote from: Andra on April 04, 2008, 05:59:03 PM

Fair enough, as long as you're prepared to stick to your opinions and admit you don't regard the majority of FTMs as being transsexual.

Though in my opinion changing secondary sexual characteristics (removing breasts, growing facial hair, fat redistribution, different hormones acting on your brain) is fairly damn trans-sexual.

Whutevuuur!!!

I never meant it the way you explained it. Obviously I'm not able to get my message across to you. Not that it really matters. I most certainly think FTM's are MEN. Maybe they all want to get pregnant and I'm just being ignorant.

Quote from: Lori on April 04, 2008, 06:03:26 PM

I never meant it the way you explained it. Obviously I'm not able to get my message across to you. Not that it really matters. I most certainly think MTF's are MEN. Maybe they all want to get pregnant and I'm just being ignorant.

I think you meant FTMs not MTFs and last I heard, most of them don't get bottom surgery.

Quote from: Andra on April 04, 2008, 06:09:03 PM

Quote from: Lori on April 04, 2008, 06:03:26 PM

I never meant it the way you explained it. Obviously I'm not able to get my message across to you. Not that it really matters. I most certainly think MTF's are MEN. Maybe they all want to get pregnant and I'm just being ignorant.

I think you meant FTMs not MTFs and last I heard, most of them don't get bottom surgery.

You are Correct. I meant FTM. And yes I know most of them don't because it is so exspensive.. around 100k or so I believe.

I finally got the chance to watch the Oprah thingee this evening, and all I can say is: What on earth is wrong with that?! I think it's beautiful, whatever society might say about it, and whatever the reactions will be. And I think we might be surprised by how much support Thomas and his wife do end up getting. Those audience members were shocked when they heard how hard the Beatties had to fight to get a doctor. And the last segment where they talk about embracing diversity and Oprah adds her little bit ... that will get many viewers at least thinking twice before they judge.

But hell, maybe I'm just naively hopeful. I hope not though.

~Simone,
       Awed by the beauty of life.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9404EFDA1031F934A15752C1A962958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all


Just an article I would like to share about the concept of a male carrying a child in the world of science.  And guess what?  There are natal men who would volunteer to 'get pregnant'.  A woman had a hystorectomy and still conceived a child, the baby attached itself to her bowel.
Where there is a will, there is a way.

If in the future, men could be pregnant, will they not be men.

I think that's a bit screwed up, not to mentioned the intersexed, who
may have both organs, should they be forced to chop one to affirm
themselves men or women.

Quote from: lady amarant on April 04, 2008, 06:22:04 PM
I finally got the chance to watch the Oprah thingee this evening, and all I can say is: What on earth is wrong with that?! I think it's beautiful, whatever society might say about it, and whatever the reactions will be. And I think we might be surprised by how much support Thomas and his wife do end up getting. Those audience members were shocked when they heard how hard the Beatties had to fight to get a doctor. And the last segment where they talk about embracing diversity and Oprah adds her little bit ... that will get many viewers at least thinking twice before they judge.

But hell, maybe I'm just naively hopeful. I hope not though.

~Simone,
       Awed by the beauty of life.

I love you, Simone.        

I mean that in a nice way, not a weird one.   

I don't have TV, but just watched the first 3 segments on youtube. I've been supportive since I started following the news items, IMO it's his body so what he chooses is for him (and his partner) to decide, no one else. Watching the couple, I was quite moved. I think Thomas is a real mensch, in the truest sense of the word!

Well, I'm going to try and watch the rest of the program now.

Z

I wish the world were full of people like Thomas.

Quote from: Lori on April 04, 2008, 05:45:03 PM

No... a FTM can be a man. A man does not Give birth. A man does not get pregnant. A penis does not make you a man. If you are going to identify as a man .....and be a man..then be a man. Men do not give birth. Until now?? Have the rules changed??

I agree with Kir.  What if you aren't male or female?  I'm also androgyne.  Since I'm not male or female and do not take the role of man or woman, does that mean I can't give birth?  I happen to have a uterus (just ask Reeb, I sent hir my ovaries ).  And along those same lines, how are androgynes supposed to have sex since you have to be a man to penetrate?  It just seems a little silly to me.  If we're talking traditional roles, should an mtf stay in the kitchen?  Which "traditional" roles do we keep and which do we throw out?  I say to hell with all of them.  Love thy neighbor and all that.

I'm a little confused by the argument.  It just seems a little odd to expect a non "traditional" (Oh how I hate that word) person to behave traditionally.  His wife couldn't get pregnant, so he did.  Personally, I'm moved by how much they want that child.  What a wonderful family that child is being born into!  As an "accident" (a loved one, but still an accident), my heart is warmed by this story.  It's beautiful and wonderful, as Simone said.

I will say that I haven't seen the show yet (I'm going to try to watch it tomorrow), but I know some of the story.  You can thank Reeb for me seeing this thread (if I had been drinking anything, my dear, I would have spit on my monitor). 

I just think it's time for us to give up the "traditional" roles.  They are ridiculous and out dated.

Quote from: Jaimey on April 04, 2008, 11:58:18 PM
I agree with Kir.  What if you aren't male or female?  I'm also androgyne.  Since I'm not male or female and do not take the role of man or woman, does that mean I can't give birth?  I happen to have a uterus (just ask Reeb, I sent hir my ovaries ).  And along those same lines, how are androgynes supposed to have sex since you have to be a man to penetrate?  It just seems a little silly to me.  If we're talking traditional roles, should an mtf stay in the kitchen?  Which "traditional" roles do we keep and which do we throw out?  I say to hell with all of them.  Love thy neighbor and all that.

I'm a little confused by the argument.  It just seems a little odd to expect a non "traditional" (Oh how I hate that word) person to behave traditionally.  His wife couldn't get pregnant, so he did.  Personally, I'm moved by how much they want that child.  What a wonderful family that child is being born into!  As an "accident" (a loved one, but still an accident), my heart is warmed by this story.  It's beautiful and wonderful, as Simone said.

I will say that I haven't seen the show yet (I'm going to try to watch it tomorrow), but I know some of the story.  You can thank Reeb for me seeing this thread (if I had been drinking anything, my dear, I would have spit on my monitor). 

I just think it's time for us to give up the "traditional" roles.  They are ridiculous and out dated.

Well i do hate to be a bit of a buzzkill, but according to the terms and definitions of this site even if you are 'androgyne' you are still either a man or a women...albeit an androgynous one.

QuoteAndrogyne: An androgynous person

Androgynous: Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14714.0.html

Seems that one of these things doesn't mesh very well with the other...but it seems that 'tradition' is what's clung to anyhow.  ^^

Quote from: JC on April 05, 2008, 12:12:54 AM
Well i do hate to be a bit of a buzzkill, but according to the terms and definitions of this site even if you are 'androgyne' you are still either a man or a women...albeit an androgynous one.

In terms of body, but the argument was about the role (well, that's how I read it, anyway).  A man acts like a man.  So I was speaking in those terms.  But I see your point.  I prefer the term "female bodied" to "woman".

QuoteAndrogyne: An androgynous person

Androgynous: Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14714.0.html

Seems that one of these things doesn't mesh very well with the other...but it seems that 'tradition' is what's clung to anyhow.  ^^

I agree...but who am I, right?   

actually, I think we're not allowed to debate the wiki, or so I've been told...bad things happen...heh

I don't think he's any less a man for choosing to give birth. A lot of my bio male friends would love to give birth (sounds crazy to me, but there you go). If they could, they'd jump at the chance. Just because Thomas can, and wants to, doesn't make him any less a man in my eyes.

I also don't think he's any less transsexual than anyone else. Well, except that he seems pretty well done with his transition, so he's just a man, unless he feels he's still a work in progress.

Dennis

Quote from: Blanche on April 05, 2008, 04:55:48 AM
He has played with fire all along and now it's time to take the consequences.

For the price of listening to a group of bitchy trans people for about 15 minutes,  he gets a child to raise, care for and love for the rest of his life.  I think that's a fair bargain don't you?  Thomas said the desire to have children is a human trait, not one confined by the bounds of gender.  I can fully support that statement.

Who are we to pass judgement on the way some stranger chooses to live his life?  Last I heard procreation was not illegal .

" a True ->-bleeped-<- would never..."