Quote from: Kylo on November 30, 2018, 11:13:40 AM
It really is the epitome of a first-world problem.

Someone talking to you about something you already know. Crime of crimes.

All you have to do is say, "yes, I already know".

Kylo, you are right and your solution is a good one. But it is symbolic of other and larger issues, and so for me generates interesting discussion.

~Dee.

Quote from: Jessica on November 30, 2018, 11:23:55 AM
Unfortunately, in my experience, all to often I had gotten that response from those I sought to explain the situation, only to return later to find the task entirely wrong.  Often, with some I would instruct, then observe to make sure they understood.

That's why I prefer to train people in person. I watch them and when they get that glaze look in their eyes, I know they are missing the point somewhere. That's the point where you need to back up and ask questions to find out where you lost them. Fortunately I haven't had to work with a large group because I am not sure what you do in that environment when you lose a few.

Quote from: dee82 on November 30, 2018, 02:26:02 PM
Kylo, you are right and your solution is a good one. But it is symbolic of other and larger issues, and so for me generates interesting discussion.

~Dee.

I'm all for discussion, but I'm not sure what it's symbolic of. As others have said all kinds of people do this to each other. Sometimes it's complacency, sometimes it's just over-enthusiasm for a topic and sometimes it's dominance behavior or even flirting. Maybe other things too, like autism. As issues go, I would say it's a part of average human behavior rather than some sort of problem. A very mild annoyance at best, just like a million other little annoyances we have every day because nobody's a mind-reader. At worst, maybe it's a deliberate taunt, but as deliberate mean behavior goes again I think it's so mild as to be beneath serious notice and a contrived "problem".

I have people womansplain to me because they think I have no idea about certain women's concerns or topics. For example they think I've never been sexually harassed so I have "no idea what it's like" (incorrect). Or they think I don't know about their health problems. They are in a position of privilege over me because as a guy any sexual harassment happening to me would be largely laughed at (by both men and women), and women's health problems are also taken much more seriously on average... they have more funding given to them for their healthcare by the government and people worry about their health more. Honestly I don't take much offense at this, the assumption is that I couldn't possibly know but it's not coming from a place of malice, just ignorance and assumption. Not the worst things in the world in my opinion. 

It's much easier and more socially beneficial to stop them and say yes, you know all this already, and cite your qualifications, than widen the increasing rift between the sexes by accusing them of some sort of oppression. 
   
If it's meant to be symptomatic of men not taking women seriously in general, maybe that is because women in their field are rare, and the only women they've met are not minded to that particular topic. In the same way men with knowledge about women's concerns are rare and most women don't meet many so they assume someone like me is clueless. I suppose that will be fixed if more qualified women enter the field, but up till now trying to make women enter certain fields through encouragement hasn't worked as well as the government drives have hoped, and so perhaps they will always remain a minority by choice. Then there's the biological fact men have a tendency toward protecting women and that can include automatic mentoring-type behaviours. There is one surefire way to put a guy off doing that though and that's to bite his head off for doing it. Which will probably lead him to avoid women in general after that by negative association. I'm seeing the number of men avoiding women growing significantly by anecdote online. The "go away, I don't need you" response to them in general is having an affect by the look of things. I only hope that people who find male tendencies highly offensive don't hope down the line to attract them back in after scaring them off.

I'm aware of not being taken so seriously on a few occasions in the past, and sure, it was annoying. But it didn't ruin my day. No more than any other small social niggle. What I should have done at the time was set things straight with the person speaking.

(Also, what it is it with the activists trying to socially engineer regular human behavior out of people these days? Can you imagine the society they would actually want to create? It would probably be a world where people cannot make eye contact, have to speak in the greyest of terms, and probably don't want to socialize with each other for fear of causing any sort of offense, because the people who feel offended don't have the temerity to speak up for themselves in the first place but ask the state and police to step in. Only people of the same sex/race could speak to one another as equals and the rest would be on a tier system of privilege as to who can speak to who and who can say what to who. Offense being in the eye of the beholder and no context necessary. What a utopia. I guess we're halfway there these days.)

I get really excited about certain subjects (probably one foot on the edge of the spectrum), so if An Explanation ever organically becomes part of a conversation, before I go off the deep end, I just tell whoever I'm talking to, "Please stop me if you already heard about this." 

Quote from: Kylo on November 30, 2018, 03:12:59 PM
I'm all for discussion ...

Kylo, thank you for the long considered reply.

When I say mansplaining is symbolic of other and larger issues. It is part and parcel of the way that society is dominated by men.

In the country where I live, in the ruling political party less than a quarter of the elected representatives are women. And it is not because women aren't trying or aren't interested. The party has a real "boy's club" mentality which actively excludes women.

That is one example of what I think this forum thread is a tiny part of. Questioning, why are things the way they are? And can they be improved, for everyone.

Sure, men have their own challenges and issues to face. I am not saying they have it all good, and all are consciously oppressing women.

Maybe where you live women have it better in all areas of life, but by many measures and in many countries, women are routinely disadvantaged by the structures when compared to men.

Back to the mansplaining. The theme of this thread has talked about work environments, but I see mansplaining all the time, and it's not about fields of expertise, or strengths and interests in different topics.

I don't like talking in generalisations, so here is a real life example.

I was at a social gathering a few months back with an even mix of genders. A woman in the group had recently been on a long distance train trip where the train itself is between 800 and 1,000 metres long. Yeah, that's I mighty long train, right? And she was saying that it's amazing how long it was.

Immediately a male, scoffed at the mere idea that a passenger train could be that long. He had never been on that train, but he proceeded to use logic and arguments of physics, lengths of platforms, etc to prove that she must be mistaken. Another guy took the opportunity to weigh in and agree that there is no way the train was that long.

They were both wrong, and everyone was too polite, or too used to being lectured at by men, that no-one pulled out their phone to show how wrong they were.

To me this was a typical example of men patronising and talking down to women. And it happens a lot. It's part of mansplaining.

Now you may say it is not a gender trait, being patronising. But I suggest that men are encouraged to do it, and it is seen as almost normal.

Women who talk and behave in the same way like those two men did, is much rarer, while repeatedly in casual social settings the guys just feel compelled to strut their "knowledge", even when they may be wrong and have no special insight around the topic.

I am not suggesting it is the world's biggest problem. But it gets tiring.

~Dee

Quote from: dee82 on November 30, 2018, 07:43:06 PM
Kylo, thank you for the long considered reply.

When I say mansplaining is symbolic of other and larger issues. It is part and parcel of the way that society is dominated by men.

Quote

Not all of society. Men have their traditional domains like war, but the core of society, the family, is dominated by women. The home is generally dominated by them as well. The realm of motherhood/parenthood, where men are always a secondary. All the safe and comfortable places where society begins. There is this view that because men tend to hold the positions of political power, or physical power, that is the only kind of real power that exists. It's really not the most important kind of power when it comes to a society. Women are the ones who have the power over sex and who gets any. They have power over children and family matters. Most teachers of our children are women. It is to them that society looks when considering who should be provisioned and made safe for. It is them whose feelings we care about and whether they are happy, whether or not they take positions of responsibility outside these areas or not, and it is them who society does not want to see out on the streets or in danger. And then there's the power a woman can exert over the average man easily just because of his desire to please and get her validation. Those who can control the 'powerful' in society (i.e. men, as you say) are really the ones with the power if you ask me, because they will not be shoved onto the front lines to take a fall. They can have their cake and eat it too in today's first world society, frankly. They can get into positions of hard power, exert soft power, and have pretty much full control in terms of reproductive and marriage rights. The extent of women's power in the first world today is so great, that men have almost no power compared to them in the courts, in education, in marriage and with their kids, and with many other issues too, such as when two drunken people have a sexual encounter, only the man is generally expected to take responsibility there.

Yet we continue to believe some kind of myth that men in general in the West are oppressing women and holding them back. It wasn't true when I was a kid and it's not true now. It's true in Africa and the Middle East, yes and some other places, that's for sure. But not here.       

QuoteIn the country where I live, in the ruling political party less than a quarter of the elected representatives are women. And it is not because women aren't trying or aren't interested. The party has a real "boy's club" mentality which actively excludes women.

But elitism and cronyism and nepotism exists everywhere, I would not place that at the door of masculinity alone. The fact that there are any women in power at all, suggests they are not trying to prevent women from having any, as if they could, there'd be none. We all know politics is dominated by the networks of the wealthy and self-interested types. I would also be wary of trying to appoint people solely based on their sex and not their capabilities as good politicians. We have many women politicians in the UK but some are so dense they should not be there at all, and I would gladly show them the door for being incompetent politicians rather than worry about the "representation". The same goes for some of the men as well, mind you. But they happen to be there because of their wealth, or connections, or the votes of their constituencies.

QuoteMaybe where you live women have it better in all areas of life, but by many measures and in many countries, women are routinely disadvantaged by the structures when compared to men.

Very true. That's why I'm at a loss to see the rationale in people routinely attacking our Western social structures and Western men, (and women) who have been improving the situation and freedoms for women here for a century, but fail to criticize the patriarchal power structures in other countries that are still oppressive to women. Mainsplaining or manspreading versus what ISIS have been doing to captured women? Or what Saudi Arabia does to them?  I don't understand.   

Quote
Immediately a male, scoffed at the mere idea that a passenger train could be that long. He had never been on that train, but he proceeded to use logic and arguments of physics, lengths of platforms, etc to prove that she must be mistaken. Another guy took the opportunity to weigh in and agree that there is no way the train was that long.

They were both wrong, and everyone was too polite, or too used to being lectured at by men, that no-one pulled out their phone to show how wrong they were.

To me this was a typical example of men patronising and talking down to women. And it happens a lot. It's part of mansplaining.

Now you may say it is not a gender trait, being patronising. But I suggest that men are encouraged to do it, and it is seen as almost normal.

Being patronizing does seem to be a rather human trait. I'm patronized on this forum at times, for example. Doesn't bother me. I mean I would rather live in a situation where people can be tiresome, but free. You can always just scoff back. Or argue, or walk away, or any number of things. It would certainly bore me if everyone I spoke to simply agreed with me all of the time.

QuoteWomen who talk and behave in the same way like those two men did, is much rarer, while repeatedly in casual social settings the guys just feel compelled to strut their "knowledge", even when they may be wrong and have no special insight around the topic.

Well, of course. Information is how men "spar" these days, since we're not really allowed to be too masculine any more in most spaces. Men can't behave like women all of the time, they're too different. I think it would be harmful to expect them to be like women, just as it would be harmful to women to order them to behave like men all the time. As transgressions go, it's pretty minor.

I do wonder what harm our society is doing to young men these days in expecting them to mute their masculinity so as not to offend their female peers. We discourage young boys from being boisterous and excitable by doping them up with ritalin, and we tend to tailor our learning in schools to a format that caters to girls more than boys in this regard: competitiveness among kids is discouraged. Rough and tumble play is discouraged. We demand that men open up a lot of their private spaces to girls (i.e. the Scouts, golf clubs etc.) where again we would expect their competitiveness to be muted, but we also demand girls- and women-only spaces where boys and men are forbidden.

I wonder what effect this is having. Men, generally speaking, have different needs and desires and I'm not sure they are being met in our society, as we change it more and more to suit the needs of women. And to talk about this as if male human beings' needs ought to be considered at all is generally scoffed at in society. Men don't really matter to it. We focus on the few examples of male power like male politicians and think that represents the god-given lot of all men. Men are no longer the heads of the households, the teachers or the primary parental figures. I would argue the fact men have lost their right to be father figures in the West is having a severe effect on rising youth crime. Fatherlessnes correlates dramatically with gang violence and youth instability in the statistics. But we fail to grant fathers fair access in the court systems. Everything we do and the choices we make in freeing one section of society here and shackling another all have a price to be paid in the end. There is probably a middle ground or compromise area for things like this, but we seem to have gone past it now.           

Kylo, I can see that you do not share my particular set of feminist views and that is okay.

My poor typing skills means I cannot afford the time to respond to every point you make. I would dearly love to, but honestly I think composing a reply that does justice to the effort you have put into explaining where you are coming from, would take me approximately 3 to 4 hours to do properly.

That is time I do not have for the purpose of "sparring".

So the short version, and my response when you make comments like these:

Quote from: Kylo on November 30, 2018, 09:10:12 PMVery true. That's why I'm at a loss to see the rationale in people routinely attacking our Western social structures and Western men, (and women) who have been improving the situation and freedoms for women here for a century, but fail to criticize the patriarchal power structures in other countries that are still oppressive to women. Mainsplaining or manspreading versus what ISIS have been doing to captured women? Or what Saudi Arabia does to them? I don't understand.

Quote from: Kylo on November 30, 2018, 11:13:40 AMIt really is the epitome of a first-world problem. Someone talking to you about something you already know. Crime of crimes.

is that it is clear you want to infer it is inherently trivial issue and therefore it is too unimportant to discuss the said behaviour of "mansplaining".

So why would I bother?

~Dee.

I think the 'men are evil' mentality that seems so pervasive in our culture now is sad and ultimately harmful. Men are not evil, the good men I have known in my life far outnumber the bad, far outnumber. I have experienced evil men in my life, they are very rare. The two guys on the train are not the whole of men just two individuals. I know a guy like that, can be so annoying and everyone, men and women, just let him talk himself out. He is also one the most generous and caring people I have ever met. Does it make him evil that he goes on like that and refuses to accept that he is wrong? I don't think so.

When did everything a man does become a crime? Why has society decided men had to be like women?

Men can be so many infuriating things, they can, they can be so many amazing things as well. I happen to be very fond of them and in no way want them to be like women. My girlfriends are so important to me and I cannot imagine my life without them but I have absolutely no desire for them, they are not what I want and need in a partner.

Exhaustive explanations to someone that has no interest is probably not a good thing, not the end of the world though. If it is a habit and someone wants to change it, I say go for it, it can only make being around you more pleasant.

To think that talking too much about something that the other person is uninterested in is a man thing is ludicrous. Somehow we have labeled it when a man does it and villainize them for it. Perhaps they just have a harder time picking up the cues that they are boring someone to death. My man rarely talks, when he does I listen and do my best to be interested even if I would normally care less about the topic.

Frankly I am tired of the whole women are perfect creatures and men are trolls bit. I love being a woman, I love where I fit in now and the good and bad it brings. The dynamic between men and women is finally right for me, I wish that some people would stop trying to make men women. The world is not perfect but I like men as men, I wish that they would not be blamed for every thing wrong with the world.

Again I have a hard time putting thoughts into words. Sorry.
Ha! I should be sleeping, I have so much to do tomorrow!

Quote from: IAmM on December 01, 2018, 12:50:19 AM
...the good men I have known in my life far outnumber the bad, far outnumber.

IAmM, I agree with you.

That is why I always avoid making generalisations and give specific examples.

Comments like the next that I made are not blaming all men. I never have and never will accuse all men of anything. It is a comment on the structure of society.

When I say mansplaining is symbolic of other and larger issues. It is part and parcel of the way that society is dominated by men.

I certainly don't think men are evil, everything a man does is a crime, or that men have to be like women.

If I have somehow contributed to this thread taking on this direction, please know that that is not my belief or intention.

~Dee.

Not a time to be mansplaining.

Man refuses to accept anesthesia in case 'lady surgeon' needs advice
Satire

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2018/12/man-refuses-to-accept-anesthesia-in-case-lady-surgeon-needs-advice/

Quote from: dee82 on November 30, 2018, 11:49:45 PM
Kylo, I can see that you do not share my particular set of feminist views and that is okay.

I have no idea what your set of feminist views are to know if I do not share them. They can't be inferred from a couple of comments on a single topic. Nor can mine.

QuoteThat is time I do not have for the purpose of "sparring".

In this case I believe we were all partaking in a discussion not a sparring session. In discussion is it not acceptable to disagree, or clarify why one disagrees.

Quoteis that it is clear you want to infer it is inherently trivial issue and therefore it is too unimportant to discuss the said behaviour of "mansplaining".

So why would I bother?

You don't have to. I wasn't only writing in the thread for the benefit or attention of one person, but rather to make a series of counterpoints to the current obsession Western society has with picking on things that men do (one could note without picking on women to the same degree at all), and the notion of 'mansplaining' is one of those things - because we do not hear of 'womansplaining'. Like I say, I don't believe it's healthy to try to unravel masculinity and force it to conform to feminine comfort levels. That doesn't mean people can't have a complain about it, either in jest or maybe because they experienced it in their own lives, but it does mean that if you do it, someone should also be able to come along and point out why they don't think it's justified.

It's not too "unimportant" to discuss, I wanted to place it in some sort of context. Something that seems to be increasingly absent from feminist concerns of late in the West. Why we feel we should dissect every minor infraction of the male is a whole topic worthy of discussion, and also - the effects that is having on men and society at large is also worth talking about. It's not being talked about much at all, except by a few "renegade" feminist voices and social critics. Things like mansplaining, manspreading, eye contact, and so on that I find women also do... but only when a man does it is it considered a "problem". Why is this?