Quote from: Allison S on December 18, 2018, 12:18:17 PM

I never had male privilege either. I think I just experience queer and now trans discrimination.

^ This

My "Privilege" card was revoked in kindergarten.  The relentless bullying and abuse I had to endure, I would think should track well with other women who are fighting the same system which abused me...  I know, OP, that you are merely trying to see the other side and be tolerant of the RF's who would seek to pin us back into those boxes made for us by our common "enemy".  I simply can't see how doing the work of the patriarchy for them is somehow "Feminist"

I know a few 3rd wave feminists who have tried to reason with the 4th...  And they are attacked too just for trying to point out their view.  Anti-productive to the cause all the way around if you ask me.

Just my two cents.  For whatever they are worth.

What seems to have worked for me...at least the past 10 years is I don't care what people think, I don't try to conform to what people think I should be, I don't parade around who I am, nor do I try to educate people.
If people cannot accept me as I am, screw them.

Thank you all for sharing.   

I hope the day is going well for each of you.


Chrissy

Quote from: Nina on December 18, 2018, 01:00:22 PM
What seems to have worked for me...at least the past 10 years is I don't care what people think,

Hi Nina,

I so wish I could do this.  Did you have a hard time doing this at first?   

Quote from: Allison S on December 18, 2018, 12:18:17 PM
I never had male privilege either. I think I just experience queer and now trans discrimination.

I really agree with you about male privilege.  It's really hard to take advantage of this when you're depressed and anxious your whole life because your body is wrong.


Paige

We're the last people it's OK to hate

Quote from: Devlyn on December 18, 2018, 03:38:45 AM
"Why are many people unaccepting of transsexual people?"

I really don't think they are. Most people accept us just fine. Are you sure you aren't experiencing the societal conditioning that teaches us that only bad news IS news?

Hugs, Devlyn

Devlyn,

I am glad that you have experienced a nicer, accepting population!

Chrissy

Quote from: Paige on December 18, 2018, 03:27:23 PM
Hi Nina,

I so wish I could do this.  Did you have a hard time doing this at first?   

Hi Paige
I don't know why, but I never had a challenge transitioning. Early on in my transition, I had often heard from those who had transitioned that I needed to follow their roadmap for transition. I've never believed in following others. I did lots of research online about lots of topics and came to my own conclusions.
My therapist said, and I still believe, hormones don't make you a woman. So I believed early on not to expect miracles from HRT. What I believed from therapist, is she said living full time as Nina, gaining experience is what would help me.
As each passing day, I learned to look at people in the eye, not look at the ground, and smile a lot. The more I did this, the happier I was when met with a smile. I never felt ashamed of who I was. Sure, I always felt people were judging me, but hey, take a walk through WalMart or grocery store...people are in sweatpants, no makeup, etc.
My therapist, as well as others said I needed to get my voice right. I went to half a dozen sessions with a voice therapist. I found the work hard, it felt fake, and I quit.
Year two of transition was my breakthrough. No longer did I see my former self in the mirror. I saw Nina. I reminded myself daily I was Nina...and that this is is the face and body I've been blessed with. I discounted any benefit at my age (45 years then) of facial or vocal surgery.
I joined Meetup.com to meet people in my city. Whether it was camping, hiking, euchre get togethers, movies....whatever...no one cared about my voice. No one criticized me. No one misgendered me. I felt like I was fitting in all the more.

Now 10 years later, I know no longer dress up to be "girly." I dress how I want, not how others need to see me. I don't pretend with my voice. I haven't worn makeup since last year.
Just got back from Spain after a two week vacation. It was a big test for me as I've never flown as Nina. Whether at the airport,on the plane to Spain, the time in Spain...no one noticed. No one said anything. I got "ma'am" and "miss" everywhere.

So after 10 years, my conclusion is if you believe in yourself, surgeries are not necessary other than GCS if that's important. When I transitioned 10 years ago, I never envisioned I would have had GCS, but as time went on, it became much more important to me.

Attitude, confidence, and not giving a ->-bleeped-<- what others think is why I'm thriving.

Yes Nina!  Thank you. 

Hold your head up proudly.  Smile and be happy to be alive.  Get out to meet people and make new friends.  Voice is not everything!  How you speak is. 
Judi

Yup!

Thought creates.
I had that prob from birth where folks wanted me to be something other than what I was.
That bothered me then.
Even when I did a "formal" transition, folks still wanted me to be something other that what I was. It was almost comical - they couldn't see it. They wanted me to be like their version of what they thought female was. which was totally hosed.
So I learned how to relax and let problems/tensions/fears flow through me and away so they didn't bother me any more.
I cannot act.
I do not use makeup.
I do not "dress up".
I can only be.
I suppose there will always be folks who will be bothered by me, but if I am not bothered by it, they are stuck with it.
I mostly get "ma'am'ed", but If I get "sir'ed" - that's their problem. cis women get that. why should I care.

I just thought - but I'm intersex so I'm 1/2 cis anyway, LOL, so, really? why should I care?

Quote from: Nina on December 18, 2018, 06:24:45 PM
Hi Paige
I don't know why, but I never had a challenge transitioning. Early on in my transition, I had often heard from those who had transitioned that I needed to follow their roadmap for transition. I've never believed in following others. I did lots of research online about lots of topics and came to my own conclusions.
My therapist said, and I still believe, hormones don't make you a woman. So I believed early on not to expect miracles from HRT. What I believed from therapist, is she said living full time as Nina, gaining experience is what would help me.
As each passing day, I learned to look at people in the eye, not look at the ground, and smile a lot. The more I did this, the happier I was when met with a smile. I never felt ashamed of who I was. Sure, I always felt people were judging me, but hey, take a walk through WalMart or grocery store...people are in sweatpants, no makeup, etc.
My therapist, as well as others said I needed to get my voice right. I went to half a dozen sessions with a voice therapist. I found the work hard, it felt fake, and I quit.
Year two of transition was my breakthrough. No longer did I see my former self in the mirror. I saw Nina. I reminded myself daily I was Nina...and that this is is the face and body I've been blessed with. I discounted any benefit at my age (45 years then) of facial or vocal surgery.
I joined Meetup.com to meet people in my city. Whether it was camping, hiking, euchre get togethers, movies....whatever...no one cared about my voice. No one criticized me. No one misgendered me. I felt like I was fitting in all the more.

Now 10 years later, I know no longer dress up to be "girly." I dress how I want, not how others need to see me. I don't pretend with my voice. I haven't worn makeup since last year.
Just got back from Spain after a two week vacation. It was a big test for me as I've never flown as Nina. Whether at the airport,on the plane to Spain, the time in Spain...no one noticed. No one said anything. I got "ma'am" and "miss" everywhere.

So after 10 years, my conclusion is if you believe in yourself, surgeries are not necessary other than GCS if that's important. When I transitioned 10 years ago, I never envisioned I would have had GCS, but as time went on, it became much more important to me.

Attitude, confidence, and not giving a ->-bleeped-<- what others think is why I'm thriving.

+1

There is no one way to do this.  I agree with Nina, be yourself, and don't paint yourself into a corner, because you think you have to act in a certain, "proper" way.  I've been a musician for a long time (decades).  When I started transitioning in the late 90s, I not only sold all of my pro-level guitar gear to generate money, but because I thought I had to play music more suited for a woman to play.  In short order, I ended up regretting doing so, since the music I wound up playing, bored me to tears.  Nope, not for me.  I like acoustic guitar, but I also like my electric guitars, and loud, distorted guitar tones (besides, go to YouTube nowadays, there are a fair amount of younger women, who like it, and play it on guitar too [hey! I was just ahead of the times  ]).

Once again, just be yourself, you'll be much happier. 

Ellen - Hoping The Fender Telecaster She Ordered, Arrives At Her Favorite Guitar Shop Tomorrow

P.S. - Nina, I had a similar situation with regards to FFS vs SRS.  It was one or the other (I couldn't afford both), and since passing wasn't an issue for me, SRS (which was Goal #1 for me, when I started transitioning in Dec. 1998) it was (which was reinforced by the fact that I almost committed suicide in 2002, when I took a huge cut in pay due to corporate downsizing, and wound up flat broke, making SRS looking like an impossibility [luckily I was able to pull it off in 2003])

Quote from: Nina on December 18, 2018, 06:24:45 PM
Hi Paige
I don't know why, but I never had a challenge transitioning. Early on in my transition, I had often heard from those who had transitioned that I needed to follow their roadmap for transition. I've never believed in following others. I did lots of research online about lots of topics and came to my own conclusions.
My therapist said, and I still believe, hormones don't make you a woman. So I believed early on not to expect miracles from HRT. What I believed from therapist, is she said living full time as Nina, gaining experience is what would help me.
As each passing day, I learned to look at people in the eye, not look at the ground, and smile a lot. The more I did this, the happier I was when met with a smile. I never felt ashamed of who I was. Sure, I always felt people were judging me, but hey, take a walk through WalMart or grocery store...people are in sweatpants, no makeup, etc.
My therapist, as well as others said I needed to get my voice right. I went to half a dozen sessions with a voice therapist. I found the work hard, it felt fake, and I quit.
Year two of transition was my breakthrough. No longer did I see my former self in the mirror. I saw Nina. I reminded myself daily I was Nina...and that this is is the face and body I've been blessed with. I discounted any benefit at my age (45 years then) of facial or vocal surgery.
I joined Meetup.com to meet people in my city. Whether it was camping, hiking, euchre get togethers, movies....whatever...no one cared about my voice. No one criticized me. No one misgendered me. I felt like I was fitting in all the more.

Now 10 years later, I know no longer dress up to be "girly." I dress how I want, not how others need to see me. I don't pretend with my voice. I haven't worn makeup since last year.
Just got back from Spain after a two week vacation. It was a big test for me as I've never flown as Nina. Whether at the airport,on the plane to Spain, the time in Spain...no one noticed. No one said anything. I got "ma'am" and "miss" everywhere.

So after 10 years, my conclusion is if you believe in yourself, surgeries are not necessary other than GCS if that's important. When I transitioned 10 years ago, I never envisioned I would have had GCS, but as time went on, it became much more important to me.

Attitude, confidence, and not giving a ->-bleeped-<- what others think is why I'm thriving.

Thanks so much Nina, your reply is really helpful.   I will definitely keep this in mind as I transition.

Paige

Quote from: Nina on December 18, 2018, 06:24:45 PM
....

My therapist said, and I still believe, hormones don't make you a woman. So I believed early on not to expect miracles from HRT. What I believed from therapist, is she said living full time as Nina, gaining experience is what would help me.

....

So after 10 years, my conclusion is if you believe in yourself, surgeries are not necessary other than GCS if that's important. When I transitioned 10 years ago, I never envisioned I would have had GCS, but as time went on, it became much more important to me.

Attitude, confidence, and not giving a ->-bleeped-<- what others think is why I'm thriving.

Thanks for sharing this Nina. I find your attitude and experience really inspiring. It makes me tear-up, in a good way.

~Dee.

While we are talking about people who are unaccepting of transsexuals, I want to raise up a toast of thanks and appreciation to all of the people who are accepting, supporting, and affirming of us. 

Bravo!  Thank you!   


Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on December 17, 2018, 08:57:19 PM
Why are many people unaccepting of transsexual people?   Why is it that many people think we need to somehow "fix ourselves" so our gender conforms to the biological sex assigned to us at the time of our birth?  They must be thinking we are doing something wrong.

We just want to live our lives in our correct gender and bodies, expressing ourselves in our correct gender.  What is so wrong about that?   

Just ask these unaccepting people if they were forced to live their lives in the incorrect gender for them, could they even imagine that?  Of course not.  So why are they thinking we should be living our lives in the incorrect gender for us?


Chrissy

Primarily lack of understanding. It's not surprising - understanding being trans is difficult even for trans people on a metaphysical level. Living two lives from two different perspectives is tricky, marrying those perspectives and realities in the same life/mind are tricky, etc.

But sometimes their concern about "getting fixed" without hormones and surgery (i.e. seeing a shrink to tell you to "love yourself more" I suppose) is usually their way of caring. They see it as drastic - and it is, to be quite honest; it's a big decision I'd NEVER have seen myself making twenty years ago, or even considered it back then, and you're not just asking yourself to adjust to it but others who know you too. They ask if you are having some kind of crisis that's unrelated, or if there's anything else you can do because they too know how massive a shift and challenge it is on a basic human level, and also of course, potential risks could be guessed at. They might also worry that you'll never achieve the happiness you're aiming for, which sometimes is true for trans people.

That said, they have almost zero comprehension of the motivation for why we do it in the first place, which is often because the condition is absolutely miserable or unbearable if untreated. They assume it's a want and not a need. Or that we have a desire and not a condition.   

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on December 17, 2018, 09:32:56 PM
I do know that some non-trans females think that we as mtfs enjoyed male privilege while stuck in the male life, and although we are women, we lived as males with that privilege.  That does not sit well with some non-trans feminists.  I can understand that perspective.  Even if we say we never wanted that privilege, nor consciously exploited it, it was given to us in most societies.

However, I wish these cis-feminists would be more accepting.  But I wish everyone was more accepting of us transsexual people.

Chrissy

Women with these views as many of you are aware are TERFS trans exclusionary radical feminists.  In short we don't count as women.  I have 2 views on this.

1.  We should not delude ourselves that we are the same as cis-women.  We did not experience childhood as a girl - puberty - workplace discrimination - sexual harassment or on the other hand some positive things.  We have not lived the life of a cis-woman.

2. On the other hand any marginalized group such as women and the feminists that advocate for equality should support and stand up for the rights of any other marginalized group.  I support all LGBTQ people - black lives matter - people with physical and developmental disabilities and so on.  Those with the opinions that can be identified as believing in TERF concepts are being hypocritical of not supporting their 'adopted' sisters - us.

It's a big world and there are going to be groups of folks with just about every belief system imaginable, and a few that aren't.  A number of those folks won't like me, for one reason or another. I can't change that, and for the most part, I have no interest in changing it. Years back I went to a Michigan Women's Music festival(actually went to several). Though I shouldn't have, I felt like an outsider. Though I didn't expect it, they seemed accepting, or just didn't know. (back then I had implants and I found that folks would accept me simply because I had a couple footballs sticking out)(removed later since my skin never relaxed and I decided I just didn't want/like them.) When I think about that situation, I still feel uncomfortable as I would have expected them to be terf-like. (never heard that term, but anyway...)(late 70's early 80's) I guess I cop out of a lot of it by thinking that if I run into obstinance, I will just find a way to avoid it, and go on with my life - after all, there's what 6-7 billion folks down here...  But, yes, they are women, or so they identify. But who am I, or are they, to say, with all of the infinite variability of the gender spectra, that whom is what. Say that 5 times fast.   It happens that my belief system is such that I tell myself that if I run into an uncomfortable circumstance, I am messaging myself, or mirroring, or whatever, so I use the tools I gained along the way and balance things, or whatever, within myself. This is NOT blaming myself (to anyone who might think so) - merely accesing a chunk of my past and sorting it out.  This seems to work for me but I don't prostletize(sp?) it for others - find what works for you and do it.  Evolve. Anyway that's a ton of words that I must have been thinking about.   Hugs to all!

I was wondering that maybe some people think that they were "fooled" by trans-women into thinking they are cis-women and some of those "fooled" get upset and show displeasure and disrespect.  (This is not having anything to do with dating or sex, although I guess it applies there too.)

I would think though if they had this thought, they probably had a low opinion and respect for trans-people before they thought that they were "fooled." 

Plus this "being fooled" is in reality simply the trans-woman blending in society as a woman. 
Because we are women.  I guess they think that we are not geniune women.   

Chrissy

Closedmindedness and uneducated. Just like ethnocentrism, sexism, racism, and bigotry. Those who suffer through this marginalization know alot better.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Quote from: SonadoraXVX on January 22, 2019, 07:26:22 AM
Closedmindedness and uneducated. Just like ethnocentrism, sexism, racism, and bigotry. Those who suffer through this marginalization know alot better.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Sometimes I think they simply do not understand us, as if they need to learn to be able to understand.  Some have open minds, others do not.  Some listen, others do not.

Chrissy

It's not just cis people.  There are some trans folks that are unnaccepting of other trans folks who are not exactly like themselves.  To some people we all have to follow a preset path and ANY deviation from that is weird or odd or fake.  I get that every day.....