Quote from: Kate on April 08, 2008, 08:53:19 AM
But the difference between you and I though, is that I assume you don't want male attention? That you could just never have a man look at you again and you'd be just fine with that?
Thing is, I WANT it. I want them to like me, I want them to find me attractive and desirable. And let's face it, men are biologically programmed to spread their seed amoungst healthy (aka "sexy") females without much regard for their personality. I'm perfectly fine with that. Those instincts aren't their fault, and to insist that they behave according to more female instincts (luring strong and stable providers into creating and raising babies with them) isn't exactly fair, IMHO. We do live in a civilized and evolved society, so those instincts have been incorporated into our culture to allow us to function together fairly, but they're still THERE. Many men walk around all day simply rating women as "do-able" or not, and many women look at men as "capture-able" or not. It's the game we play, and it'll be around until the end of time.
And it's a game I WANT to play, now that I'm on the correct side finally. I DO hear you, and appreciate the warning as I'll admit that I'm as naive as a 13-year-old girl right now, all giggly and dreamy over the prospect of FINALLY being able to flaunt my femaleness with men. But for whatever reason, men are *terrified* of me, so it's hard for me to realize the gravity of your warning. So far, they've always cowered to me (or ignored me utterly), becoming oddly meek and docile when dealing with me. Which is really ashame, as I WANT to be "adorable and cute" with them, not scary. But hey, SO BE IT, if that's how they're gonna treat me, then that's what I'll work with.
~Kate~
You'd be wrong in that assumption, Kate. I adore it when men give me attention.
I'll be very honest about that. And about this: I think on some level all women do so.
Now you may, and have, said: but you're a lesbian and you have a history of assault at the hands of males. What do you mean you crave and adore their attentions? I mean exactly that.
And furthermore I'm not ashamed of it, well, not on most days.
The other day a man told me that were I not committed and he wasn't committed he'd chase me 'like a dog chases a bone.' Yep, tingly and happy and proud of that. Even in light of the last event I told above.
What makes this so? I'm not certain, but I'll tell you what I think.
I think it has to do with ingrained conditioning.
I like being attractive to other women. Another lesbian intern has expressed some attraction to me. That feels good, but not, tbh, quite as good as those remarks and suggestions from men make me feel.
But, like other women and men I would rather have attention and compliments from the 'superior' sex. For that is exactly so ingrained in me, that men are rational, objective and to be desired for compliments and what they think is important, that I fall for that as much as you do. Although our current sexual orientations are different.
You see, women 'say things to be nice.' "Women lie to remain in relationship." "Guys say whatever they really mean." "Guys' opinions are more important than are the opinions of other women, or my own." Afterall, they are the preferred sex.
I know, bullcrap. Yet, just like Simone said up there, we internalize all that conditioning and actually at very deep levels believe it. I am not different than anyone else here or elsewhere in that respect. Except that I am aware of it and sometimes realize just how silly my responses are.
Like that singer Z mentioned, I have to consciously make an effort to realize that my conditioning defines my responses to such things as attention and compliments from men.
Nichole
Posted on: April 08, 2008, 04:23:23 PM
What was the point of this thread? That we internalize 'sexual objectification' in the same way that other women do. Our needs in some ways may differ from the needs of adolescent girls and women, but in the overall they remain the same: when one has a vested interest in being 'seen' as the object of a sexual attraction then she or he applies themselves to attaining that objective.
To be 'stealth,' to attract a member of another sex to ourselves, to receive praise for how we 'are seen' becomes an over-ridingly important occupation. One we often have so deeply ingrained within us that we fail to recognize it for what it is.
We, like all people in our culture (Western) are innundated with images of what and who are 'attractive.' We long to attain that attraction and validation. Because, socially, that appears, at least, to be an ultimate attainment.
Yet, that very objectification is also the reason that we pay, sometimes, the cost of attainment in violence, degradation, depression and anxiety. If we 'pass,' if we are stealth and then outed we run a very real danger of being slain or maimed.
Is there another way? I'm not certain. We can talk about changing paradigms, but we must also look to the length and weight and speed of the 'train' we are trying to halt. That is overwhelming for the individual, less-so for a large political coalition: something like women of all sorts, GLBTs and men of understanding and dignity.
But, the force of advertising, 'reality' tv and other socially ingrained and supported uses of objectification will not quietly stop doing the things they do. There will be resistance and attacks. We will hear all sorts of dialogue about how 'useless' such projects are.
Yet, within ourselves we can make changes one at a time. But, that will also be difficult. I know this from personal experience and an inability to erase and expunge the very notions and goals that accede to such objectification within my own make-up and sense of self.
Thanks for your contributions to the thread. You all have given me things to ponder and for the most part the discussion has been polite and not given over to anger. It's led me to a line of research I had been looking for and toward a deeper evaluation of myself.
Thank you all.
Nichole
