Quote from: Sky1090 on January 05, 2019, 09:21:11 AM
... not sure how the two are the same thing but that's okay.


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Quote from: Colleen_definitely on January 05, 2019, 09:22:40 AM
Yeah I'm going to need some help with how throwing a temper tantrum in a store is in any way related to posting on a forum.

As I already said, I'm sure she wants to move on, as should we. Criticize the actions in the store, that's fine, and she should have to pay for anything that she damaged. But people here questioning her identity because she used a male voice or doesn't (in their estimation) use HRT is, to use a technical term, horse hooey.

Quote from: Sky1090 on January 05, 2019, 08:46:26 AM
This was exactly the point I was trying to make. This post has been a topic of controversy here the last few days.

To those who viewed some of the things I said as transphobic or resentful towards our community, I apologize. However, I do believe in the power of a first impression and public perception. If we expect the public to accept us and over time grow to be more accepting of us, we need to have thick skin. People suck. It's the nature of life. Throwing a temper tantrum is NOT how we fight for our rights to be equal. This leads the general public to mock, criticize and further deny our existence.

I had my first account being blatantly misgendered on Thursday. It honestly caught me completely off guard. In my opinion, I'm not the most attractive woman. I feel like I can pass in the public eye, but I feel like there are certain parts of me that "give me away."

I got off the L downtown Chicago and started heading to my therapy appointment. As soon as I left the train station, I had a gentleman promoting something for a store look me dead in the eye and say "excuse me sir, can I ask you a question?" Did I kick over his display and cause a scene? Absolutely not. I stood my ground with my head held high and with a smile replied "Excuse me sir, but do you really think I'm a sir?" He turned 4 shades of red and apologized profusely.

Point is, you get a lot more respect out of people when you treat them with respect. If you want respect, you must be respectful. Even if someone says something completely hurtful without thinking, overcome their ignorance with kindness. This is a war for equal rights, not a battle. If people in our community continue to fight battles by causing disturbances and scenes like this for the internet bullies to film, post, remix and play up to their liking, we will lose the war overall. This behavior is totally unacceptable.


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You are absolutely right about antitrans people using anything they can against us. I read the comments for that video and they were most hateful and unkind but unfortunately some of the negative comments made about this person were absolutely true. The one comment I saw over and over was that no woman would ever challenge someone to " take it outside " and that it's an extremely masculine thing to do, which I agree with. I still doubt the validity of this video but if it is genuine I have zero sympathy for this person. I've been accused more than once of making insensitive remarks about other trans people here on this site. I will admit I have made such remarks. My heart goes out to any trans person trying to live their life as best they can but I have no sympathy  for those who don't bother to make an effort. Unfortunately being gendered correctly is a hard won privilege for trans people, it takes hard work for many of us. If you don't bother to make the effort then don't go off when you get misgendered. I am not talking about how passable someone looks either. I mean doing voice therapy, learning female speech patterns and how to act like a lady. When misgendered replying " excuse me, but it's ma'am not sir" in a normal tone of voice goes much farther than yelling, cursing, threatening someone physically and kicking store displays. If you act like a man that's exactly how you will be treated. I've never been misgendered by a stranger. Only by a family member who did it deliberately. But if I was I would say " Did you just call me Sir"? Then laugh it off making the person look foolish. How you react has a lot to do with how things play out. If I acted amused at being misgendered most people would just think the person who misgendered me was stupid, confused or a little daft. But if I start yelling, throwing the F bomb around, kick over store displays and challenge the person to take it outside then people are going to think " wow, I guess that really is a guy". In my opinion the best weapon a transwoman has against abusive and ignorant behavior against her is to react gracefully and with class.

Quote from: Chloe on January 05, 2019, 08:00:16 AM
       It's called "gender-neutralism" Swedishgirl of which am a big proponent but don't agree with the language police part I get alternately 'sir' & 'ma'am' just 'bout everyday and NO BIG DEAL! It's The World that's fast moving away from "a gender binary" but not me, I take great refuge/satisfaction in keeping at bay? (edit: no contributing to) the utter confusion of modern "cis society" everyday!

Apparently, if in Sweden, I'd be a "hen"? lol Don't think so not too keen on NewYorkCity's new 'X' factor either! My BC is from Nassau County and even NY State changes are fast becoming really easy!

Well sure gender-neutralism is a nice thing. But that was not what I was preposing.

I was just criticizing this system using titles to address someone. Like sir, ma'am, Mr and Mrs and so on. It is a widespread phenomenon in this world but it's so strange and old. I'm so glad I don't have to use it. In Sweden we have abolished that since the 60's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen

Hen is just a gender neutral pronoun in Sweden. It's just a mix of han and hon (he and she). It has caused quite a big debate some years ago but not anymore. Now it's commonly used. I think its nice to use an inclusive language.

QuoteBut people here questioning her identity because she used a male voice or doesn't (in their estimation) use HRT is, to use a technical term, horse hooey.

No one has made those arguments.

I'll say it again. HRT means we can exclude the multifaceted theory of a cis actor. It doesn't mean her identity is questionable because she's not on HRT.

Not for nothing, I'm not on HRT either.

Quote from: Devlyn on January 05, 2019, 09:17:24 AM
That kinda describes posting it here, too, doesn't it?

lol goosfraba ? 'la la la laaaa la la'

The clerk was clearly apologetic and seemed sincere. In no way did he seem to be deliberately misgendering this person. It had all the appearances of an honest mistake by the clerk in my opinion. I think ignoring it is the best response, as if it didn't register when the person said it, unless it keeps getting repeated. I'd be a hypocrite though if I didn't admit that wrong pronouns or 'sir' upset me and stick with me like a bee sting for a while before I get over it. Avoiding situations like this is why we expend so much energy and resources feminizing. Sometimes, I feel worn out by it all, as this person must have been at the time. 

I have now taken damage as a result of this video.  One of my wife's uncles by marriage posted it on his Facebook page, unfortunately as I was gearing up to start publicizing my new novel on Facebook.

To clarify, I have a Facebook personal page where I am still under my deadname, in order to cover for the in laws, who are literally the last group of people I am not out of the closet to.

I maintain an "author page" under my real name where I keep my own real life and publicize my books.

Anyway the uncle's post caused a huge fight between me and my wife.  She almost made me take down my author page.  We compromised; I ended up blocking all my in laws in the U.S. (three aunts and their families, all Republicans who drink the kool aid) and keeping my author page.

This won't necessarily block them from seeing my author page but it will block them from ever finding out about it or finding out my true name if they don't already know those things.

Like I said, this trans woman, whoever she is, made us all look very bad.

Quote from: Devlyn on January 05, 2019, 08:55:08 AM
Or it could be a transgender woman, perhaps a transgender woman who will someday come to this very site looking for support and instead finding people questioning her very identity because she isn't some delicate flower expressing every stereotype of femininity on what seems to be a very bad day for her.

Frankly, some of the posts in this thread are atrocious, the amount of edits and penalties already assessed by the staff attest to that, and I will be glad if this cesspool is locked, and or preferably deleted before this woman has the chance to see the way her "community" is speaking about her. She had a bad day. The sooner she, and we, put it behind us, the better for everyone.

I agree with this. She probably needs a bit of love and understanding. Maybe somebody who listens to her and respect her. We know nothing about her and her life. Who are we to judge?

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on December 29, 2018, 10:02:48 PM
I wonder if that really is a transwoman? If so Huge Cringe Factor! Not to mention extremely bad manners.
Maybe its an anti-trans activist trying to discredit trans people?

Thanks for making us aware of this Sky!

Kirsten[emoji102]

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I have to agree.  Something about this person, just rubbed me the wrong way, they way over reacted, and the fact that someone was videoing it seems dubious too.  I just seemed overdone and a gigantic over-reaction and way over the top.  In short it just seemed inauthentic somehow.

Turns out she's real.
Her name if Tiffany Moore.

https://www.thisisinsider.com/tiffany-moore-says-she-was-misgendered-gamestop-employee-2019-1

Quote from: Janes Groove on February 06, 2019, 11:52:18 PM
Turns out she's real.
Her name if Tiffany Moore.

https://www.thisisinsider.com/tiffany-moore-says-she-was-misgendered-gamestop-employee-2019-1

Ugh. This just makes it worse, she really needs to stop bringing attention to this event. It does not paint her in a positive light and continues to provide fodder for the bigots of this world.

I think I said it earlier, we've all been there. We've all been misgendered either by accident or intention. But we own our response to that, and this was an immature, overblown and borderline violent response. If you want to do business with them and they are rude, well then you made that choice. There are many game stops.

I would not want to be a friend of this person, no matter if the person was male or female, and no matter whether it was at the times I was male, or now that I am female!

The way this person acts, is not behooving either gender!

BTW, this video clip became viral through Facebook in Thailand and here in S. Korea a week ago. I guess she was drunken or under drug influence, but hardly she can represent cis-women or S. Korean passengers. But it is embarrassing to watch this kind of video on any kind of eccentrically volatile individual. I am afraid of Korean women  There always have been many miserable people around the world, and nowadays they are more easily exposed owing to the Internet and the SNS.



barbie~~

Quote from: Janes Groove on February 06, 2019, 11:52:18 PM
Turns out she's real.
Her name if Tiffany Moore.

https://www.thisisinsider.com/tiffany-moore-says-she-was-misgendered-gamestop-employee-2019-1

There is a YouTube video of her giving an interview after it happened. She said the clerk intentionally and continually misgendered her before where the video starts and she blew up. I don't agree with how she reacted but certainly understand why.

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Ann Coulter is already using it (the story) to attack us.

She call's it "The War on Normal."  Whatever normal is.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/1093381087672311814

I watched the video and I am not all sure of what and how this event went down? My take away is that this person could use some help.

Quote from: Janes Groove on February 07, 2019, 01:41:12 PM
Ann Coulter is already using it (the story) to attack us.

She call's it "The War on Normal."  Whatever normal is.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/1093381087672311814

If you ask me, a skeletor impersonator whose main debate tactic is shrieking really isn't likely to be a good authority on normal.

Quote from: TonyaW on February 07, 2019, 10:53:29 AM
There is a YouTube video of her giving an interview after it happened. She said the clerk intentionally and continually misgendered her before where the video starts and she blew up. I don't agree with how she reacted but certainly understand why.

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Although I definitely think that she shouldn't have acted the way she did at all, I never saw this situation as black and white as it was being portrayed. I always looked at the clerk with some suspicion and wondered why it was they had to "sir" her in the first place. If you see someone like her come in who is clearly presenting feminine (no matter whether they have masculine features otherwise or not) you don't say sir. Just omit it. Good lord.

The fact that he constantly did it and made it clear it was intention just confirms my suspicions. The general public sadly looked at this video and all they saw was a trans woman who didn't pass to their standards making a big, property-destroying scene from being misgendered (supposedly innocently), but they couldn't for even one second think any deeper about it. That figures, such nuances are lost to people who are already transphobic and already predisposed to think that transgender people are just loud people who want to make a scene and love to be victimized by being misgendered from 'innocent' bystanders.

I'm not buying it, and not just because I am transgender myself. There is so much more to this.

There's an employee at my local Wawa who's misgendered me repeatedly, but I don't believe it was malicious; I'd just shaved in preparation of top surgery, which wasn't doing me any favors, and I'm a pretty flamboyant guy.

At the same time, if I'd had my full beard and was dressed in stereotypically masculine clothing (instead of androgynous pajamas), I'd have been pretty offended. In the same vein, I can't fathom why that woman was misgendered at all, much less repeatedly; if it was as blatantly malicious as she says it was, I can understand her explosive reaction. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I understand it.

I hope, for all the people using it to defame her and the rest of the community, that her speaking out about what actually happened helps. At least now, instead of cisgender people only seeing the "crazy transgender woman," they can see the truth, too. Some will ignore it, but others will learn from it—I just hope there's enough learning to make a difference.

My feelings are mixed.  I recognize that decoupling gender from biological sex is a heavy philosophical and epistemological lift for cis folks.  But it's one they should be putting in the effort to clear.  Just show some respect.  You don't have to agree in your heart of hearts, but in the public square?  Respect peoples' presentations.  The woman in question is not a mind reader.  Maybe it was accidental.  Maybe it was intentional.  Who knows? Clearly she thought it was intentional and I can see her being pissed.  But her reaction was way over the top.  Being trans and thin-skinned is not a great combination in this world, from what I can see. Fair or not, every time you're presenting as non-gender-conforming, you're carrying a banner.  She shouldn't have acted that way and it reflects poorly on the rest of us.