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Why do some of us AMAB revert to female?

Started by Lisa89125, January 25, 2019, 09:49:06 PM

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Lisa89125

After reading through the "Got my partner into transition" I have been thinking? Why do some of us revert to female? For me it's feelings that run deep within. But I am wondering now if female is the default form?

Lisa


"My inner self knows better than my outer self my true gender"

Not yet quite ready to post my real self.
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soyunachica

Tbh, I've always wondered why some people don't.

Deep within female has always been the north star/preferred state for me, even before I began to suspect I was trans when I was 12.
Preferred pronouns: She/her/hers
Preferred pet: Felis catus
Preferred operating system: Linux!!!
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GingerVicki

I've always been different and did not know that it was a possibility.
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KathyLauren

Biologically, female is indeed the default form.  A developing fetus needs testosterone to develop male characteristics.  In the absence of T, it will develop as female, regardless of chromosomes.  No E required.

What happens for those of us who are trans is that the hormonal environment in the uterus changes.  The genitals develop in the first trimester; the brain develops in the second and third trimesters.  So if T starts high and then drops, you get a trans female child.  If T starts low and then increases, you get a trans male child.
2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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GingerVicki

Quote from: KathyLauren on January 26, 2019, 07:04:01 AM
Biologically, female is indeed the default form.  A developing fetus needs testosterone to develop male characteristics.  In the absence of T, it will develop as female, regardless of chromosomes.  No E required.

What happens for those of us who are trans is that the hormonal environment in the uterus changes.  The genitals develop in the first trimester; the brain develops in the second and third trimesters.  So if T starts high and then drops, you get a trans female child.  If T starts low and then increases, you get a trans male child.
interesting.

I've read that as a mother has more male children she developed antibodies that fight against the T. So, basically each male get exposed to less and less T based on descending birth order. Hence, first-born male privilege in society.
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jkredman

Quote from: KathyLauren on January 26, 2019, 07:04:01 AM
Biologically, female is indeed the default form.  A developing fetus needs testosterone to develop male characteristics.  In the absence of T, it will develop as female, regardless of chromosomes.  No E required.

What happens for those of us who are trans is that the hormonal environment in the uterus changes.  The genitals develop in the first trimester; the brain develops in the second and third trimesters.  So if T starts high and then drops, you get a trans female child.  If T starts low and then increases, you get a trans male child.
This also could explain the statistically higher rates of trans women who were DES daughters



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Kate
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KathyLauren

Quote from: jkredman on January 26, 2019, 07:35:12 AM
This also could explain the statistically higher rates of trans women who were DES daughters
Absolutely.  DES can shut down testosterone production.  The "standard" prescription had the dosage starting low, and then increasing to truly massive doses by the end of the pregnancy.  That would allow T production at the beginning of the pregnancy, causing male genitals, and then shut it down later on, causing the brain to be feminine.

I am pretty sure that I an a product of DES, though there is no way to be certain.  The leads that I was able to follow up point in that direction.
2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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pamelatransuk

Hello Lisa

The simple answer is "Yes. Female is the Default Form".

Your very interesting question came up in November in the thread "I am female, so why is my body male" and HughE made this comment which explains why female is Default Form scientifically and I copy it below. At the end it also covers DES and confirms it may be a reason for MTF Transgender. I was born in 1955 but have no way of knowing if my mother now deceased was prescribed it during pregnancy.


QUOTE FROM HUGHE 24NOV2018:

"It goes back to before you were even born.

There's a popular misconception that the sex you develop as is determined by X and Y chromosomes. In fact, all being XX or XY does is determine whether you develop ovaries or testicles, everything from that point forward is driven by hormones. More specifically, in the presence of testicular hormones, a foetus develops as male. In the absence of those hormones, it develops as female instead (ovarian hormones aren't actually necessary for female development to occur, female development is what always happens if there are no testicular hormones present). This is easily demonstrated by a condition called Swyer's syndrome, in which the testicles of a genetically male (XY) foetus fail to develop. People with the condition look female at birth, and they grow up to look and behave just like ordinary women. Often, the condition isn't even spotted until, as teenagers, they fail to start menstruating.

The genitals undergo their development from week 7 to week 12 after conception, so by the end of week 12, you already have male or female genitals, something which can no longer change (unless you have GRS later in life of course!). The brain is different though. The early stages of brain development involve very rapid cell division (to produce the enormous numbers of cells that will ultimately make up the brain), and the migration of those cells to where their final place in the brain will be (which is often far distant from where they formed). Those early steps don't appear to have any major sex differences, so hormones during that part of brain development don't make any difference to the eventual sex of the brain.

By about week 16, the very first cells have reached their final position in the brain. Once in position, they start to grow the nerve axons that will permanently connect them to the other brain cells they're supposed to be interacting with. More and more cells reach their final position and begin to grow their permanent connections to other cells, and by week 21, the cell migration stage of brain development is over, and the main task (ongoing for the remainder of prenatal development) is the growth of nerve axons and dendrites (the "wires" that connect up brain cells), and synaptogenesis, or creating the junctions between those wires. During that time, a process of programmed cell death takes place as well, in which brain cells surplus to requirements are removed. This also appears to be the time when hormones have the biggest impact in determining the sex of your brain, so I'm guessing that there's a male way and a female way of connecting up brain tissue, which are subtly different at the microscopic level. It may be that different cells are removed during the programmed cell death stage if high levels of testosterone are present (testosterone is the main testicular hormone that drives male development), than if there's little or no testosterone there.

So, what appears to make people MTF transgender is that their testicles developed as normal and, to begin with, were producing enough testosterone for male genital development to occur. However, things then went south, and their testosterone production slowed or stopped altogether, so that during the crucial week 16 to birth period for determining whether the brain gets wired up along male or female lines, there wasn't enough testosterone present for the brain to be wired up as male. Instead, it got the patterning that happens by default, the female kind.

As to what can cause testosterone production to go wrong, any of the conventional genetic causes of intersex can. However, so can environmental factors, for instance exposure to external estrogens. Unfortunately, doctors didn't realise this, and for several decades during the mid 20th century, they were giving pregnant women high doses of an artificial estrogen called DES, a drug which acts as a chemical castration agent in men. Many of us in the older age bracket either know or suspect we were exposed to that drug. My own view is that the effect probably isn't limited to just estrogens though, and any hormones or other drugs that interfere with testosterone production in adult men will, if they're administered during pregnancy, run the risk of producing MTF transgender babies. This is a hugely controversial thing to say of course, because an awful lot of hormones and other drugs used in medicine do interfere with testosterone production!

Anyway, hopefully that answers your question. You actually are the person you perceive yourself to be, someone whose body developed along male lines, but whose brain developed along female lines instead."

So it is not even chromosomal; it is that female is default position in the absence of sufficient T.

Hugs

Pamela



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GingerVicki

I was conceived in 1977, so I do not know if it was because of my mother's fertility problems. My mother took medication to help her keep the pregnancies. Two out of 3 of us boys are transgendered. I am the only one transitioning.
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Michelle_P

In my case it was almost certainly DES exposure.  My body core, whose stem cells differentiated before about Week 10 of fetal development, is somewhat masculine.  Tissues whose stem cells differentiated past that point are somewhat feminine.  HughE's quoted text is quite correct.

My limbs, my brain all have typical female characteristics.  Several of the sexually dimorphic regions in the brain are 'typical female'.  What with being trans and all, it is handy to have a womens 9M shoe size, take a womens medium glove, medium tops and 4-6/27" pant.  There is almost no body hair (DES again...) I do have a wide chest, alas, part of my body core genetically laid down before Week 10.

I didn't so much 'revert to female' as I did 'stop trying to pass as male'.  That is how I felt my whole life, that I was faking it, not really a man.

Now I have some idea as to why.
Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit.

My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
Electrolysis - Hours in The Chair: 238 (8.5 were preparing for GCS, five clearings); On estradiol patch June 2016; Full-time Oct 22, 2016; GCS Oct 20, 2017; FFS Aug 28, 2018; Stage 2 labiaplasty revision and BA Feb 26, 2019
Michelle's personal blog and biography
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Lisa89125

Pam, Thank you. Very interesting scientific data here. Would certainly explain why there is many times as many of us MTF when compared to FTM.

I was created in 1989 but have no way of knowing what my mother might have been prescribed. I know she was under extraordinary amounts of stress while pregnant with me. I wonder if I was originally meant to be female but the hormone inbalances doing utero might have caused my current disarray of mismatched components?

Lisa


"My inner self knows better than my outer self my true gender"

Not yet quite ready to post my real self.
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jkredman

Quote from: KathyLauren on January 26, 2019, 08:07:17 AM
I am pretty sure that I an a product of DES, though there is no way to be certain.  The leads that I was able to follow up point in that direction.

I'm almost absolutely sure; based on a memory of being taken out of school one day when I was in 8th grade (roughly 1973).  My mother hauled me to Barnes Hospital / Washington University School of medicine where they did all sorts of mean things to me culminating in a pelvic exam.  (At least they were a whole lot meaner than my pediatrician was...)

It was years later, after my mother had passed and I was really struggling with my dysphoria that the light bulb turned on....


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Kate
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Rachel_Christina

Birds are the opposite, male is the default form :)


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big kim

Born in England in. 1957, DES son. Mum had a miscarriage before me. I was tall & skinny, no Adam's apple
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Linde

I pretty much can guess, why I am the was as I am (neither male nor female).  Shortly prior to my conception, my Jewish mother was released from one of the NAZI camps.  She was already married to my "Arian" dad at that time, and my paternal grandparents were able to buy her release (connections and money did even "talk" during the NAZI times).
However, she was not entitled to receive food stamps, and had to life on the meager amounts of food my grandparents could spare.  I don't know if she was "experimented" on during her time in the camps.  There was definitely gigantic hormonal imbalances getting on inside my poor mother, and I was the result.  I am diagnosed with Klinefelter Syndrome (XXY), and a whole host of other chromosomal mutations (one I like a lot is the mutation  MYH16, which prevents wisdom teeth from forming).
A genome analysis resulted in providing the information that I have the typical genetic makeup of a post menopausal female!  Yes ladies, I went through a female type of menopause!  And I did that prior to ending puberty!
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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Victoria L.

I still remember when I took biology in college and the professor taught us that the default is female. Everything he said from that point my crushed mind (which thought that there was no default gender beforehand) interpreted what was said further as "but testosterone can come in and ruin everything". It gives new light to this transgender meme that was going around years ago which stated "I survived testosterone poisoning". Lol.

If only something could have stopped the testosterone my life would have been a hundred million times simpler.  :'( Not at all to put down the struggles that ciswomen face, of course.
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