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Are women better at survival than men?

Started by MaryT, January 29, 2019, 12:12:20 PM

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MaryT

I recently watched two episodes of season one of Naked and Afraid, one set on the Serengeti and another on a Panamanian island.  Although I once ran a website with travel tips and have spent a lot of time in wild places, I am not a survival expert.  I know that a fair number of Susan's members have had real survival training, so I hope that some will venture their own opinions about some aspects of what was shown, and on my hypothesis that the female mindset may be better suited to wilderness survival than the male. 

As to the series itself, it has been accused of fakery and there were aspects of the Serengeti episode that gave me pause.  For example, one brief clip shows springboks, one of which pronked and another showed springboks,  a Southern giraffe and a greater kudu cow.  Springboks are similar to but distinctively different from the Thompson's gazelles of the Serengeti, and the Serengeti has Masai giraffes.  I think that greater kudus are not even found in that area of Tanzania.  The animal combination in that clip, plus the whiteness of the stones and soil, lead me to conclude that the clip was filmed in the Etosha area of Namibia.  However, they may be stock film clips just used for atmosphere, and irrelevant to the show.

A more significant poser was because the male contestant, EJ Snyder, apparently took three days to make fire by twirling one piece of wood on another, during which time the contestants could not boil the muddy water and could not drink.  When I was much younger I suffered from mild confusion after just a few hours of exertion and dehydration in relatively mild temperatures.  EJ and his partner Kellie were on sun drenched African plains close to the equator.   Would they have been able to function after three days in such conditions?

At the end of the episode, EJ was given a Primitive Survival Rating (PSR) of 8.2, beating Kellie's 8.1.  That really puzzles me. At the end of the Serengeti episode, he actually said that he had thought that women have their place and it definitely was not in the wilderness.  I'm sure that the army would not tolerate a buffoon as a survival instructor, so he can't be one but that was the word that kept coming to mind while I was watching and listening to him throughout the episode.  (Of course, I'm not a survival expert.)  From the start of the episode, EJ, the army survival trainer, exerted his authority over Kellie, a survivalist, bow hunter and former game warden, by bellowing and bluster, so she called him Sergeant Major.

Their first and most important task was to get to water, I understand that.  However, they knew where the water was.  EJ's attitude was that he and Kellie should focus on that "mission". 

I'll digress here.  It was once explained to me that in assessing army recruits as individuals, they might be told that their unit desperately needed fire and would be told where to find it and being back embers.  A recruit who repeatedly failed such tasks should probably not rise above the rank of private.  A recruit who successfully completed the task should at least make corporal.  A recruit who completed the task AND brought back the box of matches that had been deliberately left on the trail would probably make sergeant or higher.  In other words, focus on the mission but be observant and focused on ANYTHING that could be relevant to the mission.   Other relevant saws are "more haste, less speed" and "for want of a nail the shoe was lost, for want of a shoe the horse was lost, for want of a horse the message was lost, for want of the message the battle was lost".

EJ manfully strode towards the water.  He even had the nerve to mansplain to Kellie how to walk without getting thorns in her feet.  He became frustrated when Kellie stopped occasionally to pick up edible plants.  Kellie, you see, was looking where she was walking and knew that they would reach the water without rushing unnecessarily.  When they reached undrinkable water along the way, EJ, who was suffering from the heat himself, was frustrated when Kellie "wallowed" in the mud.  She was cooling her body and covering it with mud as a screen from the sun.  When they reached the potentially drinkable water, it was clear that EJ's feet, especially one of them, were in a bad way because of the thorns.  This in spite of his mansplaining to Kellie.  EJ was soon limping and confined to base and about halfway through the 3 weeks that they had to survive independently, he had to be temporarily evacuated for medical treatment.  MASSIVE FAIL from day one in my opinion.  If he wasn't bellowing at Kellie from frustration, he was screaming like a child from pain.  I wondered what the Tanzanian medic who treated him thought of the screams.  Traditional African coming of age rites often include boys having to endure great pain without flinching, crying or yelling.

The contestants could choose one tool each.  EJ chose a knife and Kellie chose a pan for drinking, boiling water and digging.  The tools themselves were almost male and female.  To his credit, EJ used his knife to make footwear for himself and Kellie.  If only he had done it at the START of their walk to their base.  He also made the firemaking kit.  He did not use a bow and hurt his hands during the three days it took to make fire.  He also carved a spear and a trident but they weren't shown being used with any success. 

For some time, the only food that they ate was what Kellie could forage.  They didn't seem to be interested in the lizards, scorpions, grasshoppers and termites that Ray Mears or Bear Grylls would have been munching.  EJ and Kellie went out hunting and foraging together while he could still walk.  EJ became bored while Kellie was watching antelopes from shelter.  She explained that hunting is not moving but watching and listening but EJ still stood up, spoke loudly and ruined the hunt. 

After that, Kellie had to go out alone as EJ's foot was too painful.  At one stage, EJ had persuaded the crew to leave so that he could have a private conversation with Kellie.  In spite of the fact that he was the crippled one, he basically accused her of laziness.  At one stage, it is true, she was in very low spirits, worn out, I believe, less by hunger than by EJ's browbeating.  It looked to me as though the reason EJ got the crew to leave was so that he could make Kellie cry and film her doing it.   While the crew were still away, Kellie went out foraging and returned after nightfall, showing that she could navigate in the Serengeti darkness without undue fear.  (I doubt that they were in the Serengeti National Park itself, as the danger from lions would have made such antics too dangerous by far.  Even in Tanzania, with the widest ranging lion population in Africa, lions are no longer as ubiquitous as they once were.  There were hyenas in the area but they clearly weren't in the large numbers that are sometimes found where game is numerous.  Leopards and snakes must also have been a danger.)

While persuading the crew to leave, fishhooks were seen changing hands between a crew member and EJ and I think that he and Kellie were given a hint about where to find protein.  The fishhooks were apparently not used but EJ was seen stabbing randomly into the water with his trident.  Kellie, however, sat in the water with her legs spread and sifted through the mud with her hands until she caught the first catfish.  Three were caught and if EJ caught any of them, it was not shown.

As the end of their ordeal approached, EJ did redeem himself somewhat. During the night, EJ threw through soil on Kellie's hair while her head was close to the fire.  It must have been too quick for me or Kellie to see but apparently, Kellie's hair had caught fire.  Obviously, she was very grateful.  Such a faux pas must have cost Kellie a brownie point or too but her accident was near the end of the adventure.  EJ's potentially fatal foot infection was caused by his haste on day one and led to his medical evacuation.

So what did EJ do to score higher than Kellie?  As I said, I'm not a survival expert, so I would welcome the opinions of members who have had real survival training and/or experience.

The only other episode I have seen so far was the one set on a Panamanian island.  In that, the woman was so obviously more experienced, more knowledgeable, more patient and more usefully courageous than her male partner that the powers that be had no choice other than to give her a higher PSR.  I have in the past thought that women have a better survival mindset than men.  I once took part in a team building exercise in which each team had to choose a small number of items to keep after a plane crash in the Amazon.  Women tended to choose things like biscuits and blankets.  Men tended to choose a knife, a map and a compass.  Afterwards, I would joke that after a jungle plane crash, the women would be found miserable and hungry but otherwised unharmed, near the crashed plane.  If anything of the men was found, it would just be their skeletons near a knife, a map and a compass.

So:
(1) Why did EJ get a higher PSR than Kellie after their Serengeti adventure?

(2) What do you think of the hypothesis that women are more likely to survive in the wilderness than men?





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GingerVicki

I will not try to be stereotypical, but in some ways yes. Many men try to bulldoze their way through obstacles while woman often seek more creative methods of getting things done. The average man is more likely to get seriously hurt.

On the flip side sometimes size and strength are needed and most women do not have that. Men and woman are designed to work as a team.

A transwoman in my view would have a high survival rating. An FTM could have the best chances of success out of everyone.
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Kylo

Anyone with some knowledge of actual survival techniques will probably outperform someone who doesn't regardless of gender...

I saw a show at one point on which there was meant to be a male only and a female only group endurance test on different desert islands. The female group didn't appear to get much done toward creating a camp, designating jobs and getting food. The men weren't exactly amazing either but they had a camp set up and knew how to organize themselves for tasks and get some food. But I think this might well have been down to the individual personalities involved. What if they'd got a bunch of women contestants who were all outdoors types and camping enthusiasts? Or a bunch of men who weren't? Results could have been very different.

It's very interesting how when you have a same sex GROUP of people then the sense of individual responsibility and self-consciousness any person feels is interfered with. A person alone on the island might actually get further than a group if the group is not cohesive... or you might have people waiting around for someone else to take charge (bystander effect). You might have a bunch of lazy people who aren't motivated to try hard because they know they're on a show and this isn't real survival. Then when you have a mixed sex group the dynamics also change instantly. Almost immediately men and women start taking on different tasks, usually the more physically demanding ones are taken over by men.

On the whole I think it does come down to the person's experience and training rather than their sex. I know many bigger lads than me who would not have the first clue about camping or hunting, but my father taught me a lot of useful skills and we went camping almost religiously several times a year.

What I would say is that it seems women have less interest in this sort of thing on the whole and are less likely to pursue it or test themselves with it. Actual first-hand experience of something is priceless, gives you a huge advantage for a second run.

For general survival.... does depend on the environment. Physically smaller and weaker individuals might not do so well in very cold climates, you lose heat faster when smaller. That said someone who is smaller requires less food and water. Someone who takes careful note of their own body's limitations and needs will do better than someone who doesn't. But it's important to be organized and focused as well when trying to survive.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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Lacy

Quote from: GingerVicki on January 29, 2019, 02:21:49 PM
A transwoman in my view would have a high survival rating. Any FTM could have the best chances of success out of everyone.

With what we all have to go through, every trans-person has a good chance of superior survivor(ism)!
She believed she could so she did!

The continuing story of my new life!



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GingerVicki

Quote from: RealLacy on January 29, 2019, 04:39:26 PM
With what we all have to go through, every trans-person has a good chance of superior survivor(ism)!

Humans are designed" to work together(men and women) and if someone is trans, singularly, they have a closer connection to both. Hence, can potentially function on both levels to achieve the task at hand. In this case survival.

I wonder if gender-fluid would be enough to hit the selected criterion. I believe that a case study would be interesting.
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Kylo

Wider experience, brain connected with a wider range of male/female aspects, and often physicality advantages for us.

I know I'm good with direction and navigation, spatial awareness, hand-eye-coordination, tools and making things. Also good with multitasking, memory connections, threat awareness, reading people and talking. Post transition advantage is that while not physically large I'm strong for size and have added oxygen-carrying capacity and endurance compared to before, and I don't need more than 700-800 cals a day to maintain weight. Huge disadvantage? Prolonged survival situation means no hormones and that would probably knock me right back down behind everyone else, lol.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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GingerVicki

Quote from: Kylo on January 29, 2019, 05:02:11 PM
Wider experience, brain connected with a wider range of male/female aspects, and often physicality advantages for us.

I know I'm good with direction and navigation, spatial awareness, hand-eye-coordination, tools and making things. Also good with multitasking, memory connections, threat awareness, reading people and talking. Post transition advantage is that while not physically large I'm strong for size and have added oxygen-carrying capacity and endurance compared to before, and I don't need more than 700-800 cals a day to maintain weight. Huge disadvantage? Prolonged survival situation means no hormones and that would probably knock me right back down behind everyone else, lol.

...so for longterm situations a gender-fluid non-transitioning male, in theory, should do best. It is fascinating to ponder this question.
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sarah1972

Women tend to do less stupid things. Just look at the contestants for the Darwin award  ;D ;D ;D

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GingerVicki

Quote from: sarah1972 on January 29, 2019, 05:10:03 PM
Women tend to do less stupid things. Just look at the contestants for the Darwin award  ;D ;D ;D

LOL
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Gertrude

At what? Depends on the man or woman and the situation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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MaryT

Quote from: GingerVicki on January 29, 2019, 02:21:49 PM
I will not try to be stereotypical, but in some ways yes. Many men try to bulldoze their way through obstacles while woman often seek more creative methods of getting things done. The average man is more likely to get seriously hurt.

On the flip side sometimes size and strength are needed and most women do not have that. Men and woman are designed to work as a team.

A transwoman in my view would have a high survival rating. An FTM could have the best chances of success out of everyone.

That makes sense.  In the Panamanian episode, the woman did make a bow-type firestarting device but she had to persuade the man, who was sure that it would not work, to actually use it to make fire, as she no longer had the strength herself.  It worked well.  The man also made himself useful chopping wood and carrying logs for the raft and, after overcoming his fear, helping her to hunt a cayman (he chose underwater goggles as his tool but she was the one who used them to dive for food, as he discovered that he was also afraid of sharks).
  •  

MaryT

Quote from: Kylo on January 29, 2019, 04:23:43 PM
Anyone with some knowledge of actual survival techniques will probably outperform someone who doesn't regardless of gender...

I saw a show at one point on which there was meant to be a male only and a female only group endurance test on different desert islands. The female group didn't appear to get much done toward creating a camp, designating jobs and getting food. The men weren't exactly amazing either but they had a camp set up and knew how to organize themselves for tasks and get some food. But I think this might well have been down to the individual personalities involved. What if they'd got a bunch of women contestants who were all outdoors types and camping enthusiasts? Or a bunch of men who weren't? Results could have been very different.

It's very interesting how when you have a same sex GROUP of people then the sense of individual responsibility and self-consciousness any person feels is interfered with. A person alone on the island might actually get further than a group if the group is not cohesive... or you might have people waiting around for someone else to take charge (bystander effect). You might have a bunch of lazy people who aren't motivated to try hard because they know they're on a show and this isn't real survival. Then when you have a mixed sex group the dynamics also change instantly. Almost immediately men and women start taking on different tasks, usually the more physically demanding ones are taken over by men.

On the whole I think it does come down to the person's experience and training rather than their sex. I know many bigger lads than me who would not have the first clue about camping or hunting, but my father taught me a lot of useful skills and we went camping almost religiously several times a year.

What I would say is that it seems women have less interest in this sort of thing on the whole and are less likely to pursue it or test themselves with it. Actual first-hand experience of something is priceless, gives you a huge advantage for a second run.

For general survival.... does depend on the environment. Physically smaller and weaker individuals might not do so well in very cold climates, you lose heat faster when smaller. That said someone who is smaller requires less food and water. Someone who takes careful note of their own body's limitations and needs will do better than someone who doesn't. But it's important to be organized and focused as well when trying to survive.

Very well thought out.
  •  

MaryT

Quote from: Gertrude on January 29, 2019, 11:02:44 PM
At what? Depends on the man or woman and the situation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

True.  Even if my hypothesis turned out to be correct on average, there would be no reason to presume that someone would fail or succeed based just on their gender.
  •  

MaryT

In the Serengeti episode of Naked and Afraid, EJ seemed to be concerned with proving his survival skills to be superior to Kellie's but Kellie seemed to be just concerned with proving her equality to EJ.  Is that a male/female thing?  My own (admittedly inexpert) assessment was that Kellie outperformed EJ in everything except shouting orders and making a lot of noise.  EJ seems to be a popular participant, though and by appearing in more episodes, he boosted his PSR to over 9.
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AnamethatstartswithE

I've watched that show as well. There's another episode where the man gets a dangerous sunburn on the first day, and then later gets sick drinking contaminated water. I think it may be a selection bias issue. I'm guessing that the women who volunteer for the show will want to be more sure of themselves before auditioning. Whereas the men tend to overestimate their abilities.
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Kylo

It would be interesting to see any sort of stats on survival rates for males and female when disasters strike, such as tsunamis, floods, being trapped in buildings after earthquakes and so on, just out of curiosity. I've read some truly amazing stories of survival and endurance, from both sexes. The man who had to remove his own arm with a penknife when he got trapped by rocks in a Utah canyon for six days. The woman in an isolated Mexican cabin who performed a successful caesarean section on herself to save her and her baby's life, and who had no medical training. People can be incredibly resilient.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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Colleen_definitely

It's a TV show so actual survival skills are less of a concern than attractiveness and personality conflicts which lead to on camera drama.
As our ashes turn to dust, we shine like stars...
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