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Is it just me ?

Started by KimOct, February 03, 2019, 03:55:04 AM

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KimOct

The topic of the question is regarding drag performers.  Here is why I ask the question. Regular customer where I work asks to speak to me privately and thanks me for being the reason he went to see a play called the Legend of Georgia McBride.  Plot is about an Elvis impersonator that becomes a drag queen.  The guy tells me that he would have never went if he didn't know me.  So I am polite and say I am glad I helped him be more open minded.  He meant well.  Nice enough guy.

Here's the thing - it's not the first time that someone that was well intention-ed equated me with a drag queen.  Due to the number of people on this site and the diversity I am sure there are some current or former drag performers here and I try hard not to judge anyone's life choices or preferences but I feel a bit hypocritical on this one. 

Drag shows bug me.  I feel like we are portrayed as caricatures.  Men dressed as women have been a comedy staple for many years.  Am I being over sensitive?  I would like to hear other people's opinions regarding drag performances and their effects both on our feelings and how they affect society's opinion of us.
The first transphobe you have to conquer is yourself
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Lacy

Quote from: KimOct on February 03, 2019, 03:55:04 AM
The topic of the question is regarding drag performers.  Here is why I ask the question. Regular customer where I work asks to speak to me privately and thanks me for being the reason he went to see a play called the Legend of Georgia McBride.  Plot is about an Elvis impersonator that becomes a drag queen.  The guy tells me that he would have never went if he didn't know me.  So I am polite and say I am glad I helped him be more open minded.  He meant well.  Nice enough guy.

Here's the thing - it's not the first time that someone that was well intention-ed equated me with a drag queen.  Due to the number of people on this site and the diversity I am sure there are some current or former drag performers here and I try hard not to judge anyone's life choices or preferences but I feel a bit hypocritical on this one. 

Drag shows bug me.  I feel like we are portrayed as caricatures.  Men dressed as women have been a comedy staple for many years.  Am I being over sensitive?  I would like to hear other people's opinions regarding drag performances and their effects both on our feelings and how they affect society's opinion of us.


I went to a drag show once. One of the performers was a coworker of mine. Myself and a group of ladies from work went. This was before I came out to some of my work friends.

I enjoyed supporting the performer, but felt uncomfortable with it as it does seem that most of the people I know associated it much too closely with transgender. The performer I know is a gay man and does not identify as female. Most queens I know are gay men. Obviously not all drag queens fall under that category though.

I have nothing but support for drag queens, as they should feel comfortable being themselves.
I have the same general feelings you do. I am not offended by it at all, but it is an exaggeration of the female gender. I do not wish to exaggerate in my presentation, nor do I want to be perceived as a gay man.

My friends have now been educated on the differences between the two. It has helped both myself and the queens that have common friends with me. I also explained the differences between cross dressing as well.

Unfortunately now days so much gets lumped together as the same thing, which I feel is detrimental to everyone's expression of self and the understanding received from the rest of the population.

Lacy
She believed she could so she did!

The continuing story of my new life!



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Michelle_P

@KimOct it is not just you.

I attend a church that proclaims itself to be Welcoming and Accepting, all the right stuff, and I am sure all mean well there.  Alas, there has been no actual education of the folks there for well over a decade.  So, why should that matter?

When I first showed up there, within a few weeks as folks figured out I was transgender (Bless them, even 2 years ago I passed with most of the older members!), I started getting curious responses.  Besides the misgendering confusion, I was asked "Where do I perform?", as well as folks wondering why I always appeared as female!  I have been asked if I am gay, and I have to go to great lengths to affirm that yes, I am a gay woman, attracted to other women, and not a gay male in drag.

There's a fair amount of confusion in the general population about trans folks, gender performance like drag, and related topics on gender and sexuality.  I've been working on education of folks including this congregation, and they are catching on slowly but surely.

I know a number of drag performers, mostly queens.  I would say that perhaps a quarter of the performers I know actually identify as transgender, and most of the rest are out as gay males, and identify as cisgender male when off-stage.  The two drag kings I know identify as cisgender female off-stage.  Most of these performers play with hyper-sexuality on stage, as either low comedy or in musical entertainment, singing, lip-syncing, and really good dance work.

Unfortunately, there are a few queens who do low comedy that strongly intersects with transgender identities, playing with the idea of trapping or tricking others in various ways, which reflects poorly on transgender folks and continues the false narratives about our nature and purpose in trying to be our authentic selves.

That can hurt.
Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit.

My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
Electrolysis - Hours in The Chair: 238 (8.5 were preparing for GCS, five clearings); On estradiol patch June 2016; Full-time Oct 22, 2016; GCS Oct 20, 2017; FFS Aug 28, 2018; Stage 2 labiaplasty revision and BA Feb 26, 2019
Michelle's personal blog and biography
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Harley Quinn

I used to do Drag. It is quite different from being Trans. Drag is a performance, over the top characters... a stage persona... It has nothing to do with being Trans.  I can't say that anyone is being "overly sensitive", but realizing that it is different will add perspective. Some natal women are offended by Drag shows and men too. Different things offend different people. However, performing and "being" are two very different things. Once your friend realizes what Drag is, I am sure they'll see the distinction... or you can fill them in. 

In my honest opinion, Drag Queens are amazing and ultra glam. If I use half their style prowess, my girl friends feel the need to change and up their game for lunch out with me. I can't be offended by performers, but being told by someone that "who I am" is disingenuous would give me cause to take issue with that person.
At what point did my life go Looney Tunes? How did it happen? Who's to blame?... Batman, that's who. Batman! It's always been Batman! Ruining my life, spoiling my fun! >:-)
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Maria77

I think we also have to realize that membership in the lgbtq does not automatically endow gay men, lesbians, etc., (or us!) with inate knowledge of our community.   My best friend of many years is a part of the  "Bear" community and I don't get some of their fashions, but have met a lot of great people.   When folks would ask me about "performing" I would make a joke and they would "get it."   I also really respect the Queens because they are the fund raisers of the lgbt community.  Also, because of the often hyper masculine emphasis in the gay male world, a lot of DQs have dating problems not unlike our own.   Even though we are often coming from different areas of the gender spectrum there are often areas of overlap.
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Linde

Quote from: KimOct on February 03, 2019, 03:55:04 AM
Drag shows bug me.  I feel like we are portrayed as caricatures.  Men dressed as women have been a comedy staple for many years.  Am I being over sensitive?  I would like to hear other people's opinions regarding drag performances and their effects both on our feelings and how they affect society's opinion of us.
I have the same feelings about this, you have.  We have worked so hard to get to the point at which we are, and gained a little acceptance of the general public, and along come the drag queens!  Making everything to look like a joke and a charade!  Making the public to believe that we are rally the weird people some want believe we are.
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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KathyLauren

Quote from: KimOct on February 03, 2019, 03:55:04 AM
Drag shows bug me.  I feel like we are portrayed as caricatures.

I agree with you.  Drag performance is a caricature, and since we are the targets of the caricature, even a good show is subtly insulting. 

I went to one drag show at Pride Week last year because the performer was someone I know and like.  He did a good job - he is very talented - but that didn't take away the bitter taste.

Regarding your friend who commented on the play, I would have added that I am not into drag myself, just to give the perspective that drag and trans are different.
2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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TonyaW

I think the issue is more public ignorance of what being transgender is rather than  anything inherent to drag.

As Harley said, drag is over the top, part of the point being to stand out, which makes it highly visible. Drag queens also seem to get a disproportionate amount of air time in the standard 2 minute blurb on the local  nightly newscast acknowledging Pride festivals and parades. That visibility and the general publics lack of trans awareness make a lot of people see us both as men playing dress up.

As an example,  my brother was at my dad's house when my dad got my coming out letter. (I had mailed it 2 weeks earlier, but I guess my dad doesn't pick up his mail every week even.)  Among the the things that my brother told me my dad said was that I had "better not show up there looking like a ->-bleeped-<- drag queen".  Plenty of reference material included with my letter so had he read them and/or wanted to understand, he would have known the difference.




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Janes Groove

I'm okay with drag.  I see it as an art form. I love art.  Art is supposed to make people feel uncomfortable and question their assumptions.  As such drag succeeds wonderfully.
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KimOct

Well I am glad it's not just me.  As for drag performers I certainly don't hold it against them personally.  And yes I do know that the majority of them are gay cis men.  What makes me uncomfortable is primarily two things.

The entire comedic / caricature aspect of men dressed as women.  The other is that lack of awareness of the general public does cause them to conflate transwomen with drag queens.  This is true with well meaning people also.  When I first saw an acquaintance after going full time she was very nice and accepting but even in the initial conversation she asked if I perform OMG.  I tried to explain the difference but she was so busy trying to convince me how accepting she was that I don't think any of what I said sunk in.

I have been 3 times in my life.  The last time was an accident.  An accident you ask? LOL.  Yeah some friends were going to an event billed as transgender artists.  I thought it was artwork such as paintings etc.  LMAO  I am an idiot.

I really try to go by the philosophy of to each their own and live and let live.  I have noticed though that since transitioning I have become more empathetic to the feelings of other marginalized people - black lives matter - the rest of the LGBTQ community - women's rights - the me too movement etc.  At the same time it is important to not take ourselves too seriously no matter who we are and everyone should be able to laugh at themselves.  It is a fine line to walk sometimes.

I guess at the end of the day I will never care for drag but I will try not to condemn those that enjoy it or participate.  Just don't ask me to sit down and watch RuPaul with you.  ;D

You know what? = I read this again after posting and decided that I am being a little too nice about it.  I did not edit anything above because I meant it and yet I am of two minds on this.  I don't want to have a persecution complex and take everything too personally but I thought about it a little more.  In the 3 shows I have attended and the little bit I have seen on TV or at gay pride etc - it really is kind of offensive.  I know I am contradicting myself but it is because I have conflicting feelings on the subject.  That is probably why I posted this topic.
The first transphobe you have to conquer is yourself
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Linde

Quote from: KimOct on February 03, 2019, 08:07:19 PM
I have noticed though that since transitioning I have become more empathetic to the feelings of other marginalized people - black lives matter - the rest of the LGBTQ community - women's rights - the me too movement etc. 

............- it really is kind of offensive.  I know I am contradicting myself but it is because I have conflicting feelings on the subject.  That is probably why I posted this topic.
I was always very sensitized about anything that goes to the heart of minority groups.  My mother was jewish and a prisoner in one of the NAZI camps (my intersex symptoms might be the result of experiments done to her, who knows, she never talked about it).  Anyway, when I see actions that marginalizes any minority group, or makes fun of them, I see red flags all over the place!
And drag queens make fun about me and similar people, and instill the negative image about us into the general public!
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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TonyaW

No way should a drag show have billed itself as "transgender artists", even if all the performers were trans.

Not a fan of Drag Race either. Way too over the top for me. 

I don't want to defend it because I'm  not sure really what the point of drag is.
We suffer from and are at least somewhat marginalized by the public's association with drag to trans, but I don't think the purpose of drag is making fun of trans women.


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IAmM

For us it may seem unfortunate because it does get more than it's share of coverage and most probably don't know enough about anything trans to see the distinction between us and them.

It has not one thing to do with us or caricature, it's about performance and glam. It's about them and something that they enjoy doing and people enjoy watching. It is art and as far as art goes, it is usually pretty fun and energetic.

I say seems unfortunate because they are not really talking much bad press right now even though they are taking the lion's share of the visibility at events. Those are events and people don't usually see them in their day to day lives We are the ones that are sitting across from them on the bus, in line at the store or pumping our gas across from them. My opinion is that the extremely loud opposition is very small and they don't care, they just want someone to hate. Most people will judge us by who we are, what we do as individuals, what we show the world of ourselves.

No matter how I look at it I can't see them as a problem at all. Tolerance can't hurt and being uncharitable usually does hurt someone. I always am amazed at how much intolerance is in the world.

This will sound harsh, I don't want to let this go though and I apologize for the tone.

It's not all about you, or in this case us. I don't see it as a caricature at all but I promise you that if it is, it has never been about us. My grandma complained about a drag sow she saw in 1947 or something like that, and did I want to be like those men. That is what you want to be like, all of those men pretending to be women? It is not about us and when we make it so in our heads it comes across more as our own insecurities. They are not making fun of us or anyone, seems to me they spend more time poking fun at themselves. Enjoy it or not but please don't make it about us.
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KimOct

As with most issues I see shades of grey on this one.  Regarding IamM thoughts - I can understand that position to some extent and as I said several times I don't want to have a persecution complex.  Also I don't think drag performers are targeting us.

But I do think that there is a comedic element to the fact that they are crossdressed.  Otherwise it would be the same as any other lip sync or singing or stand up comedy performance.  The fact that they are crossdressed has meaning in the context of the performance.  It is part of the comedy. 

If my tone is not getting across correctly I am not arguing with IamM and I actually see some degree of merit in the points made but at the end I must say that I do find it hurtful whether it is intended or not.
The first transphobe you have to conquer is yourself
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StacyRenee

Well... I wasn't expecting this topic to be so polarizing. I think something that has escaped many of us, is the fact that many of the first drag shows were done in a way as to showcase early trans women. They were known as "Balls", as in ballroom.

We may have heard the names Marsha P. Johnson and Silvia Rivera as being the the mothers of the trans revolution. Stonewall riots became known as the start of the gay revolution because they weren't seen as transgender (since the word wasn't coined yet), but rather as gay men.

As I grew up in suburbia, I knew nothing about these things. I felt obliged to take the time to learn about them. I highly suggest watching "Paris is Burning". (Hint:. Vogueing actually originated from the Ball Scene.)

Drag shows grew from those Balls. Gay men that weren't trans saw how much fun it was to dress feminine and perform that they too wanted in on it.

One question that I got from a co-worker was "Do you do drag?" I then explained that drag was just a performance art that was done mostly by gay men. Then I explained that I just wasn't that creative.

I don't find drag shows offensive. As the saying goes, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." But when RuPaul said that trans women had no business doing drag, that was shocking. He needs to learn his history!

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KimOct

You see - another good point made in the opposite direction  :D   Yes that is true - early drag shows were done by trans pioneers and of course the Stonewall incident and resulting movement were huge in LGBT history.  So again I can see the other side.  But I still end in the same place - kind of hurts my feelings. 
The first transphobe you have to conquer is yourself
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Michelle_P

Early on, drag was one of the few outlets for what we now call transgender women.  "Morals laws" prevented living as one's authentic self, subjecting us to arrest should someone notice that we were wearing clothing inappropriate for our gender assigned at birth.  Law enforcement was particularly harsh on those of us who favored a feminine appearance.

There were some places where we could be seen on the street and not be immediately busted.  In San Francisco, we were 'permitted' north of Market and west of Polk, east of Stockton, the neighborhood called "The Tenderloin".  Police wouldn't hassle us so often there.  In 1967-68 we could also be in the Haight-Ashbury neighborhood, but that became unsafe in 1969-70, with police 'cleanup' sweeps.

At 14 I discovered that if I gave the bus driver an extra dime, I could ride all the way into San Francisco.  In 1967, that was quite the experience.  I wore my boots and flare pants, and in the SF bus terminal I'd change my top to something a bit more Bohemian and brush out my hair, another 14 year old hippie chick running around the city.  Then I'd head off to visit new friends over at Taylor and Turk St, or out near the Panhandle at Haight & Ashbury.

I was busted on a 'morals charge' in 1969, for a top that buttoned the 'wrong way', after being picked up in a sweep to get those damn hippie kids off the street.  The parents were informed, and hilarity ensued.

Most of the older trans women in the Tenderloin seemed to be either drag performers or sex workers.  One auntie there took me under her wing and gave me some pretty strong life-altering advice, to avoid the drugs and the sex work, and try as hard as I could to make my way in life on my own terms.  Her language was more colorful than that...

Drag has evolved over the years.  As trans women became more acceptable in daily life, fewer have done performance work as an outlet for themselves, I suspect.  Some of us were able to make it in life without the relative risks of sex work, although that remains relatively common in our population.  (Sex work is work; hard, a bit risky, but something that has been honorable through much of history.  Debating this is a topic for another thread, though.)

As performance, drag is a theatrical play on sexuality and gender, and relies on hyper-sexual interpretations.  For better or worse, the public has confused drag gender performance and daily gender presentation, and for trans women has splashed some of that drag hyper-sexuality onto our image in the public mind.  That causes us some additional problems.

I think many of us have had THAT experience, disclosing to some person only to have their responses to us shift from friendship or dating interest over to an aggressively sexual response and desired interaction.  That is the unfortunate result of the femme drag hyper-sexuality coloring the image of transgender women.  This isn't the fault of drag, or drag performers, but an indication of the lack of education on sex and sexuality with the public.

Our particular culture is relatively repressive and denies the need for education on sexuality, and I feel that it is the deliberate ignorance imposed on the population that leads to many of our problems.  The confusion with drag, and the hyper-sexuality issues in particular come from that ignorance.

I'll just get off my soapbox now...
Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit.

My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
Electrolysis - Hours in The Chair: 238 (8.5 were preparing for GCS, five clearings); On estradiol patch June 2016; Full-time Oct 22, 2016; GCS Oct 20, 2017; FFS Aug 28, 2018; Stage 2 labiaplasty revision and BA Feb 26, 2019
Michelle's personal blog and biography
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KimOct

I am glad I brought this topic up.  There is obviously a great deal of difference of opinion.  Michelle demonstrates a knowledge of things first hand that rings very true to me from reading and watching documentaries.  I am only 7 years younger than her but I lived in Chicago and San Francisco was ( and still is ) a very different culture.

Although we all share the experience of being transgender we are all not cut from the same mold.  Our life experiences have shaped us and we have different personalities and greater or lesser sensitivities.

I do think that the issue of gender variance and comedy is a complex one and walking the line between comedy & entertainment  vs.  negative societal influence is a blurry line. 
The first transphobe you have to conquer is yourself
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IAmM

I can see a that there is a difference of culture. Sometimes it feels like ther is always a difference of culture. :) Not a bad thing, just a thing.

This is the worst thing that I will ever say here, seriously forgive me I hate that I am saying it but...

Put on your big girl panties. They are performers! Everyone loves SNL as long as they are crucifying Trump but no one wants the spotlight put on them. One group dares to make light of us and it is the end of the world. Truthfully they may be the only group that can make light of us in our culture, in this country today and get away with it. I am almost more angry with this pc culture than Trump at this point and that is saying a lot.

Where I live it is a small group with a small dedicated following. I won't lie, they are amazing here, they always answer when someone is doing any charity. I have never seen them make fun of anyone that is not in direct opposition of lgbt rights and then very little. I guess that I don't understand what you are talking about after all. They have such a passion for their art and they are so enjoyable, I guess that I never imagined that there were some that were not exactly what most would call decent.

I want to delete what I have wrote so bad. If they are making fun of us, show me. What I have seen are people enjoying the freedom of being who they are. That love people appreciating them in the feathers and glitter completely femme and playing the croud. That is just the males.

Is it inconvenient for us, yeah maybe. Ever go out to dinner with a bunch of girls that are not yet passing very well? When you are passing you know that it may give you away and I hope with all of my heart that you do it anyway. If you are pointing to a specific performer that is targeting trans people that is one thing, if not then you are just afraid that someone is going to see who you are because of the girl eating next to you. They have eaten the same meal we have to a large degree, dealt with the same ->-bleeped-<-ty waiter, want to split the check that should be cool, pretend that you don't know them or that somehow we are better, that is kinda scary. The fact that people in our marginalized group are pointing to another marginalized group as victimizers already scares the crap out of me.
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Devlyn

Quote from: KimOct on February 03, 2019, 03:55:04 AM
The topic of the question is regarding drag performers.  Here is why I ask the question. Regular customer where I work asks to speak to me privately and thanks me for being the reason he went to see a play called the Legend of Georgia McBride.  Plot is about an Elvis impersonator that becomes a drag queen.  The guy tells me that he would have never went if he didn't know me.  So I am polite and say I am glad I helped him be more open minded.  He meant well.  Nice enough guy.

Here's the thing - it's not the first time that someone that was well intention-ed equated me with a drag queen.  Due to the number of people on this site and the diversity I am sure there are some current or former drag performers here and I try hard not to judge anyone's life choices or preferences but I feel a bit hypocritical on this one. 

Drag shows bug me.  I feel like we are portrayed as caricatures.  Men dressed as women have been a comedy staple for many years.  Am I being over sensitive?  I would like to hear other people's opinions regarding drag performances and their effects both on our feelings and how they affect society's opinion of us.

I'm not sure you were being equated with a Drag Queen anywhere but between your own ears. The old saying "You can't control others, but you can control your reaction" comes to mind.

I guess I'm fortunate to have friends who can clearly see that dressing as a woman, and dressing as a Queen are two wildly different things.

I've never met a Queen I didn't like. They "get" us, and they understand that for us, the identity stays on 24/7, and they know we don't have an easy path.

Hugs, Devlyn
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