I wanted to start off this post by saying that I have been questioning my gender identity for quite some time, but I'm not quite ready to be fully "out" as trans. I know there is a lot of things I will need to do in order to "pass" as my preferred gender (hair removal, legal changes among those), and I cannot yet take these steps. I'm also extremely scared of discrimination so until I pass I would like to stay as under-the-radar as I am able to given the constraints written below. And this is a bit off topic, but even after transition I would like to remain fairly stealth, so I'm scared about things that ask for previous names and the sort; I've heard about writing in something like "available to authorized investigator only" if you are asked such a question, but I don't know the extent to which the confidentiality of that is respected in the US (I know the UK has the "sensitive" process for DBS government background checks, and I don't know if I might be able to at least try to emulate that process post-transition on US background checks by contacting the investigating agency directly).


I am going to be entering the job market pretty soon. I am a college graduate with a bachelor's degree (B.Sc. Psychology) and I will also have a web development certificate as well. I know if I go into the IT field that professional attire is usually not on the same level of formality as with other corporate jobs in many cases, but this is not always the case either. So let's assume that I will be going into a position where either a more formal level of business casual, or even business professional attire is the norm.

I have noticed plenty of professional clothing from women's stores that appear fairly masculine or gender-neutral. Out of respect for my true gender identity I would like to buy as many clothes from women's stores and women's departments as I can, this will also be handy post-transition as well. Some of the items that I thought would fit this criteria include pantsuits (especially) and some blouses that closely resemble "men's" dress shirts. I had heard about at least one pre-transition transgender woman who had bought all of her "men's" clothing from the women's section of a department store (with the obvious exception of neckties, in my case I would also include shoes due to large feet). I read about this from some published website but I just don't remember where, if I did I would give you the link. In more casual settings there is definitely a degree of androgyny I could embrace, but business professional attire is quite heavily binary-gendered so I figure the above approach may help me to "androgynize" or "feminize" the usual "masculine" attire.


I'm also wondering about the extent to which I could get away with some feminine accessories and grooming in a professional setting, including clear nail polish, foundation makeup, eyebrow shaping, wearing pantyhose for socks, among others. I do not like long hair so that is out of the question (should I transition I will probably stick with a pixie cut or something).

I'm aware of other strategies such as underdressing and so forth, but this is really going to be the only thing that would keep me sane in a professional setting. I can deal with avoiding some more feminine grooming and accessories as long as I feel fairly feminine in the clothes I am wearing and the clothes I see in the mirror. I am worried about some of the clothes having a weird fit, which I know will happen in many cases, but this is about the only thing I feel I can do until I feel ready to transition.


If anyone has any suggestions, including suggested brands of clothing, please let me know.

I underdressed for a long time.  However, anything more overt runs the risk of being detected.  If you are concerned about discrimination, I would think the discrimination might be worse if you are detected as being gender-nonconforming than if you just came out and transitioned openly. 

I don't live where you live, so my perception of the risks will be different from yours.  Obviously, you have to go with your own judgement.  But I would be surprised if the risks are as high as you are suggesting, even in the U.S..  Most large corporations have protections in place, even if there are no legislated protections where you live.

I can't think of a better strategy than the one you have suggested: wearing clothes purchased from the women's side of the aisle, that pass for men's clothes.

Yes, department stores are good for what you want.  Avoid Forever 21 if you want to look professional.

I have a ton of experience with this as I'm size 2/XS, which translates to about XXS for men's, which doesn't really exist. For tops, trying going up a size, but beware of "vanity sizing," which means sizing can be wildly inconsistent.  Men's sleeves are longer than women's.  Which is why I like women's clothes, as they fit me perfectly.  I go up two sizes for shoes.  Size 7 instead of size 5.  Just about any style for men has a women's version if you look hard enough. 

You also have your choice of form fitting clothes.  Boyfriend cuts may be what you want.

For me, the thrift store works great, because GGs usually donate mint condition XS/S clothes because their diets failed and they coudn't fit into their clothes. 

Lately I'm been buying clothes on Amazon because I can choose exactly what I want at great prices, as XS/S clothes are the last to sell out.  And, I've learned to read the product reviews to get opinions from GG and properly interpret them, which may not work as well for many crossdressers.

You should study a what to wear book to find out what would look good on your body size and shape.

Finally, the buttons are on the wrong side, so someone with a sharp eye may notice. I have seniority at work so I don't care about that.  My work waits for my return when I'm on my vacation, which is quite generous in the number of days I get and the flexibility I have in taking it.

Quote from: KathyLauren on January 22, 2019, 06:01:04 PM
I underdressed for a long time.  However, anything more overt runs the risk of being detected.  If you are concerned about discrimination, I would think the discrimination might be worse if you are detected as being gender-nonconforming than if you just came out and transitioned openly. 

I don't live where you live, so my perception of the risks will be different from yours.  Obviously, you have to go with your own judgement.  But I would be surprised if the risks are as high as you are suggesting, even in the U.S..  Most large corporations have protections in place, even if there are no legislated protections where you live.

I can't think of a better strategy than the one you have suggested: wearing clothes purchased from the women's side of the aisle, that pass for men's clothes.

I'm in Texas, so I am a bit more scared than someone in California or New York would be.  That said, would wearing a women's pantsuit or a blouse resembling a dress shirt really be that overt?  My attitude is that a suit is a suit, but I know the cuts are different.  As long as the differences are at least somewhat subtle I don't really see why not. I would be way more comfortable in a "feminine" cut anyways.  Besides, it would make me feel a whole lot better to know that at least I am wearing something gender-affirming even if I am wearing those clothes in a manner that is calculated to look like another gender's attire.

I know there is some risk of being detected with this strategy but I'm planning at looking at more liberally-minded employers anyways, to the extent that I am able to.  If I do get detected and they are fair-minded, I could then go ahead and explain my transition plans, though HR (or some trusted entity within the company) would probably already be in the know on my plans if company-level protections exist. 

The main reason I am taking this approach is to try and reduce discrimination during the hiring process (when it is harder to prove), but to try and balance this need with my greater comfort and confidence level when I am wearing feminine clothing.  Like you said there is some chance of getting detected though, it just depends on how subtle the clothes are I guess.  If it's too subtle I risk feeling a bit less confident, but if it's not subtle enough then I risk discrimination.  Oh well, women get these types of contradictory messages in the workplace all the time, I guess it's better to try and learn to deal with this if I really want to be a woman.

Quote from: Maid Marion on January 22, 2019, 06:31:12 PM
Yes, department stores are good for what you want.  Avoid Forever 21 if you want to look professional.

I stopped shopping at F21 quite sometime ago, I got a few things there when I was in college and first questioning my gender but that was it, I've pretty much "aged out" of that store.  Most of my obviously women's attire now is from WHBM, though their clothes are way too femme for what I am trying to do here.  I've seen a few androgynous things in their catalog that I like though, but once I can transition WHBM is pretty much fair game and more in-line with my femme style (whether casual or professional).  I'll definitely start looking more at department stores though (Nordstrom is one of my favorites, though some things are a bit pricey).

Nordstrom has in-house tailoring services, which can go a long way toward looking professional.

Which is why I started wearing women's clothes, as there was no way for me to put together an age appropriate work outfit otherwise.  A couple years ago Peter Manning showed up, but his clothes are expensive and don't fit me as well as women's clothes off the rack. 

@BC    cc:  @KathyLauren   @Maid Marion
Dear BC:
You recieved terrific advice from both KathyLauren and Maid Marion ... be sure to digest what they have stated.   

Every body is different and the clothes sizes, especially in women's selections, can vary widely because of tighter/looser fit, materials, sleeve length, inseam length, etc.

For me, I found that important first steps are to attempt to narrow down your sizes on various types of clothing... tops, pants, shoes, etc.  This is most easily and economically done in the fitting rooms at department stores and also thrift stores.   
Once you get the sizes halfway nailed down then, if you desire, you can browse the internet for wide selections and perhaps save some expense.   
However, for me, I almost never order online, I like to try clothes on and explore the fit, look, and feel before I pull out my credit card.... and also not mess with the hassle of returning online orders.

Wishing you well with your journey.
Danielle

Depending on your measurements women's pants and shirts should be fine, pantsuits may work as well, though unless you are a trial lawyer, not many people wear suits regularly anymore. One thing to keep in mind is that women's pants have pockets that range from useless to nonexistent. Most women carry handbags, but I'm guessing you won't. It's something to consider.

Also in terms of avoiding detection, I wouldn't worry about that. Unless you grow DDs overnight on hrt people aren't going to think about whether or not you're trans, since that's on most people's radar. Most likely you would just have rumors that you were gay.

I just wanted to say to all of the posters here that I really appreciate your tips!  They are more encouraging than I thought they would be, especially given the heavily gendered nature of professional and business attire.

Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 22, 2019, 10:03:32 PM
Depending on your measurements women's pants and shirts should be fine, pantsuits may work as well, though unless you are a trial lawyer, not many people wear suits regularly anymore. One thing to keep in mind is that women's pants have pockets that range from useless to nonexistent. Most women carry handbags, but I'm guessing you won't. It's something to consider.

Also in terms of avoiding detection, I wouldn't worry about that. Unless you grow DDs overnight on hrt people aren't going to think about whether or not you're trans, since that's on most people's radar. Most likely you would just have rumors that you were gay.

I am totally aware of the issue of some women's pants not having pockets, as I own a few pairs of pants with no pockets.  One of my favorite pairs of WHBM pants has small pockets (and for that particular brand, that's more than usual, and that's why I bought that pair!).

I guess I could look into a briefcase or something similar to use like a handbag if I absolutely had to.

And except for a job interview I doubt I would be wearing a suit too often anyways with most of the jobs out there.  Though if I did have the opportunity to wear one on-the-job in a standard business casual environment I would wear it without a necktie (much like the standard female business professional pantsuit look without accessories), but even that could be a bit overdressed.  It's a bit easier to look overdressed for business casual during the cool season when more people are wearing layers though.

Well, it's not a professional setting persay, but I'd like to think that maybe the situation is similar. I just graduated from university as a music major and played in the Wind Ensemble, and with the instrument I play I was on the front row every time. Again, this wasn't professional, but music ensembles whether professional, amateur, or educational are all stuck in this rut of very binary formal wear. I've - much to my dismay - been forced to wear tuxedos for some ensembles and it has really depressed me. However, this time my band direction *wanted* to force men (and poor pre-transition women like me) to wear them, but he seemed to skirt around the issue and in the end he stopped even talking about it.

That's tangential, though, so lets to get to my point. The concert attire was what I've been used to in most band ensembles I have played in, something called "Concert Black". In the years since I've gotten my own job and money I became more brave and decided to gradually try replacing everything with women's wear, even though it's incredibly subtle. My "Concert Black" attire eventually became a target. I regularly wore black pants at my workplace which I had solidly transitioned over to women's, so I carried those over (larger sized ones, though, because of the awful tucking in thing), and ended up buying a button up black shirt much like those that men normally wear for concert black. And... having worn it for probably like four years for concerts, I have never received a word from anyone.

My strategy has always been to buy "too big", though... So that shirt is a bit larger than I would normally wear, but the look and feel of it is still significantly different from men's button up shirts. And one thing to take note of is that women's and men's shirts have buttons on the opposite side of shirts. I have no clue what this is all about or where I learned about it, but it is something to be cautious of. Anyone who knows this fact and pays too much attention will notice it. But I don't think that people do pay that much attention or if they do they don't seem to care. Although it is important to understand that I come from a perspective of non-professional ensembles and not a professional job. I'm aware that things could be different there... Although if I were going into a professional job, I'm certain I would try my hardest to pull the same thing off because wearing men's formal wear gives me too much dysphoria and I can't do it period.

Quote from: Virelai on January 25, 2019, 11:38:07 AM
And one thing to take note of is that women's and men's shirts have buttons on the opposite side of shirts. I have no clue what this is all about or where I learned about it, but it is something to be cautious of. Anyone who knows this fact and pays too much attention will notice it. But I don't think that people do pay that much attention or if they do they don't seem to care.

The side that the buttons are on just seems like such a trivial issue to me that I just feel it should be a non-issue.  At least on shirts you would have to look pretty hard once they are buttoned up.  Jackets might be a bit trickier but I normally take an "IDGAF" attitude towards that kind of stuff... heck I've worn a women's blazer, my mom thought it looked good on me, and she didn't seem to think it was a women's one (interestingly enough this blazer was designed with the lapels turned inwards, which is a style normally only seen on women's blazers).

I'm going to go ahead and bump this topic since I've been thinking about this a bit more lately.

In terms of shirts/blouses, I was thinking something along the lines of this Theory shirt or even this one from Lafayette 148.  These are very expensive and as such would not be my first choice (though if I am investing in a professional wardrobe and if I can afford more expensive items I might consider some items from the some of more expensive brands for quality reasons); they are just examples of the type of clothes I would like to wear in a business setting.  This would be another example that is a little less expensive (though still pricey, it is well within the range of what I am willing to pay for a shirt unlike the other two examples). 

Some of the items I would want to wear would be due to their incorporation of "feminine" fabrics (including silk, which is expensive and fairly feminine on anything aside from a necktie) and/or minor details.  Mainly I'll want to look and try things on in a store to check for fit and to see that some details are not simply decorative (eg. with buttons, as the shirts will need to button all the way up to the neck in order to incorporate them into "masculine" attire in some settings, as well as pockets on items that appear to have pockets); thus, I won't be blindly buying stuff online here.

I know with fabrics like silk (especially if it is fairly shiny and in a bright color, a shiny white/light color might be okay though) there is a chance that it would be perceived as gender non-conforming on anything other than a tie, but for me I feel I need to balance the desire to feel "feminine" with the need to appear sufficiently "masculine," and that I feel okay when I see myself in the mirror (meaning that the externally-visible clothing will need to be at least somewhat androgynous, so simply underdressing won't really cut it for me here).

I also haven't thought too much about pantsuits either, but I'm basically trying to come up with a somewhat-male "business professional" look composed almost completely of women's items (aside from neckties and perhaps shoes).  I realize many professional workplaces don't require suits anymore, but I'm just trying to start with the most binary-gendered professional attire possible (for the worst-case scenario and for interviews) and work my way down into "business casual" territory from there.  I'm going to see about the personal shopping services at Nordstrom and see if they would be of any assistance; I guess I'm just scared that my desires will be seen as somewhat "weird" (trying to make a professional "male" look from women's clothing), but I've been treated with nothing but respect when I've bought obviously feminine items in the past, so I should have nothing to fear.

If I'm going to have to be in the closet for a time in order to have a good career I might as well make sure I can feel like "myself" to the greatest degree possible, and this seems like it would be the way that I would feel the most comfortable while still staying fairly close to the "masculine" norm.

Something like Kohl's Apt 9 brand may be more appropriate to what you need.  Check out the discount racks, I just saw some nice stuff at 80% off, $40 down to $8, but my workplace is too casual for those shirts.

I have a shirt quite similar to what you linked in your last post and nobody said anything about it but I didn't wear it that much. I work as a software engineer and we don't have a dress code in our office fortunately.

I'll copy one of my relevant posts here:

Quote from: Lynne on December 28, 2018, 09:00:37 AM
I'm only presenting as female outside of work, at work I try to aim for a more andro look until I feel ready to go full-time.

These are the things I 'get away with'**:

- women's underwear and pantyhose if the weather gets colder
- only women's clothing, of course nothing really fancy, but if anyone takes a closer look they can see they are not male clothes
- only women's shoes, same as clothes, nothing fancy, mostly more elegant leather sneakers, some with hidden 2.5 inch wedge heels
- long, dyed hair, at the moment mostly to cover gray hair but people must have noticed that gray hair just vanishes from my head from time to time...
- longer than usual(for males) and shaped nails, painted with clear nail polish, toes painted with colored nail polish(not visible)
- no facial hair and mostly no hair anywhere on my body but only my arms are visible at work
- carefully shaped eyebrows so they look a little better


**: getting away with it means that people don't bring up these things but they are not stupid or blind either so I'm sure they know something is up

There are quite a lot of male fails, people, who don't know me often assume that I'm a female even when I'm not really trying to present as one, but as I wrote above, I'm not going for the male look either in these cases, so that's understandable.

Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 22, 2019, 10:03:32 PM
Most likely you would just have rumors that you were gay.

I get that quite a bit because I'm more of a "soft" person caught in between male and female presentation wise. Inside I'm all woman mind you!

Sophia

Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 22, 2019, 10:03:32 PM
... though unless you are a trial lawyer, not many people wear suits regularly anymore...

Funny you should mention that because there is a woman here who happens to be a trial Lawyer in the Los Angeles area, she's one of a few trans trial Lawyers (she stated)

(P.S)...I always like your posts Ms. AnamethatstartswithE!!

I'm totally willing to have people think I'm gay, though; sadly people tend to discriminate against that much less than transgender people, including at the hiring stage.  And it sucks.  I just wish all the discriminators would just keep their beliefs to themselves and not let them get in the way of their judgment (I have much worse I could say about "those people," but I don't want to be wishing ill will on anyone either).

Once I get my foot in the door somewhere that is trans-inclusive, I can transition.  Or even get to a point in my career where many women wouldn't get (such as trying to get above one of those "glass ceilings") first.  But until then, I have to do something to stay at least somewhat comfortable in my own skin.  It would also be hard for me to just feel satisfied with simply underdressing, since wearing something external (even if it is just fairly "masculine" styled women's clothes) would further affirm my identity and at least make me feel less like I'm "hiding" something.  I just want to be able to prevent "unconscious" discrimination when interviewing at a pro-diversity-minded business, to the greatest degree that is possible with the aforementioned clothing.  And in the off-chance I have to wear "business professional" clothes on the job, I would also have somewhat gender-affirming clothing (in that they were made for women) even if I can't accessorize the clothes in a "feminine" manner.  In other words, I would be wearing a "feminine" outfit (bought from the women's section and/or a women's brand) that is accessorized in a more "masculine" manner.

Plus I'll have plenty of clothes to wear post-transition, even if they seem a bit "tomboyish."  In a way I could just switch to feminine accessories at transition (including replacing a necktie with a necklace and changing out my shoes for heels), or even potentially to go to after-work networking events that are not work-affiliated by simply switching out those items as previously mentioned, and adding in makeup.

Just going to say that I have noticed over the last few days how easy it is to "get away" with women's items like blazers and pants, at least in a casual environment.  I would like to try this in a more professional environment (not a work environment, but something like a networking event) to see what kind of reactions, if any, I might get.  Preferably before trying some of the aforementioned attire I've described in a work-related business environment, including things like job interviews.

And just so you know, the look I'm considering is at least somewhat similar to the "soft butch" look.

It is very tricky to wear 'between'. It easily makes you look awkward, and may unnecessarily attracts people's attention. Yes. I also underwent that period of looking androgynous, probably for more than 10 years. In retrospect, I had better wear fully to look either like a man or like a woman. Trying to look androgynous was a kind of trade-off or escape from the binary society. Now I choose just one. But I guess any m2f people has to undergo the 'between' period with a lot of trial and errors. It is like a rite of passage.

Anyway, if you think that looking androgynous may make you feel more comfortable, there are many tips hopefully people here will provide.

In my case, to look androgynous, I sometimes wear women's or men's suit jackets. Actually, there is no significant difference in appearance between men's and women's jackets, but men's tend to be more comfortable to wear, as they are a little bit bigger. Nowadays I purchase women's suit jackets from AliExpress.com . My recent purchases include:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/PEONFLY-Ladies-Blazer-Long-Sleeve-Blaser-Women-Suit-jacket-Female-Feminine-Blazer-Femme-Pink-Blue-White/32869629280.html

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Lenshin-New-Fashion-Women-White-Blazer-Jacket-Candy-Coat-Jackets-Single-Button-Outerwear-Woman-Tops-Female/32855687315.html

About 10 years ago, I wore like this:



Long coats also look androgynous.



In spring and fall, trench coats look androgynous, too.

You may experiment with your new outfits. It is challenging, but you also can enjoy it.

barbie~~

Yes, I realize that desiring androgynous attire is fairly tricky.  Not that I'm non-binary, but it's more that I don't think I'll be able to be fully feminine for quite some time.  Mainly I wonder if I could feel satisfied with women's pantsuits and women's button-downs in a fairly business professional environment; of course, that would be the "worst case" workplace scenario, and I realize business casual is a lot more likely these days (with the potential that I could be more androgynous or in-between).  This is of course assuming that the dress code I would follow would be that associated with the gender assigned at birth (male in my case since I'm AMAB).

Given the binary nature of business professional attire, the best way I thought to make it a bit more androgynous for an AMAB person would be to switch out the clothing elements (suit and shirt) with their women's equivalents.  Of course the fit would be different, and I'm fully aware of that.  Business casual attire would be much easier to wear androgynously though, and as I mentioned that is much more common these days outside of the typically-conservative fields such as law and finance.

If only I were AFAB then androgynous would be much easier.  It sucks that women can wear somewhat-masculine attire and not be called out on it, but men can't do the opposite without facing serious criticism.  We cannot get true gender equality until this double-standard ends (since that also means not degrading feminine expression).  But in the meantime I have formulated a strategy, and while it sounds good on paper, I have yet to try it in the "real world" just yet, except for one time at an alumni networking event (for my college) I went to several months back.

BC - this has been a fascinating discussion regarding androgynous/transitional clothing. It's something I thought a lot about in the past. My wife, unknowing that I am TG, has given a me couple of her pairs of pants that fit me well, and from her perspective were genderless. My early thoughts in this direction were clothes that I could wear when traveling and I was unlikely to encounter people I knew. Some of the clothes that you referred to above are beautiful, albeit expensive. Where I run into frustration in this vane, is that if I express a little bit of my feminine side, then I want to express it all. Thus, with the clothing that you have shown, I'm sure that I would love wearing it, but I would want no ambiguity about whether I was male or female.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk