Hi,

I spoke to my doc about why my T went up a few months from 20s to 30s and he said that when you begin to have high levels of E in your system your body balances out by increasing T. Odd, because I thought outside administration of steroids reduced T and shut down the Testis. He mentioned the Testis which I still think is odd since I'd think FSH and LH production would be low or lower following E + E increase in dosage. Also said that E can be converted to T in the body. I've read about this before, but from what I recall the process is very, very, low and slow. Any confirmation on that?

Also, E raises prolactin levels. Does anyone know how fast prolactin levels drop after dropping Estradiol?

I spoke with him about Progesterone and switching to inj progesterone in oil and he says hecan't offer it because it is not WPATH. Said I should find and outside source and a compounding pharmacy to make it, but that the stuff from compounding pharmacies cannot be trusted because sometimes you don't know what you really get. Is this also true? i thought they were under some sort of stadards of regulation to prevent things like that. How could they hand out odd compounded stuff to people?

Also I think PIO is made by watson? Basically PIO is a no go with my current doctor which makes me sad. I guess i need to find an Endo? I have L.A. Care do I actually have to change my clinic to really go to another doctor to be covered ?

It is perfectly normal to experience minor fluctuations in anyone's hormone levels because there are numerous pathways where one hormone is converted to another. Your Testosterone levels are still in the female range and I would not be concerned unless they go dramatically higher.

There are several drug companies that make Progesterone Injection. It is used to restore normal menstrual cycles in women with amenorrhea. WPATH does not consider this drug to be necessary for transition purposes. Adding additional drugs to anyone's hormone therapy just increases the possibility of further complications due to the feedback mechanisms of our bodies hormone regulating systems, not even mentioning possible side effects. I have always advocated taking the least number of drugs to restore our health.

Compounding drugs by Pharmacists is controversial because of the inconsistent quality of the compounded products. I am a retired Pharmacist and I have compounded many drugs in my working life. Compounding drugs comes from way back in the mid 20th century and before when the some drugs were just not being manufactured like they are today. Of the many drugs that I  have compounded, many have a shelve life so short that manufacturing is just not feasible. Others are so rarely used that there is no possibility of profit for the manufacturer. I did most of my compounding in a hospital pharmacy where quality standards are very high and even at that we only compounded products that were absolutely necessary to save someone's life.

Compounded drugs are not just handed out. They require a prescription by a licenced physician and should be compounded within accepted procedures by pharmaceutical text books. They are not regulated by the FDA and neither are food supplements. Just as food supplements have a spotty reputation, so do compounded pharmaceuticals.

Getting back to Progesterone in Oil (PIO) there is no good reason to compound this medication as it is readily available from commercial sources.

Quote from: Dani on March 08, 2019, 05:50:27 AM
It is perfectly normal to experience minor fluctuations in anyone's hormone levels because there are numerous pathways where one hormone is converted to another.

Hello again Dani

Am I right to assume (as I have read) that T can be converted to E but E can never be converted to T please? Thanks

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: Dani on March 08, 2019, 05:50:27 AM
It is perfectly normal to experience minor fluctuations in anyone's hormone levels because there are numerous pathways where one hormone is converted to another. Your Testosterone levels are still in the female range and I would not be concerned unless they go dramatically higher.

There are several drug companies that make Progesterone Injection. It is used to restore normal menstrual cycles in women with amenorrhea. WPATH does not consider this drug to be necessary for transition purposes. Adding additional drugs to anyone's hormone therapy just increases the possibility of further complications due to the feedback mechanisms of our bodies hormone regulating systems, not even mentioning possible side effects. I have always advocated taking the least number of drugs to restore our health.

Compounding drugs by Pharmacists is controversial because of the inconsistent quality of the compounded products. I am a retired Pharmacist and I have compounded many drugs in my working life. Compounding drugs comes from way back in the mid 20th century and before when the some drugs were just not being manufactured like they are today. Of the many drugs that I  have compounded, many have a shelve life so short that manufacturing is just not feasible. Others are so rarely used that there is no possibility of profit for the manufacturer. I did most of my compounding in a hospital pharmacy where quality standards are very high and even at that we only compounded products that were absolutely necessary to save someone's life.

Compounded drugs are not just handed out. They require a prescription by a licenced physician and should be compounded within accepted procedures by pharmaceutical text books. They are not regulated by the FDA and neither are food supplements. Just as food supplements have a spotty reputation, so do compounded pharmaceuticals.

Getting back to Progesterone in Oil (PIO) there is no good reason to compound this medication as it is readily available from commercial sources.

I don't take any AA and just take E and P, but I do take dutasteride on the side though I have considered dropping it sometimes. I would guess that being on E alone is the least complicated route lol, but I have noticed breast rounding and plumper filling breasts with progesterone which I feel is really welcomed.

Thanks for the primer on compounding pharmacies. I did not know their reputation was actually so shady. It sounds like my doctor is a little confused or maybe uninformed. At times he tried to refer to PIO as non bio identical and a synthetic, but grouped it also with depo-provera and proluton depot and that it was not the same molecule as prometrium oral. The oral caps though make a double pass through the liver and that is what worries me. Also 100mg of p seems like a lot when inj pio due to high absorbtion into the body could be like 10% of that or way less. I don't know I just feel concerned specially on the double pass through the liver and the long term use of this drug.

He also mentioned pellets were soon to be available, not progesterone pellets just T and E, but with the desynthesizing comments I have read about pellets they do not seem so nice anymore.

Oh and the E to T pathway does exist, but I believe it only converst a tiny fraction of E to T from what I recall correctly?

The T to E is through aromatase but I cannot remember the name for the other.

What other ways would E increase T?

Quote from: Asakawa on March 08, 2019, 04:08:48 PM
It sounds like my doctor is a little confused or maybe uninformed. At times he tried to refer to PIO as non bio identical and a synthetic, but grouped it also with depo-provera and proluton depot and that it was not the same molecule as prometrium oral.

Physicians are no pharmacists.  One does not learn much about this in med school!   That is why we have an independent study direction for pharmacists.  Physicians know how to find drugs in the Merck Register, and might be able to remember what the pahrma rep has told them!

Quote from: Asakawa on March 08, 2019, 04:08:48 PM
I don't take any AA and just take E and P, but I do take dutasteride on the side though I have considered dropping it sometimes. I would guess that being on E alone is the least complicated route lol, but I have noticed breast rounding and plumper filling breasts with progesterone which I feel is really welcomed.

Dutasteride is pointless in those with properly suppressed T. The breast 'growth' you've noticed on P is mostly water - with some small amount attributable to increased milk duct size.

QuoteThanks for the primer on compounding pharmacies. I did not know their reputation was actually so shady. It sounds like my doctor is a little confused or maybe uninformed. At times he tried to refer to PIO as non bio identical and a synthetic, but grouped it also with depo-provera and proluton depot and that it was not the same molecule as prometrium oral. The oral caps though make a double pass through the liver and that is what worries me. Also 100mg of p seems like a lot when inj pio due to high absorbtion into the body could be like 10% of that or way less. I don't know I just feel concerned specially on the double pass through the liver and the long term use of this drug.

You can't compare dose when comparing oral vs IM delivery - both methods have a different level of bioavailability and this will play part in determining dose. Compounding pharmacies in my location are required to maintain ISO level standards, same as any pharma company, so I have no worries about them.

Oral Prometrium is micronised progesterone, suitable for oral or sublingual admin. Depo Provera is medroxyprogesterone, which is synthetic and not the same as progesterone. Proluton is real progesterone, like Prometrium and would be a better choice than Depo Provera.

QuoteHe also mentioned pellets were soon to be available, not progesterone pellets just T and E, but with the desynthesizing comments I have read about pellets they do not seem so nice anymore.

What are you referring to here? As any issues with pellet delivery are also going to bleed over in to IM and sub-Q. And I'm unaware of any "desynthesizing" issues - whatever they are. Sounds like quackery from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

QuoteOh and the E to T pathway does exist, but I believe it only converst a tiny fraction of E to T from what I recall correctly?

The T to E is through aromatase but I cannot remember the name for the other.

What other ways would E increase T?

Yes, aromatase allows the conversion of testosterone to estradiol, but there is no method to convert back the other way. Estradiol just can't be converted in to testosterone.

My E levels were high pregnancy levels for 2 years and my T levels at the same time so low they were practically non existent.

Quote from: PurplePelican on March 08, 2019, 11:42:20 PM

Yes, aromatase allows the conversion of testosterone to estradiol, but there is no method to convert back the other way. Estradiol just can't be converted in to testosterone.

Thank you. That is what I thought and have read.

Hugs

Pamela

Indeed, E can't convert to T. My E levels have been quite high for years and before supplementing with T, T remained very, very low. If E could convert to T, it would never be used as treatment for men with advanced prostate cancer whose success depends on T being very low. Also, pregnant women have very high levels of E2...food for thought. Chemically, there is no pathway from E to T.