Quote from: anne_indy on February 23, 2019, 06:15:54 PM
Thus, with the clothing that you have shown, I'm sure that I would love wearing it, but I would want no ambiguity about whether I was male or female.

And the question is: how much ambiguity would there be?  If it came across as a "feminine male" or even "soft butch" perhaps there wouldn't be too much ambiguity.  Perhaps the issue of situations where less respect is given to "feminine men" could be toned down a bit with dark colors, which generally command more respect anyways.  But as I have said, I haven't really tried these looks (including with cheaper items) to the fullest extent yet.

What works for me is to look feminine at a glance and to back it up with a feminine walk and mannerisms from a distance, even though you can tell i'm a guy close up.  This avoids the confusion in who does what since I react quickly without thinking about it.  And, yes, nearly everyone holds the door for me.  But, what else can you do when you are short with an hourglass figure?

As far as respect goes, I get that because my clothes fit well and are appropriate for where I'm going.

Hello BC,

Job interviews are different than the every day work attire. Dress conservative at an interview.

Just before I transitioned I would look at all the woman and how they dressed and what position in the organization they obtained. I would do this at meetings and leadership meetings. The higher a woman goes in an organization the more male the clothing is. It will have a feminine flair but management is management and leadership tends to wear a certain type of clothing.

I am in leadership and I will not wear "male type" managerial clothing. I did not transition to wear a pants suit.  I will be doing a board of directors meeting in mid June and I will be wearing a beautiful dress.

Where I work there is a dress code. The dress code is more stringent for females than males and states what can not be worn. This is because people have worn some unprofessional clothing at work. We also can not have offensive piercings or tattoo's. There are some areas where nail polish is not allowed, clear or otherwise. The same goes with scents and antiperspirant. I wear a scent unless I am going to a place that day where I can not. I have a difficult time remembering to put on nail polish. I love nail polish but forget to put it on.

I think the best thing to do is dress conservatively and get the job. Then see how people dress and copy. Andro if allowed then it is allowed. You can buy new cloths after you are on the job. Target, JC Penny and H&M has some nice cloths and the Loft, you just need to get the sales.

Buying on line is difficult. But if you do get clothing from a place that has a great return policy. There is nothing like trying on the clothing. I had a BA and little hips and butt. Dresses work as well as slim pants and tops. I have yet to wear a skirt. I have some capillary damage that is now 99% healed. So a skirt is something I may wear this summer.

I wore female button shirts before coming out. I was on HRT for I think 2 years. Some woman pick out the button thing immediately. Woman tend to be observant. They listen to what you say, how you say it, the distance between you and them, your hand and face gestures, inflection and what you wear.   

Good luck

Quote from: Rachel on February 23, 2019, 07:29:11 PM
Hello BC,

Job interviews are different than the every day work attire. Dress conservative at an interview.

Just before I transitioned I would look at all the woman and how they dressed and what position in the organization they obtained. I would do this at meetings and leadership meetings. The higher a woman goes in an organization the more male the clothing is. It will have a feminine flair but management is management and leadership tends to wear a certain type of clothing.

I am in leadership and I will not wear "male type" managerial clothing. I did not transition to wear a pants suit.  I will be doing a board of directors meeting in mid June and I will be wearing a beautiful dress.

Where I work there is a dress code. The dress code is more stringent for females than males and states what can not be worn. This is because people have worn some unprofessional clothing at work. We also can not have offensive piercings or tattoo's. There are some areas where nail polish is not allowed, clear or otherwise. The same goes with scents and antiperspirant. I wear a scent unless I am going to a place that day where I can not. I have a difficult time remembering to put on nail polish. I love nail polish but forget to put it on.

I think the best thing to do is dress conservatively and get the job. Then see how people dress and copy. Andro if allowed then it is allowed. You can buy new cloths after you are on the job. Target, JC Penny and H&M has some nice cloths and the Loft, you just need to get the sales.

Buying on line is difficult. But if you do get clothing from a place that has a great return policy. There is nothing like trying on the clothing. I had a BA and little hips and butt. Dresses work as well as slim pants and tops. I have yet to wear a skirt. I have some capillary damage that is now 99% healed. So a skirt is something I may wear this summer.

I wore female button shirts before coming out. I was on HRT for I think 2 years. Some woman pick out the button thing immediately. Woman tend to be observant. They listen to what you say, how you say it, the distance between you and them, your hand and face gestures, inflection and what you wear.   

Good luck

Yes, I am fully aware about job interviews being different than the every day work attire.  And that is what scares me the most.  I would like to wear women's versions of the "male" attire to such an interview, but I know there's a chance that someone might catch on to that.  Still, I know I won't be at my most confident if I know and feel the clothes I wear are completely from the men's section.  And simply "underdressing" (wearing feminine clothes beneath the external "male" clothing) probably won't have too much of an effect either, I fear. 

I say the female equivalents are somewhat "androgynous" because the base articles of clothing are gender-neutral ([pant]suits and shirts), but not so much the accessories that you would wear to complete such a professional look.  I know the fits are different, but if I can get a size up and tailor it down to my body (that takes some money though) I feel I might have better odds of getting away with such clothing, even though I would be perceived as "male."

Other than the section and/or store where I buy the clothes from, I would consider the attire I am planning to be fairly conservative.  I worry the cuts may give it away, but I guess that's the price I pay for having an increased confidence level in a job interview.

EDIT: I also wanted to say that I am considering the IT field as well (I know that I've seen and heard about many successful transgender people in that particular field, including on this forum), and would ideally like to start my own startup if I get a good enough idea.

I haven't read this thread until just recently, but it looks like you must've read one of my threads where I talk about how to handle questions about previous names when you'd prefer not to out yourself.

First of all none of that will apply until you are "post-legal" (unless you are working "under the table" you will always have to give your legal name out for tax and work authorization verification purposes, although you may be able to save outing yourself until later on in the application process).

If all an employer wants to do is contact references or verify your work/education history, it depends on whether or not such contacts can be made/records can be located with just your new name.

If the employer wants to run a full-fledged background check, then yes you will probably have to bring up your old name somehow. (Since you mention being a college graduate and not being legally transitioned yet, you are probably too old for the "see if it'd be relevant beforehand" advice that I've suggested to child or teen transitioners, since in most cases employers wouldn't care about disclosing other kinds of names changed at a like age such as if they were adopted and if they treat a transperson differently then that is discrimination. In most cases if you transitioned as an adult unless it's been longer ago than the check goes your deadname will be relevant for a typical background check.) That advice about giving the birth name/gender straight to the investigator came from a member on here several years ago who once did that - that might work although if you're looking to get a job quickly that strategy might slow things down a few days or so.

Just don't outright lie and omit the name/say that you've never used another name without inquiring about the relevance/providing another means to give it to the investigator first. *One member on here (I won't mention her name) disagrees and thinks that using those tactics is still "lying" but on that thread she's one who just replied with several posts that really didn't focus on the name issue and talked about other common lies like work dates or salary history - that's different because in those cases you're actually concealing material information, but here you're just changing the process (seeing if the name is truly relevant in your case without outing yourself initially and/or giving the old name straight to the investigator) and not the outcome (although omitting the name "cold turkey" could do that if the employer isn't made aware of factors they can legally use in making a hiring decision, like a criminal history they can ask about).

Quote from: tgchar21 on February 26, 2019, 02:03:25 PM
I haven't read this thread until just recently, but it looks like you must've read one of my threads where I talk about how to handle questions about previous names when you'd prefer not to out yourself.

First of all none of that will apply until you are "post-legal" (unless you are working "under the table" you will always have to give your legal name out for tax and work authorization verification purposes, although you may be able to save outing yourself until later on in the application process).

If all an employer wants to do is contact references or verify your work/education history, it depends on whether or not such contacts can be made/records can be located with just your new name.

If the employer wants to run a full-fledged background check, then yes you will probably have to bring up your old name somehow. (Since you mention being a college graduate and not being legally transitioned yet, you are probably too old for the "see if it'd be relevant beforehand" advice that I've suggested to child or teen transitioners, since in most cases employers wouldn't care about disclosing other kinds of names changed at a like age such as if they were adopted and if they treat a transperson differently then that is discrimination. In most cases if you transitioned as an adult unless it's been longer ago than the check goes your deadname will be relevant for a typical background check.) That advice about giving the birth name/gender straight to the investigator came from a member on here several years ago who once did that - that might work although if you're looking to get a job quickly that strategy might slow things down a few days or so.

Just don't outright lie and omit the name/say that you've never used another name without inquiring about the relevance/providing another means to give it to the investigator first. *One member on here (I won't mention her name) disagrees and thinks that using those tactics is still "lying" but on that thread she's one who just replied with several posts that really didn't focus on the name issue and talked about other common lies like work dates or salary history - that's different because in those cases you're actually concealing material information, but here you're just changing the process (seeing if the name is truly relevant in your case without outing yourself initially and/or giving the old name straight to the investigator) and not the outcome (although omitting the name "cold turkey" could do that if the employer isn't made aware of factors they can legally use in making a hiring decision, like a criminal history they can ask about).

I am completely aware that none of that advice about previous names applies until one has had a legal name change.  And what I mention about attire (such as wearing "masculine"-leaning items from the women's section and/or androgynous attire) is really meant to hold me over and keep me happy until I establish myself and can actually consider transition.  That way, I can be wearing "women's" clothing and hopefully it wouldn't out me before I am ready (or if it does, perhaps I'm perceived as a gay male instead).  Mainly the purpose of this would be to improve my odds of getting in the door somewhere diversity-friendly prior to legal transition (since trans* is still somewhat new to a lot of people and bias is still a major issue).

And with respect to post-transition, post-name-change background checks, I would probably send my court order along to any of my previous employers and see if they will update my information.  I would also try to let my references know about the name change as well.  To the greatest extent possible, after getting a legal name change I would prefer not to disclose to the greatest degree possible (and hence would rather disclose directly to the investigator instead so I that can emphasize the need to protect my privacy and safety).

I value my privacy and would prefer to be as stealth as possible once I get to the post-transition stage.  The exception would involve an SF-86 if I ever need to apply for a security clearance, though I'm a bit less worried about that since the federal government is usually pretty good at keeping SF-86 forms under wraps and away from unauthorized individuals (filled out SF-86s are not actually classified, but would likely constitute Controlled Unclassified Information and are generally exempt for FOIA disclosure due to the sensitive PII contained within).  While it helps the government whenever one comes clean on those (to address blackmail risks), on the contrary if an unauthorized individual gets hold of an SF-86, they can use it to blackmail the clearance applicant/holder (hence why there was so much concern with the 2015 OPM hack and when Abigail Spanberger's SF-86 leaked). 

That said, I'm a lot more concerned privacy-wise about more routine background checks that an employer or landlord would run.  This would likely include fingerprint-based background checks as well; with those kind of checks, in some cases there can be penalties for disclosing criminal history information to unauthorized individuals (in part as such reports can include expunged records), but I'm not sure if inferring someone is transgender based on such a report and disclosing that to others would actually count as unauthorized disclosure.  But generally, whenever government databases are accessed to run a background check, there does seem to be more protections taken than when running one through a private consumer reporting agency.  If only this were the UK (I'm in the US) where at least the government checks have a way to not out yourself (the DBS sensitive applications process) if you have no criminal history, then things would be a lot easier.  Trying to disclose previous names to the investigator directly would come a bit closer to this "sensitive" process, but unlike with DBS in the UK there are no guarantees that the information will not be discussed with unauthorized individuals.

I do agree that there does need to be a "sensitive" process (akin to the UK's DBS process) for handling previous names in connection with background checks, not only for transgender people, but also for domestic violence and stalking victims who have legally changed their names, plus those in witness protection programs, address confidentiality programs, and pretty much anyone who has received a sealed name change (as those are normally done for privacy or safety reasons) as well.  I thought about contacting Democratic members of the U.S. House to see if they could get this into a potential Equality Act (though the odds of it passing are low due to the Senate).

And I did want to mention that if it sounds like what I am doing is difficult, basically I'm trying to start with the most difficult dress code to work with from a gender-neutral/non-binary standpoint (business professional) for the worst-case on-the-job scenario and for interviews. 

Basically what I am trying to do with that is wear a women's pantsuit and button-down and pass it off as "male" business professional.  I know the fit might be a bit awkward and there could be trouble in getting neckties to work, but I have to do what I have to do to feel comfortable in such an environment as well.  Confidence is definitely key, and it will make me feel better to be wearing something made for women anyways.  Let's just say that this is my way of navigating a "binary" dress code and still being true to myself by taking advantage of the more "masculine" options now offered in women's stores 

But most corporate workplaces, as previously mentioned, are business casual on-the-job.  My philosophy is as long as I follow the dress code for the gender assigned at birth, I could still use clothes from women's stores/departments to comply with that dress standard (since there are some relatively masculine and androgynous clothes in women's stores now) until I am actually ready to transition.