Hi Folks,                      10 April 2019

I'm out and open about my Transgender status. I don't pass and probably never will. I'll be 79 in four months, wear women's clothes, and really don't care what other's think. I care about what I think. I'm a Transgender Female and am proud of it.

I kind of look at it as if I were an adopted child, someone special. Someone whose parents picked them out of all the rest. They didn't settle for whatever nature gave them. They went out of their way to pick me. As a Transgender Female. I picked my gender, not settling for what nature gave me and I am proud of it.

Recently I had an appointment with a doctor, at my age I see lots of them often. During my conversation with the Doctor I told him I am Transgender. He said "Congratulations, reached out and shook my hand and said: I'm Gay." It brought tears to my eyes that he would do that because he didn't have to and I'd have never guessed. I was honored by his gesture.

I think we tend to put too much pressure on ourselves trying for the brass ring when there really isn't any need except in our minds.

Wishing every trans person all the happiness and success the world has to offer..

Best Always, Love
Christine

Thanks Paige. This thread has me spinning a bit.

Sure I want to pass, for all the right and wrong reasons.

It can hurt particularly bad when other transfolk reject or distance themselves from another who is relatively unpassable compared to themselves.
I really don't think I'm in any position to judge someone else for passability .  Yet, I can remember doing this towards someone in a transgroup, because of their refusal to shave their full beard while presenting female. 
Who the heck am I to say anything or judge them? I may not even to stand up wearing their shoes.

Am I a doll?  Yes  No matter what someone else may think, from their perspective.
Is this important? ? ? ? ?
Am I in a position to judge feminine presentation? No!! But I can learn from others mistakes, esp if it shows me something about myself.

I passed as female easier when younger and thinner.  Years of heavier, "manly" work changed my body, with the help of T.  And eating like the hungry male I was trying to be

Quote from: christinej78 on April 10, 2019, 04:20:34 AM
Hi Folks,                      10 April 2019

I'm out and open about my Transgender status. I don't pass and probably never will. I'll be 79 in four months, wear women's clothes, and really don't care what other's think. I care about what I think. I'm a Transgender Female and am proud of it.

I kind of look at it as if I were an adopted child, someone special. Someone whose parents picked them out of all the rest. They didn't settle for whatever nature gave them. They went out of their way to pick me. As a Transgender Female. I picked my gender, not settling for what nature gave me and I am proud of it.

Recently I had an appointment with a doctor, at my age I see lots of them often. During my conversation with the Doctor I told him I am Transgender. He said "Congratulations, reached out and shook my hand and said: I'm Gay." It brought tears to my eyes that he would do that because he didn't have to and I'd have never guessed. I was honored by his gesture.

I think we tend to put too much pressure on ourselves trying for the brass ring when there really isn't any need except in our minds.

Wishing every trans person all the happiness and success the world has to offer..

Best Always, Love
Christine

Love you Christinej78
I am grateful that you are here

I really don't like the idea that I'm somehow hurting myself or others by not constantly telling everyone I meet and reminding everyone I know that I am trans.  I'm of the opinion that you don't have to "act trans" any more than anyone has to "act gay" for fear of being a traitor to your identity if you don't embrace a stereotype. 

If you're loud and proud about it that's perfectly fine.  I personally don't have a desire to act as such.

Ah. I almost got into a fight with some aggressive idiots over shopping in the "wrong" section. Not sure if I passed or not or what, but that was a close shave. It's not like trans men don't get into trouble. I regularly get into bathroom trouble as well.

Quote from: Colleen_definitely on April 10, 2019, 10:47:30 AM

If you're loud and proud about it that's perfectly fine.  I personally don't have a desire to act as such.

Me neither

Please be careful Jamie-lee.  Please find a way out without throwing down with some guys who won't accept you as a man, and possibly getting hurt permanently.
I realize that this is the opposite way for me, but I have stopped using women's restrooms altogether. Even if I'm dressed very femme.  I have weighed the odds of the looks and harassment I get in the mens room, versus the protective response from females against me in the women's room, (and others stepping in to protect the females), and decided its just better for me to take the chance in the mens room and not risk making any woman uncomfortable.
It sucks.  I guess I really want to pass, and maybe this is harming me

Quote from: Colleen_definitely on April 10, 2019, 10:47:30 AM
I really don't like the idea that I'm somehow hurting myself or others by not constantly telling everyone I meet and reminding everyone I know that I am trans.  I'm of the opinion that you don't have to "act trans" any more than anyone has to "act gay" for fear of being a traitor to your identity if you don't embrace a stereotype. 

If you're loud and proud about it that's perfectly fine.  I personally don't have a desire to act as such.

I am very much like you.  I am a woman, and if I feel it is necessary for a person to know that i am trans, I will tell them.  But it will always be on my terms, and not on the terms of some trans community (nobody asked me if I want to join them)!  I might be a pretty hugely woman, but not all cis women are beauty queens either, but I am a woman.
And at some point (very likely after my SRS), being trans will end for me, because I have arrived!

Maddie, your safety is priority one. It does not make you less trans.

I'm not out and proud either. It's not me. I just am. A lot of people already know. And I can't erase the memory of the female me in their minds. But what I can do is give them new memories of me being myself.


Tony

Quote from: Maddie on April 10, 2019, 11:00:33 AM
Me neither

Please be careful Jamie-lee.
I realize that this is the opposite way for me, but I have stopped using women's restrooms altogether. Even if I'm dressed very femme.  I have weighed the odds of the looks and harassment I get in the mens room, versus the protective response from females against me in the women's room, (and others stepping in to protect the females), and decided its just better for me to take the chance in the mens room and not risk making any woman uncomfortable.
It sucks.  I guess I really want to pass, and maybe this is harming me

And this depends on your confidence in yourself as a woman!  I was challenged once early in my full times, and my answer was a questions: if they want to see my parts!  Not a sound came back, and I could pee in the comfort of a female bathroom (including the  toilet seat protectors, which I have never seen in a male bathroom).

Thank you for your care Maddie. I usually don't get have any problems with shopping in the men's section, but this one time, idk. Sometimes some close minded people have something against me because I don't look stereotypically male or female.

As for the bathrooms, I'd very much rather not risk. Women's bathrooms are safe. ... plus they have trash cans. I need them when on period.

I think there's an unfortunate confusion between "passing" for the express purpose of hiding transgender identity, and attempting to appear female (or male) for your own gratification or sense of aesthetics and then "passing" as a side effect. Hiding my trans-ness isn't necessarily the primary purpose of engaging in activities that others might call  "passing". It's just that my sense of aesthetics happens to be identical to that of a lot of cis-women. If I wanted to look male, I'd just continue living the life that I was living two years ago without any change. But I don't want to look male, and I'm not a man, so I don't do that.

I am public, open, and out.  I routinely speak on trans and LGBTQ+ issues.  I conduct Trans 101, Queer 101, LGBTQ+ Vocabulary, radio communications and antenna physics classes.  OK, some of that is irrelevant, more or less, but...

I lost privilege when I came out and my gender presentation changed from passing as a male to being an obviously transgender person.  After a heck of a lot of work, surgeries, and practice, practice, practice, I am now seen as a woman, and accorded the privileges of a woman, less than a man, but much more than an obviously trans* person in this culture.

I now have passing privilege.  I can walk down the street with odds similar to a ciswoman of being assaulted, straight-arm punched, or harassed, much better than before I passed.  I can walk into shops and not worry about some customer or clerk calling me out.  When seated in a restaurant I no longer worry that the waiter will "Sir" me and then ignore me, never taking an order.

When doing a presentation on radio communications to law enforcement personnel, I no longer have half the class walking out. I am now booking more tech presentations than ever, in fact.

So, yes, having 'passing privilege' makes daily life and earning a living in this culture much easier. 

Now, I have also been criticized for passing. I have been told that I am 'stealing femininity', as though being femme was somehow supply-limited, a zero-sum game.  I have been told that by passing, I am somehow not supporting the "transgender cause".  Uh, see the list of classes I do pro-bono at the top.  I have been told that I am "not trans enough" and "too trans", again failing to meet someone else's standards.

I'll tell you what.  You do you, and I'll do me.  I will live my life as best as is comfortable for me, and others are free to do the same for themselves.

To ride on Michelle's post a bit, I think that cajoling others to be visibly "out" at all times for the sake of activism is pretty selfish. No one should change their own life just to suit other people's wants. Whether it's better for worse for activism or visibilty is irrelevant.

People will do what they want for the reasons they want, whether it's "passing" or not. Their actions and motives aren't really anyone else's business.

Quote from: Lucca on April 10, 2019, 04:16:43 PM
To ride on Michelle's post a bit, I think that cajoling others to be visibly "out" at all times for the sake of activism is pretty selfish. No one should change their own life just to suit other people's wants. Whether it's better for worse for activism or visibilty is irrelevant.

People will do what they want for the reasons they want, whether it's "passing" or not. Their actions and motives aren't really anyone else's business.

I am with you!  I went out only after I had a pretty good idea that I might pass most of the time!
I am not a member of any activist group, ans as i said already, I neither prescribe to any lesbian nor to any transgender group, because I dislike most of the stuff and ways they are representing themselves in public.  If anything, I think they turn the general public against us!
I am I, and nobody of any self declared group can police me into acting the way they feel I should act!  I did not sign any contract with them!

Think of it this way; would you tell a feminine cisgender woman that she needs to make herself appear more manly in order to further trans visibility, or would you presume that she may be trying to cling to unhealthy societal pressure by attempting to make herself appear female? Probably not, so why would you say that to a trans woman?

The idea or concept of passing seems a completely subjective matter and based on cultural norms.  It seems few of us here are expressing any desire to be coerced, judged, policed or invalidated by any standard.  We do voluntarily share and compare our progress with one another about transition and the milestones along this shared journey.

In fact this is a "peer support website" where we engage each other on a forum and hopefully assist each other in creating a safe place.  Some people do want and do to ask for assistance in multiple ways that might improve their sense of gender congruity, or gender identity or simply their sense of self.  Seems no need here to declare anyone in or out of the clubhouse.  There is no oath of office, special handshake or membership rituals for being part of what some feel is community right here.  A community that each of us has a part in creating.

"Trying to pass" often leads to trying too hard, and wind up failing to pass. I have been guilty of this during the beginning of my transition.

Then comes the hornet's nest. If someone can pass as a woman with little effort, and goes stealth, she is only harming herself. She basically separates herself from finding friends, and possibly love, by hiding from herself.

When a trans woman can stand tall and pass without question as a cis woman, why should she hide? She certainly doesn't have to reveal that she is trans unless she wants to.

I've never thought about passing. At my height I could only fit in with the starting lineup of the Lakers not the Sparks. I determined to be the best me I could present and the perceptions belong to the beholder. Not me.

Hi, Paige

I've read your post several times, and for some reason I've felt troubled. I don't know where this will go, but please permit me to try to write down my thoughts. I'm afraid what I write may in turn be troubling to some—if so, please let me know and I'll remove it, or ask the moderators to do so. I don't even remotely claim that anyone else feels this way. Please also forgive me if I ramble as I write.

I very much want to always pass, as it makes life very much easier than not doing so. I also definitely want people to see me as a woman. When they don't, I try to accept it like I've accepted reactions to errors I've made when learning a new language. If no-one points out something is wrong, I'm much less likely to ever find out, let alone correct it.

Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
Why does passing make us feel valid? Well let's go back to the start and ask again, what are we passing as? Cis women. So, passing as cis women makes us feel valid.

If passing as cis women is the only way for us to feel valid and like we're actually women, that means that we think, or at least feel like, cis women are more woman that trans women are. This is very hypocritical when we're the ones chanting the phrase "Trans women are real women!".

Yes, being perceived as what I have felt I am ever since childhood does make me feel extremely good. I guess valid is a perfectly accurate term, although I for some reason am not very fond of it. I've never once felt like or wished to be a trans woman, as to me personally the prefix, while valid, emphasizes otherness. I very much want to fix or minimize any feature I can, whether physical or semantic, that clearly sets me apart from my sisters.

In any case I couldn't ever classify myself a "real" woman in the sense that I possess features and experiences my sisters don't, and lack those that they do. If a real woman is an olympic athlete, I can at the very best strive to participate in the paralympics. Had I transitioned as a child, things might have been slightly better, but in reality even that would not have made me the same. This is my personal reality.

Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
We're ashamed that we're trans, and we try to distance ourselves from that identity as much as possible, at least in terms of our appearance. If that wasn't the case why would it feel so bad when we look in the mirror and realize that we don't pass, that we look like trans women?

While I've never felt ashamed of being what I am, I do want to fit in the best I can. This does include appearance and voice. I also do know that I cannot ever address everything that sets me apart.

I know some are in a better position than I am. I also know some others struggle more. I accept what I am—hopefully the best that I can be at any given moment—and sincerely hope others can do so as well.

Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
This was the attitude in the early days of the gay rights movement as well. The general idea was, "Yes I'm gay, and I'm going to have to accept it, but in reality I would rather just be straight". And look at where we are now, we teach every newly out gay person that even though it may be hard, it can be amazing to be gay, and you can, and should take ownership of that identity, and show the world that you're gay instead of acting like just another straight person. Imagine if we applied that mindset to trans people, and passing.

It's very interesting to hear that gay people used to say they would have preferred to be straight. I myself have never truly wanted to be a normal male, except in a moment of desperation when it seemed there was absolutely no way to ever change the documentation that modern society seems so fond of.

I guess customs differ. Most gay men and women I actually have worked with don't really seem to consciously advertise the fact to the world, although they may be open about it when the subject comes up. As for myself—the very thought of intentionally acting in such a way as to proclaim to the world that I'm transsexual feels foreign. I doubt I could ever bring myself to do it.

Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
Ok so, you may be saying, "So what, we want to look like cis women, where's the harm in that?" Well, there wouldn't be any harm if all of the trans women in the world trying desperately to pass all got there by their own accord, but they didn't, they got there because society at large, and especially other trans women, tell them that they need to.

No-one—cis or trans—has ever told me I need to look, sound and act natural. It is something I myself feel is necessary for my own sake. To me it is again a bit like language. I much prefer to become fluent than to entrust figuring out what I mean to the native party. Even when people are accommodating, conversation to me feels much more pleasant and rich when I know they don't need to constantly expend energy on filtering out incongruences. My own comfort grows as this effortlessness increases.

Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
If you doubt that, just look at the ways that we treat passing. I know that I've been guilty of thinking less of a trans woman because she doesn't pass. I know that I sometimes still am guilty of that. Even if I recognize that I shouldn't think less of them, it's so ingrained in my brain that it's hard to stop. This isn't only confined to me, and don't try to deny it because you all know exactly what I'm talking about. Sometimes we go as far as mocking trans women who don't pass, or who perform femininity in a way not seen as normal, even though I know for a fact that every one of us has been in that place.

I do feel pity when I see anyone who doesn't fit in, trans or not. I must also openly admit I'm guilty of once thinking "Skirt gorilla!" when I saw and heard a profanity-spewing, bald, bowlegged, scraggly-chinned trans lady wearing a tutu, fishnets, high heels, tight black leather jacket and a sparkly handbag in public. The outfit may have been a means to alleviate deeper pain than I've ever felt—but the sight and sound left me utterly terrified. In this instance I do not deny that I was completely unable of categorizing the person as female in any sense.

Had I been able to perceive any effort to fit in where societal norms are concerned, I might have not felt the sense of personal danger I did—a paralyzing fear that the image might somehow rub off on me by association.

Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
We also talk about passing as if it's some great end goal that every trans woman needs to aspire to, and even if we claim to support all trans woman regardless of appearance, the attitude is very much still there within the community.

To me getting accepted is a personal necessity. I do support all trans women who have the same need, regardless of whether they wish to pass. However, I cannot personally imagine I myself could ever dare to expect, let alone demand acceptance without also trying to do everything in my power to fit in. To me—again personally—that includes passing the best I can.

While the feedback I receive has helped convince me that dropping the male facade has (fortunately) returned the way I move and speak to the female range (that paradoxically caused me torment in my childhood,) it also tells me that testosterone did masculinize my features and voice sufficiently to matter. I'm no more reluctant to spend time, effort and money to address that than I am to otherwise take care of my physical and mental health. To me the investment is worth it.

Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
I know that this attitude caused me great pain when I was early in transition and still bought into it, and I've seen it hurt every other trans woman who I know. I felt like passing was something that I needed to do, and every second that I didn't it hurt. Whenever I saw myself, I could only see a man, because I was never trained by the community to be able to accept trans women who don't pass.

This may seem like a small complaint, but for me, and I know for other people, this was one of the main reasons why transitioning made me hate myself so much.

I'm also not conscious of having ever been trained or not trained to accept or not accept anyone. However, I definitely do categorize people subconsciously and instantaneously, and have done so since the earliest age I can remember. My culture uses the familial terms aunt, uncle, etc. as automatically affixed prefixes, especially during childhood. As I've never observed a child make a mistake when addressing or talking about "cis" people, I believe this quality is innate in most of us.

I completely agree that not being categorized the way I feel does hurt tremendously. It has hurt me every time I've experienced it. However, again, I've chosen to accept the hurt as feedback. Transitioning has never made me hate myself. Rather, it has helped me accept myself. It is something I needed to do, as remaining untrue to myself constantly etched away at my soul. I'm free and returning home.

Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
It isn't hopeless though. Over time I started to realize that these ways of thinking were hurting me, so I slowly forced myself to stop. I learned to love myself, and know that I'm valid without seeing a cis woman in the mirror. In fact, now I intentionally talk in my deeper natural voice just to remind myself (and everyone around me) that yes I'm trans, and yes it's ok to be proud of that.

We'll never win acceptance for everyone until we can proudly show the world all of the trans women who don't subscribe to the norms. So to every trans woman out there who can't pass, or who doesn't pass, or who just doesn't want to fit your mold, know that you're beautiful just as you are, and you don't need to live up to someone else's idea of what it means to be you.

I very much admire people who are strong enough to not conform, and at the same time loving, caring, considerate and wholesome enough to be fully accepted and loved by society at large. For me blending in is a necessity—I simply am not good enough, nor do I have sufficient drive or pride to constantly display what has caused me pain if I can avoid doing so.

Actually, looking back, in my school days I did end up being rather non-conformist. The reason was that there was absolutely no way that I could fit in the boy group. No matter what I did I was questioned, derided and shunned for being too out of the norm. My movements, body language and speech were likely abhorrent to many of my peers. I eventually changed schools, grew my hair, wore whatever I felt like, and started to ignore people's opinions. The "out" group accepted me because I spoke their language, and the elite group because of my grades.

However, even back then I never wanted to not belong—and now that I no longer keep up the boy facade, I do very much want to fit in. I want to no longer belong to just the fringes, but be casually accepted by others as well. As I have neither the power nor the desire to force others to accommodate me, I want to make it so that they never even have to think about it.

To be honest, I personally do not think acceptance can ever be won. Rather I think it can at the most be to some degree earned. E.g. while my school's honor society did accept me, I simply can't think of any way I might have been able to force the main body of the students to do so.

Come to think of it, my conscious non-conformity in school may equate to the choice of the person I mentioned above who scared me so. If that is the case, I can but belatedly think of her with the deepest sympathy. Desperation can drive out all hope of ever fitting in, and provides in return nothing but the satisfaction of knowing one is consciously thumbing one's nose at society. The feeling is something that I wish on no-one.

I'm aware some may think my choices and way of thinking amount to a betrayal of their cause. However, I'm now and have always been primarily an individual, and only secondarily a part of the abstract collective that consists of everything trans. As a person I have no desire to be different than other women. As trans I hope that I can transcend the label in such a way that no-one thinks me in any way different from everyone else where work, simple daily interaction or friendship is concerned.

In any case, be whatever may be I'll always be merely me. Thus, I  strive, hope and wish to as best I can be the me that I want to be.

Quote from: Maddie on April 10, 2019, 09:05:59 AM
Thanks Paige. This thread has me spinning a bit.

Sure I want to pass, for all the right and wrong reasons.

It can hurt particularly bad when other transfolk reject or distance themselves from another who is relatively unpassable compared to themselves.
I really don't think I'm in any position to judge someone else for passability .  Yet, I can remember doing this towards someone in a transgroup, because of their refusal to shave their full beard while presenting female. 
Who the heck am I to say anything or judge them? I may not even to stand up wearing their shoes.

Am I a doll?  Yes  No matter what someone else may think, from their perspective.
Is this important? ? ? ? ?
Am I in a position to judge feminine presentation? No!! But I can learn from others mistakes, esp if it shows me something about myself.

I passed as female easier when younger and thinner.  Years of heavier, "manly" work changed my body, with the help of T.  And eating like the hungry male I was trying to be

Love you Christinej78
I am grateful that you are here

Hi Maddie,                        11 April 2019

Welcome to Susan's Place; I think you will find this a safe and welcoming retreat populated by some of the nicest people anywhere. There is a lot of experience and knowledge here so feel free to ask questions as there are many folks here that can and will be happy to answer them.

Thank you for the beautiful comment. I don't think I deserve it but I'll gratefully accept it.

Take care; wishing you the best of luck with your transition, your life and future.

Best Always, Love you too
Christine

Quote from: zirconia on April 11, 2019, 05:58:53 PM
In any case, be whatever may be I'll always be merely me. Thus, I  strive, hope and wish to as best I can be the me that I want to be.

Wow, Zirconia, thank you. When I first saw your post, I thought, "There's no way I'm going to read all that!" Then I started reading, and couldn't stop. I wish I'd written it.

You perfectly describe the way I feel. My wish to live what remains of my life without a T prefix is valid, and in no way invalidates anyone else's point of view.

We are all individuals, members of society as a whole, and parts of subgroups. Those subgroups can be self-chosen, or imposed on us by society based on how we are perceived through our presentation or actions. I am doing my best, through the way I act and show myself to the world, to avoid having trans imposed on me by others, and instead choose female for myself. This is who I am (and have been for my entire existence), and is not so much an effort as it is the natural way of living my life.

I am far from perfect, but I try to not judge others for differing points of view or presentation. All are valid. I support my sisters and brothers struggling through the same things I am, but the word pride has never applied to me. While I have walked in a parade waving our flag, that felt like a very special circumstance, something that was appreciated by both me and the crowds cheering for us. In day to day life I endeavor to not beacon my trans-ness to the world. My comfort, and sometimes my safety are dependent on it.

Being trans is something imposed on me by some fluke of biology, and I don't find overcoming it something to be proud of. I just want to live quietly as my true self. After a literal half-century of struggling internally, I don't have the strength or will for external struggles.

So yes, passing is extremely important to me. If some believe that my need to be seen as my true self is somehow hurting others, I can live with that.