i have read some artcles (both ts related, and not) about index and
ring finger lenght ratio which says that usually woman have shorter ring
than index finger and men have vice versa...
you can read about this and see the picture here:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-01-23-finger-ratios_N.htm

woman also have their elbows standing at certain angle form their body
while men's arms go straight down form the shoulder...
so what if (like in my case) a biological male (xy karyotype) has both of
these features?
i am also in the proces of being diagnosed either ts or is so would like to
know how having these particular traits could help

No, this has nothing to do with whether you're TS or not. If you are TS you will feel a strong urge to be a part of the opposite sex you were born. You need to look inside, not outside.
Finger-length "science" and how you carry your arms as a determining factor for being TS is just bunk.

EDIT: For the record, I have same length index/ring but I have known transwomen who don't and are not less women for that.

well inside it is all very clear... but now i am focusing on my phsical sex
i have some intersexed characteristics and recently came across this
angel and finger ratio as another

you can read more about ti here, page 3
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,26579.40.html

i am dealig with doctors with very little understanding and konwledge
about my situation so any feedback is welcome...

I don't know if it is "bunk" or not but I will tell you what I've read.

All babies start out the same and the mothers hormones determine the sex, brain sex and body features. If everything
proceeds normally a proper baby develops either male or female. But if the proper amounts or the timing of the
hormones are off things go wrong. Testosterone affects the index to ring finger ratio and the elbow angle
and brain sex. The proper amounts of Testosterone cause men to have an index finger that is shorter than the ring finger.

You can easily see the elbow angle if you hold your arms at your sides and turn your palms out facing forward. A
mans elbows allow the lower part of the arm to hang straight down and his little fingers easily touch the upper
thigh. A womans hands will be a few inches or more from her thighs. The reason I've read is so that the
arms clear the wider hips of a female.

Both of these are traits a TS MIGHT present with and I've read that a normal man will never have the
elbow angle of a woman BUT a TS MIGHT have the elbow angle of a man. A man will never have the
elbow angle of a woman. If you were ever told "you throw like a girl" when you were a kid the elbow angle
is probably part of the reason. I had to make major adjustments with my shoulder to come close to a proper
arm position and release when I was a kid. I never knew what the problem was until I found out about the
elbow angle. Both these have been scientifically studied and I think a little goggling will turn up the papers.

In my case my index and ring finger lengths are identical and I have female elbows. Since I've found this out
I've studied men and womens hands and when I get the chance I've talked about the elbow angle. In my small
sample I've not found a male with either trait and every GG has the traits.

So the theory goes that if you have these two traits your brain sex might also be affected. Like I
said I don't know if that is real science or not and we may never know but SOME of us do have
those two traits.

But Jane is so right... none of that matters... it's whats in your mind and heart. I was looking for
clues that explained my TS so I can relate to what you are doing but for me I just had to accept it and
then deal with it. 

Amanda

Not sure about the finger thing (seem to recall there actually being something to that from the womb or some such) but the whole 'arm carry angle' thing is bogus.
Some lady by the name of Melanie something or other started that.
Yes, genetic women's arms angle a certain way to facilitate nursing but I highly doubt anyone genetically male has it.
And now this lady's got every TS checking their arms. Just wishful thinking.

Hi Nero, I don't have a link but I remember reading a scientific study about it
so I tend to believe that it's at least been looked at. The conclusion as I recall is
what I stated.

QuoteYes, genetic women's arms angle a certain way to facilitate nursing but I highly doubt anyone genetically male has it.

I've got it So maybe I'm not genetically male? I'd really love that... it would explain a lot... but I highly doubt that.

Hope you are feeling better

Amanda

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 16, 2008, 10:06:37 AM

Hope you are feeling better

Amanda

Thanks. 


Well, I could be wrong, not that it's been known to happen. Were the studies with TS? Cause it just seemed like something this Melanie person 'invented'.

Girls with Turner Syndrome (46X) have a pronnounced carrying angle (about twice as the regular GG population). What this means I have no idea but it's worth noting.



Source: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/445555_6

Quote from: Nero on April 16, 2008, 09:22:11 AM
Not sure about the finger thing (seem to recall there actually being something to that from the womb or some such) but the whole 'arm carry angle' thing is bogus.
Some lady by the name of Melanie something or other started that.
Yes, genetic women's arms angle a certain way to facilitate nursing but I highly doubt anyone genetically male has it.
And now this lady's got every TS checking their arms. Just wishful thinking.

If the arm angle is real I have it. My fingers might also be the same length but my measuring methods were crude and i must admit bias. However my arms are extremely clear when I turn my palms forward my hands shoot out 3-4" from my sides it takes pressing my upper arms into my ribs to the point of pain to make contact and they bounce right back out the moment i relax my muscles. Other than this I've always assumed i had a normal but thin male body. Odds are this will all turn out to be urban legend and elbow angle isn't a male/female trait. But if it is it will be the first clear evidence there is something different about my body and not just my mind.

Quote from: Nero on April 16, 2008, 10:24:51 AM

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 16, 2008, 10:06:37 AM

Hope you are feeling better

Amanda

Thanks. 


Well, I could be wrong, not that it's been known to happen. Were the studies with TS? Cause it just seemed like something this Melanie person 'invented'.

The focus was on hormone levels during fetus development. TS was mentioned as a possible indication of improper hormone
levels and it noted that many TS's have the female elbow angle. Melanie may have improperly tied it to TS but the study
talked about it being clearly a female trait that men will not have. But with all that said, you can find two studys I'm sure for
ANY topic that says the exact opposite.

I know for me, I have female elbows, I don't know if it means anything but maybe someday we will. Everyone should
poll all the men in their lives and see how many have a female carry angle. I've not found any that do yet but
I've only sampled maybe 10-15.

Amanda

Posted on: April 16, 2008, 11:36:23 AM

---

Quote from: soldierjane on April 16, 2008, 10:32:56 AM
Girls with Turner Syndrome (46X) have a pronnounced carrying angle (about twice as the regular GG population). What this means I have no idea but it's worth noting.

Cutie!

Source: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/445555_6

Uggg.... mine are about like the little girls... maybe I have Turner Syndrome too. LOL.

Amanda

i don't think Melanie "invented" this, she just brought it to attention
as far as i have read on different places, the conclusion is that females
tend to have more prominent arm carrying angle than males
I haven't found any study about transsexuals and carrying angle.
here is one article aboutcarrying angle in man which also concludes the
statement http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1249704&pageindex=2

Quote from: Mari on April 16, 2008, 11:50:52 AM
i don't think Melanie "invented" this, she just brought it to attention
as far as i have read on different places, the conclusion is that females
tend to have more prominent arm carrying angle than males
I haven't found any study about transsexuals and carrying angle.
here is one article aboutcarrying angle in man which also concludes the
statement http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1249704&pageindex=2

So, it's saying some men do have it?

By the way... Melanie who?

Quote
So, it's saying some men do have it?

That study says male range ends about 10 degrees less acute than the female range. LOL... yes
I'm going home tonight to measure my angle, thanks  

In the men I've seen there pinkies easily touch the thighs... I can't do that at all even if forced without
turning my elbow.

Amanda

Posted on: April 16, 2008, 12:24:47 PM

---

QuoteBy the way... Melanie who?

The only Melanie I know that is a well known TS is Melanie Phillips.

Well my arms are on backwards, what does that make me?

Armackwards?

wrong.

A poor waiter.

lol.. I guess your good at scratching your own back?

There have been a number of studies about finger length (digit ratio) in transsexual people. I took part in one undertaken a Charring Cross GIC in the late 90's.

As I understand it the digit ratio of xx women and transsexual is the same when taken as a group but that it is only a statistical correlation and not an indicator for any individual.

I have this link to one study.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6TBX-4H16P9S-1/2/ae91dff18b1b99385054e3bf971d47f9

Ann

Thanks Anonymouse I've not seen that one before but it had similar results. This study was done in
Munich, Germany in 2005.

Here are a few excerpts:

"We present novel data that strongly supports a role for biological factors in the etiology of male transsexualism
insofar that MTF display female-typical sexually dimorphic features that have been previously proposed to be
influenced by prenatal androgen exposure."

"If we assume that prenatal androgen exposure has a partial influence on the 2D:4D ratio our data
suggests that males experiencing lower than normal levels of androgen during prenatal developemnt
are more likely to develop transsexuality contrasting with the higher-than-normal prenatal testostorne
levels that have been found in some studies of male homosexuality.

"In summary our study lends support to the view that there is a biological
basis for male to female transsexuality and hints at a causal role for
prenatal androgen levels."

The study does say the right hand for right handed MTF's the ratio is more toward the female range than
for left handed MTF. And the difference is really small. The control group female was .97 and
males .953 with MTF's being almost the same as the control females for the right hand.

I think my ratio is exactly 1.0, there is no visible difference in lengths on either hand.

Amanda