Allie, you need to do what is right for you. My experience is different... different marriage circumstances and different life stories. I respect your opinion and putting family first.

I hope you get the support you need and that you lead your life as you need.

I can hear the struggle inside you. Keep being positive and you will find the path that works for you.

Remember the concept of mourning the loss of the old you ... help her through her process so she can eventually see the shining light of the future that you see.

All of us have a barriers to overcome. For me, it is not my wife, but my 20y son. I need to understand his journey like you are trying to understand your wife's journey.

Hopefully that helps.

Hugs Zoe



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Quote from: Allie Jayne on May 05, 2019, 01:09:34 AM
Zoe and Kim, there is no need to be sorry, you are both right in that she fears for her own wellbeing. I am not ashamed of who I am.  Let me explain why I still respect her fears. She hasn't had a lifetime of learning about transgender, and doesn't have a support resource such as this. Like most people, she doesn't understand transgender, and lack of knowledge breeds fear. She believes, as I did, that people will point and laugh. She fears the reaction of her friends and family. She married me and is committed to be my partner, even though I am actively changing. If I could 100% pass, I believe she would fear it less, but, like most people, she fears me standing out as different, or as some may view it, freakish. Yes, they are her fears for herself, but as I am committed to her, I must regard those fears. I believe that for the commitment and support she has shown, I owe her a couple more years to learn and grow with my changes.

As I said before, it is all about what is most important to you. For me, I would give my life for my loved ones, so a little time and education seems a reasonable price to pay to keep them with me. We are all different. We are all changing. For you, the importance is on being yourself, and I respect that. I have a really strong maternal instinct, so my focus is my family, and then me. This thread has changed my outlook for myself, but not my priorities. I'm hoping I can get through this transition, and now maybe be as a non passing me, and still keep my loved ones close. It may not work, but I would feel terrible if I didn't give it my best shot.

It is awesome that you pass on your experiences, and it really does help many of us, but please remember, we are all different, with different needs, circumstances, beliefs, and backgrounds. I do respect where you are coming from, but ask you to also respect where others are coming from.

Allie

Allie I think you stated your position very well and I respect every word you said.  I am glad that you understand that Zoe and I mean no disrespect and none is taken by your reply.  ( I read this again a couple more times and maybe you did think we were disrespecting you - at the start you mentioned no need to be sorry but at the end it sounded like you may have thought we were being disrespectful.  Regardless, that was not my intent and I am confident it was also not Zoe's )

I always say not everyone has to transition.  This is a choice.  We must all weigh what matters.  You appear to want to transition.  I am sure your wife loves you.  I truly hope it works out.  Hopefully you can educate her regarding what being transgender is all about.

My big concern for you is the embarrassment that she believes that she would feel and the need for you to keep it hidden.  That is no way to live.  But you make good points and this is your life to live and no one else's including those of us that offer our opinion.

That is all we do here is offer suggestions, insight and opinion.  It is up to the reader to decide if it fits for them.
I tend to be a bit strong in my opinions and will continue to do so.  That type of motivation is what helped me to transition however it is never my intent to criticize someone else's desires or beliefs.  Only to give my opinion and something for them to consider.

From your note I don't believe you were offended but if you or anyone reading was I apologize.  Not for what I said, I believe those things, but for making anyone feel that they are being criticized.  I don't know everything and never claimed to.

Keep sharing and we will keep trying to support you.  And TALK to your wife.

Hopefully Allie, Zoe and I are good. 

I would like to hear stories from other people that don't pass about how their daily lives are now.  Also I would like to hear from those that their fear of not passing is holding them back from transition.

Any of you non-posters want to give it a try?  We don't bite and I am pretty sure nobody is searching your computer. 

Kim, all of good. I appreciate your forthrightness and honesty.

Zoe

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Quote from: KimOct on May 05, 2019, 01:50:47 AM
Hopefully Allie, Zoe and I are good. 

From my part we are absolutely good! Just needed you to see my situation and know there are many other perspectives as well. I am terribly thick skinned, have been a moderator on forums full of aggressive people, and have a customer service background where I took the most difficult customers. This forum is a dream with the very nice people I have encountered thus far.

Another perspective on passing. I present at work as a man, albeit with quite long hair and other give aways, but everyone interacts with me like I was a woman. I have a high level of empathy, I cry easily, I'm not pushy, and care greatly about others (including animals in our care). I am the one who washes the dishes in the lunch room. I bring baked goods, do any sewing jobs, and take home the tea towels to wash (we take turns). We work with children and I take on the upset, handicapped, or just plain difficult kids, and have great success at making them happy, or at least join in. The ladies I work with confide in me and value my opinion on many things only women should know. They know I raised my two children, from 3 and 5 yo, by myself, so I am included in mothering discussions. My boss addresses us collectively as 'girls'.  My point is that acceptance is as much about what we do as how we look. The problem is that it only works with exposure, whereas we can be assessed on looks immediately.

Allie

Great post Allie.  As someone with 2 autistic children I thank you for what you do.  Also you make a good point about how we are perceived.  Looks really shouldn't matter unfortunately our own perception of our looks is what causes many of us, including myself, to not live as our authentic selves.  My own perception of my looks prevented me for 55 years which is why I started the topic.

Kim, I just want to post a slight thread derailment and mention I loved your hair on racetrack day 

Nikki I hate it when people interrupt to give me compliments     Thanks I appreciate it.  Actually my hair looked much better before going out into the wind.  I really should have went to the ladies room and fixed it before starting to play poker.  Gotta look pretty for the guys. 

Nice to see you. 

Kim looking at your pix I see a woman. If I hadn't read about you I would never have known

AS some one that never expects to pass (but have been told I do) I must say I don't give a damn what anyone thinks about me, but like you say men say you have guts and women are more than friendly . Off to the pub now, best hair and makeup time!!

Yes amazing though this was going to be hateful rhetoric like transgender circle jerk on ->-bleeped-<- rude they're  but yes I feel that way 2 thank you for sharing

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So I saw my therapist today who is amazing.  A fair amount of my insight has found its roots with her.  I am having a very tough time at work for the last few days and really beating myself up so the timing was good.

But related to this topic, at least loosely, we talked about gender roles and conforming to those roles and expectations both physically and mentally.

I like some vestiges of my pre- transition life.  The examples we discussed were there is a co-ed softball team at work.
I used to be a big 'stick' at softball for years.  Batted clean up played 1st base, I could really crush the ball deep. I loved that.  But she gave the example of a female softball player.  The local University U of MN has a good team.  She said is their big hitter any less female?

She went on to talk about my nails.  I do a great job on my own nails.  No need for a salon.  She said 'you love to hit a home run and you love to do your nails' that is all part of who you are.  I thought about that for awhile.

We are who we are.  We don't need to fit into a box.  Not just what we enjoy or our sexuality or our appearance.
I am Kim as ONE person.  All of this gender stuff is nothing more than a societal construct that has been entrenched over decades and centuries.

Being our true selves is what matters.  We don't have to act the way others expect, like the things we are 'supposed'
to like or look the way we are supposed to.  All we really need to do as live as who we are.

And a lot of people in the world still like us anyway. 

I was feeling very discouraged at work today and a straight male worker gave me a hug.  Others checked on me to try and cheer me up. 

There is a joy in not passing.  That joy is that people get to know the real you.  And usually if you let your guard down most of them will like you.

That doesn't make my work problem go away but the problem of hiding who I am is sure gone.

Passing an interesting topic.

At this point I can easily submerge myself and no one would be the wiser. Sometimes I choose to do so. Sometimes I choose to out myself as trans because... I 'm not ashamed of being me and trans is part of that.

I suppose I'm lucky that I have 'passing privilege' BUT it didn't bother me when I didn't either. I think we can get so hung up on passing we forget that we have the unique opportunity to be ourselves and actually enjoy life.

There is no model male or female. Look around any busy public place. There are so many different shapes. sizes, ethnicities, ages, etc that it really doesn't matter if you appear 'male' or 'female' because you only have to be binary if you choose to be!

Thanks Kim and you other posters for this great and highly relevant thread! This is so timely for me. I just found it today (thanks for the cross reference Kim).

This is exactly where I am in my own process. I can relate to Allie above. My wife and I have agreed that I will not start HRT, and she is Ok with me wearing anything I want. We are very close and mutually supportive. We love to travel together and spend time outdoors. We've been together for 38 years and value our relationship. Foregoing HRT is a sacrifice for me, and I hold out hope that she may eventually come around. But I want to stay together, and crossdressing does pretty well to alleviate my dysphoria.  So...long derailing paragraph complete lol.

I am pretty comfortable out in public dressed as a woman but not bothering with makeup. I am literally a man in women's clothes. But it's Ok, and I rarely get so much as a look. The past few weeks I've been attending my twice-weekly weight lifting class at the YMCA fully crossdressed in female workout clothes.  My hair is now below shoulder length and this week I began wearing it tied back with a scrunchie (I still have to wear a femme cap to cover the top of my bald head, which they've all seen for the 3 years we've been in this class together). I have to add that the class is 80% women, as is the instructor. A few long glances to check me out, but not a word, and people still talk to me the same as ever. As many of you have said, it's the fear that holds us back, but once we take the plunge it's no problem.

Just this morning I got an email from Quora (I have indicated an interest on that site in crossdressing, so I get notifications when somebody answers a question on that topic). It's not a support site, more a Q&A one. (I dont think this violates the TOS since its a general interest site unrelated to gender.) Anyway, somebody asked something about crossdressing without passing, and there were so many positive responses just like here. We are not alone! There are many of us! You can do this!

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Randy, you have to do what is most important to you, but things can change. My wife has accepted me crossdressing for 20 years as it kept my dysphoria under control, but last year I started to get more depressed until I became unwell. After the medicos ran out of ideas, it became obvious my dysphoria was getting on top of me and my therapist recommended I transition. The change since starting HRT has been amazing. My illness was resolved within a couple of weeks after 8 months of suffering, and I felt amazing. Thankfully, my wife recognised my health was on the line, and has supported my transition, albeit taking it slowly. Last night she was feeling my breast development and joked she could become a lesbian above the waist. I am happy how this is developing, as I see she is evolving with me, but I made her part of the decision process so she shares ownership. Bottom line is I'd hate to lose her and be on my own, and have to start over again financially in my 60's.

Allie

Quote from: Allie Jayne on May 17, 2019, 02:30:11 AM
Randy, you have to do what is most important to you, but things can change. My wife has accepted me crossdressing for 20 years as it kept my dysphoria under control, but last year I started to get more depressed until I became unwell. After the medicos ran out of ideas, it became obvious my dysphoria was getting on top of me and my therapist recommended I transition. The change since starting HRT has been amazing. My illness was resolved within a couple of weeks after 8 months of suffering, and I felt amazing. Thankfully, my wife recognised my health was on the line, and has supported my transition, albeit taking it slowly. Last night she was feeling my breast development and joked she could become a lesbian above the waist. I am happy how this is developing, as I see she is evolving with me, but I made her part of the decision process so she shares ownership. Bottom line is I'd hate to lose her and be on my own, and have to start over again financially in my 60's.

Allie

This reply is not only to Allie and Randy (primarily I guess ) but to everyone with a spouse.  Everyone with a spouse has an added challenge is this decision.  I do not begrudge anyone their choice regarding transition - the whole point of this is to be happy - however I do think it is wise to have an honest conversation as both Allie and Randy have.
And hopefully you can find peace.

This really should be in the other topic THE Decision but of course there is some overlap as with everything else in the crazy, interesting, wonderful world of being trans.

I know this is not a music site but please indulge me.  Both of these songs have helped me feel better about how I look out in the world and hopefully they will do the same for someone else. 

Great songs Kim.  I want to learn the first.

What you said about the honest conversation-- Really conversations is so right on.  I started my transition by sitting. Talking, and listening to my wife.  I am so amazed still that she though stunned, has been so supportive. We go to therapy. together our coversations are daily. We are staying together.  I know I am blessed in this my best friend is on the journey with me.

I have offered to go slow, she says no.  She knows my happiness lies on this path.  Se sees already the change in me.  Somehow we did good.  It all stems from our loving communication.

Whether I pass down the road or not becomes less important.  I am happier and more at peace than I imagined.  Everyone has their own situation. I know.  Thanks for this great thread. It made me think deeper.

Hugs,   Gina

It's official, we are off topic    but that's OK this stuff is important.  Admittedly I am post divorce (not due to gender )
but it just makes sense to me that the only way a relationship can be healthy is to truly and honestly communicate.

Relationships deteriorate for many reasons far more diverse than this issue but in order to keep them healthy we have to talk to each other.  If one partner is miserable then it's pretty likely then they will both become miserable. 

Couples do stay together, which is wonderful.  And some don't but staying together unhappy makes no sense to me.

Find happiness, hopefully together.

I would love to hear somebody jump in that their fear of how they will look is a major hurdle in deciding to transition or even just go out in public.  It was by far my biggest fear.  It took a lot of work but I eventually figured it out with a lot of help from others and also by helping myself.

Don't know of any "joy" in not passing, but resignation may apply.
As a giant, I know I'll never ever in a million years be seen as anything but a super tall dude.
Size 16 feet, 5'20"
no I never played basketball, did you play miniature golf?
15 years hrt, still pass awesomely as a guy without anyone ever seeing differently.
If I were to go out dressed to the 9s with makeup on...same.