That's actually why I used it. Was trying to come up with a term other than sissy. Sissy sounds so demeaning.

Isn't a male tomboy a janegirl?

I prefer the term femboy, was nice, like gameboy.

Quote from: Pica Pica on April 16, 2008, 04:12:00 PM
It's funny actually, if I were born a female bodied androgyne I reckon I would have presented myself very girly and not a tom boy at all.

Oh, you're there.

Quote from: Zythyra on April 16, 2008, 04:17:22 PM
I had an interesting realization during transition that if I'd been born with women's body, I would have likely been on the tomboy/butch side of expression, but as a male bodied person, lean more towards the femme.

Z

But yet when you became a woman you didn't? Why is that?
(Or am I wrong, if so, my sincere apologies. It was not meant to be rude, if you do not wish to discuss it I understand.)

I am curious because I sort of though of myself in the same manner except I forced myself toward the male side hoping to fit in. Which to be honest, I question the wisdom of that decision.



Posted on: April 16, 2008, 07:52:51 PM

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Quote from: Pica Pica on April 16, 2008, 04:12:00 PM
It's funny actually, if I were born a female bodied androgyne I reckon I would have presented myself very girly and not a tom boy at all.

I swear Pica Pica, a little work on your voice you could get away with it with little effort at all.

A little voice work and a little makeup, you would be all set.  With your accent you could probably get away with no voice work here in much of the U.S., the accent would throw people as it is. A corset would probably work miracles on you in the shape department.

Seriously.
I'm a bit jealous

Quote from: sd on April 16, 2008, 08:00:24 PM
But yet when you became a woman you didn't? Why is that?
(Or am I wrong, if so, my sincere apologies. It was not meant to be rude, if you do not wish to discuss it I understand.)

I am curious because I sort of though of myself in the same manner except I forced myself toward the male side hoping to fit in. Which to be honest, I question the wisdom of that decision.

To make a long story short... I felt more comfortable living as a woman than I ever had as a man.  But ultimately it felt as though I was exchanging one box for another, that didn't quite fit either, although it was better.

Other factors included; I wasn't willing to lose my musical career, which was taking a big hit when I transitioned, and also I really don't wish to be tethered to the medical establishment for the rest of my life. I've always been a person who won't even take an aspirin.

So I asked myself a question, could I simply be myself, with the body I have, honoring who I am inside regardless of what the world sees on the outside. People in other cultures have lived this way throughout history. I feel that the world needs to change, expand the perception of gender to include more than two, I didn't want to change my body just because society can't deal with a person who doesn't fit in the binary.

Anyway, that's the short answer. The long answer will be a book, if I ever get it done 

Zythyra

Thank you Z.
Good luck on your book, I would love to read it.

I would say that tomboys are gender queer - and they do what they do because it feels right. Perhaps they are not so different from us. 

Perhaps they could be included in the group of people that don't know they are androgyne. They have found an 'accepted' way to behave and express their internal self and have no need to go looking for other answers.  Perhaps you could view them as gendered androgynes - like having some identity of their birth sex mixed with the behavioural urges of the opposite sex, while other androgynes don't appear to have a gender at all and they seem to adopt what is convenient or catches their interest.

I am starting to believe that I am a borderline late onset transsexual. I have this unease about identifying as a woman but my unconscious mind yearns for a female body and the ability or 'right' to dress in female attire, but socially I would rather be androgynous - maybe I just want to be a woman without the social rules of being a woman. Maybe I am a Tomboy transsexual? The total rejection of my male self feels too strong to relate well with androgyne sentiments - yet I am aware I have male traits and don't know whether these are self created protection or simply part of who I am. Perhaps Eddie Izzard described it right when he said he was an action ->-bleeped-<- - he runs, leaps, climbs trees and puts on make-up.

I'm a female androgyne in a male body....I think this is the closest to how I feel. I feel like I have just opened a place I have feared to look into. In my heart I don't think I will be happy untill I am, at least outwardly, a woman. My poor family. No rushing into things though eh?

(God, that statement resonates "In my heart I don't think I will be happy untill I am, at least outwardly, a woman." It is crushing to hear myself say it, yet Nicole is going yippee inside yet it is bittersweet, mourning for my poor shell Nicholas who has protected us all his life and has just caught a glimpse of his death and end of his way of life) 

Quote from: NickSister on April 17, 2008, 04:16:37 PM
I'm a female androgyne in a male body....I think this is the closest to how I feel.

Welcome to the club.

The next question is, is it worth doing what needs to be done to achieve that or can you make yourself comfortable and work with what you have.

Quote from: sd on April 17, 2008, 04:37:10 PM

Quote from: NickSister on April 17, 2008, 04:16:37 PM
I'm a female androgyne in a male body....I think this is the closest to how I feel.

Welcome to the club.

The next question is, is it worth doing what needs to be done to achieve that or can you make yourself comfortable and work with what you have.

The male front for me is becoming increasingly painful to put on and to maintain. Even just looking at clothes makes me despondent, angry and depressed. I love crowds yet I can no longer stand to be in one for long. I don't think I could ever be comfortable just working with what I got. I don't know if it will ever be worth it, I got a lot to lose (wife and family). The whole situation is just tragic. Nobody wins. So it is a choice between Fear of the unknown yet possibility filled future laced with pain vs the fear of a future with only one possibility which is living in the shadow of misery.

Quote from: NickSister on April 17, 2008, 04:16:37 PM
I'm a female androgyne in a male body....I think this is the closest to how I feel. I feel like I have just opened a place I have feared to look into. In my heart I don't think I will be happy untill I am, at least outwardly, a woman. My poor family. No rushing into things though eh?

(God, that statement resonates "In my heart I don't think I will be happy untill I am, at least outwardly, a woman." It is crushing to hear myself say it, yet Nicole is going yippee inside yet it is bittersweet, mourning for my poor shell Nicholas who has protected us all his life and has just caught a glimpse of his death and end of his way of life) 

I can relate to the feeling of being a female androgyne in a male body. It wouldn't be so bad if I weren't my losing hair on top  but that's the way it goes.

I really hope you can work it all out with your family Nicole, this is a very tough place to be in. Hugs!

Zythyra

Quote from: sd on April 17, 2008, 04:37:10 PM

Quote from: NickSister on April 17, 2008, 04:16:37 PM
I'm a female androgyne in a male body....I think this is the closest to how I feel.

Welcome to the club.

The next question is, is it worth doing what needs to be done to achieve that or can you make yourself comfortable and work with what you have.

That is a big question. I confess I continue to take finasteride, though I don't need it for the prostate after my surgery. Yet I face this question daily--and while I lean toward the latter option, I, too, am conflicted, obviously. We went for some family counseling this week, and my daughter told the psychologist: "My Dad wants to be a woman." and cited the red-shoes incident. On the other hand, I heard on NPR today that this Pope differs from his predecessor in that he wears red shoes.

In general, my body works and my relationships work. If hormone therapy takes seven years and a lifelong commitment, what will I be able to do as a 75-year-old woman that I can't in my male body. Perhaps, continuing to push the boundaries as some of you more mature androgynes do...? I do think I will postpone the woman's blouses until my daughter heads off for college at summer's end.

S

Quote from: Simone Louise on April 17, 2008, 05:06:14 PMI do think I will postpone the woman's blouses until my daughter heads off for college at summer's end.

S

When you do, look into button up blouses, they are easy to get away with.

Cracks me up, you keep acting like you are not as outgoing, yet you are the one growing things.

Quote from: NickSister on April 17, 2008, 04:54:25 PM
The male front for me is becoming increasingly painful to put on and to maintain. Even just looking at clothes makes me despondent, angry and depressed. I love crowds yet I can no longer stand to be in one for long. I don't think I could ever be comfortable just working with what I got. I don't know if it will ever be worth it, I got a lot to lose (wife and family). The whole situation is just tragic. Nobody wins. So it is a choice between Fear of the unknown yet possibility filled future laced with pain vs the fear of a future with only one possibility which is living in the shadow of misery.

I would say follow what a few others here have done, start off small and slow.
Hair removal, slight clothing changes, minor eyebrow shaping. This sort of thing can do more than you think without causing issues with other people. You can always keep going if you decide or stop when it feels right. None of it is permanent and damage should be light if someone says anything.

Quote from: sd on April 17, 2008, 06:34:57 PM
I would say follow what a few others here have done, start off small and slow.
Hair removal, slight clothing changes, minor eyebrow shaping. This sort of thing can do more than you think without causing issues with other people. You can always keep going if you decide or stop when it feels right. None of it is permanent and damage should be light if someone says anything.

Yeah, I agree. I've been making slight changes for some time. I'm currently getting laser hair removal on my face. My eyebrows are pretty good at the moment, even my mum asked me to do hers the same. I've worn woman's shoes for a long time. Earrings, nail polish, feminine haircut, hair clips, socks. When I catalogue things in this way I can see how much I kind of deceived myself as to what I want. All these things do is just make it not so bad. It helped for awhile but I find I need more to keep at the same level of feeling comfortable. I'm actually not that concerned what others think and have never been that shy about expressing myself, except for with my wife, I'm going by her boundaries. My country thankfully seems more permissive than America and the law protects me in my job - it is hard to get fired here except for gross misconduct or total incompetence, you can't get fired just because someone does not like you.

QuoteMy country thankfully seems more permissive than America and the law protects me in my job - it is hard to get fired here except for gross misconduct or total incompetence, you can't get fired just because someone does not like you.

Sadly, that's probably true.  There are a lot of places in the US that are really accepting, luckily Louisville is one of them, but ever since Bush took the presidency (I refuse to say that he was elected), the religious right has come out a swingin'.  I think the populace is getting sick of them finally...I hope anyway.

(I think it's weird how Christians today, the loud ones anyway, are so self righteous and if they would just read the bible, they'd see that it was the self righteous Pharisees that Christ had such a problem with...i think most Christians don't know anything about Christ himself...but that's another thread >)

QuoteI think the trouble of trying to understand androgynes through ideas of gender is that androgynes (by definition) don't have much grasp on gender, androgyne behaviour is only gendered in retrospect or learnt societal rules after the fact.

I agree.  How can you have a gender issue if you have no grasp on gender?

Quoteif I'd been born with women's body, I would have likely been on the tomboy/butch side of expression, but as a male bodied person, lean more towards the femme.

I feel the same, but opposite.  I think I would have been a very effeminate male while I have always been a rather masculine female.  One thing that I never changed was my speech...I'm quite blunt and I (at times) have a filthy mouth (but only when it's funny or in traffic ).  And I've never suffered from that horrid infantilization of women.  I've never pretended to be stupid for attention or pretended to be weak.  Nothing irritates me more than watching women act that way in front of men.

As far as tomboys go, I think there are tomboys who are androgyne and tomboys who are binary and the same thing with femboys (reminds me of fembots...hehe), although boys are more pressured to 'be men!'  Girls get bullied the same way, but it's different too.  Girls are more psychological, I think.  They don't always go for public humiliation...

And I'm going to stop there instead of heading off on another tangent...

Quote from: Jaimey on April 17, 2008, 08:21:19 PM
And I'm going to stop there instead of heading off on another tangent...

I hope not. You just said a lot of interesting things which naturally leads to my having more questions.

Quote from: Jaimey on April 17, 2008, 08:21:19 PM
As far as tomboys go, I think there are tomboys who are androgyne and tomboys who are binary and the same thing with femboys (reminds me of fembots...hehe), although boys are more pressured to 'be men!'  Girls get bullied the same way, but it's different too.  Girls are more psychological, I think.  They don't always go for public humiliatiion.

Actually I always thought it the other way around. Boys go for the physical abuse, girls go for the public humiliation.
Well, that's what they did to me anyway.

Quote from: Jaimey on April 17, 2008, 08:21:19 PM
And I've never suffered from that horrid infantilization of women. 

Never heard of that before. What's the 'infantilization of women'?

Quote from: Simone Louise on April 17, 2008, 05:06:14 PM
In general, my body works and my relationships work. If hormone therapy takes seven years and a lifelong commitment, what will I be able to do as a 75-year-old woman that I can't in my male body. Perhaps, continuing to push the boundaries as some of you more mature androgynes do...? I do think I will postpone the woman's blouses until my daughter heads off for college at summer's end.

S

As Jaimey said, button down women's blouses or shirts can often be worn with no one getting freaked out. The only difference is often which side the buttons are.

Skirts... that's a whole other story... trust me, I know this from experience 

Quote from: Jaimey on April 17, 2008, 08:21:19 PM
Sadly, that's probably true.  There are a lot of places in the US that are really accepting, luckily Louisville is one of them, but ever since Bush took the presidency (I refuse to say that he was elected), the religious right has come out a swingin'.  I think the populace is getting sick of them finally...I hope anyway.

That's right, he didn't win the election, the supreme court appointed him. Grrrrr.

Quote(I think it's weird how Christians today, the loud ones anyway, are so self righteous and if they would just read the bible, they'd see that it was the self righteous Pharisees that Christ had such a problem with...i think most Christians don't know anything about Christ himself...but that's another thread >)

Ain't that the truth!

Z

Quote from: sd on April 17, 2008, 06:34:57 PM

Quote from: Simone Louise on April 17, 2008, 05:06:14 PMI do think I will postpone the woman's blouses until my daughter heads off for college at summer's end.

S

When you do, look into button up blouses, they are easy to get away with.

Cracks me up, you keep acting like you are not as outgoing, yet you are the one growing things.

But what I'm growing is easy to get away with. I found a company online that sells 44-A bras, but I don't need one. Yes they are growing, but slowly, slowly. They only show under a tight shirt, and I have but a few of those. And people seem to see what they expect to see. So, for me, it's about how I feel more than how I present. While I get zingers from my wife occasionally, there have been no fights. That's good, both because of my mild disposition, and because I don't have any logical arguments for any of this.

Keep laughing,
S

Quote from: Simone Louise on April 17, 2008, 10:17:29 PM

Quote from: sd on April 17, 2008, 06:34:57 PM

Quote from: Simone Louise on April 17, 2008, 05:06:14 PMI do think I will postpone the woman's blouses until my daughter heads off for college at summer's end.

S

When you do, look into button up blouses, they are easy to get away with.

Cracks me up, you keep acting like you are not as outgoing, yet you are the one growing things.

But what I'm growing is easy to get away with. I found a company online that sells 44-A bras, but I don't need one. Yes they are growing, but slowly, slowly. They only show under a tight shirt, and I have but a few of those. And people seem to see what they expect to see. So, for me, it's about how I feel more than how I present. While I get zingers from my wife occasionally, there have been no fights. That's good, both because of my mild disposition, and because I don't have any logical arguments for any of this.

Keep laughing,
S

<--not laughing. 42aa

Quote from: Simone Louise on April 17, 2008, 10:17:29 PM
But what I'm growing is easy to get away with. I found a company online that sells 44-A bras, but I don't need one. Yes they are growing, but slowly, slowly. They only show under a tight shirt, and I have but a few of those. And people seem to see what they expect to see. So, for me, it's about how I feel more than how I present. While I get zingers from my wife occasionally, there have been no fights. That's good, both because of my mild disposition, and because I don't have any logical arguments for any of this.

Keep laughing,
S

I agree it is all about how you feel, nothing else. Even with the clothes it is not about how you present, but how they make you feel. Most of what I would wear would not be easily recognized as women's clothes. Like you said, people see what they want to see.

Easy to get away is a matter of perspective, I could do the blouse, but growing breasts is beyond my level of comfort. To me what you are doing is much more daring.

And I still say you have a hell of a wife.

Posted on: April 18, 2008, 12:57:22 AM

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Quote from: NickSister on April 17, 2008, 07:16:08 PM
Yeah, I agree. I've been making slight changes for some time. I'm currently getting laser hair removal on my face. My eyebrows are pretty good at the moment, even my mum asked me to do hers the same. I've worn woman's shoes for a long time. Earrings, nail polish, feminine haircut, hair clips, socks. When I catalogue things in this way I can see how much I kind of deceived myself as to what I want. All these things do is just make it not so bad. It helped for awhile but I find I need more to keep at the same level of feeling comfortable. I'm actually not that concerned what others think and have never been that shy about expressing myself, except for with my wife, I'm going by her boundaries. My country thankfully seems more permissive than America and the law protects me in my job - it is hard to get fired here except for gross misconduct or total incompetence, you can't get fired just because someone does not like you.

Sorry, I forgot how much you have already done, I think you mentioned some of it before.

Sounds like you are running out of options and are going to have to make that decision soon.

I haven't really done anything. I think when I get some more money I might go on a shopping spree down the really cheap department store place and mix and match some lady and men's things. I would like some jeans with some sequinny things on the back pocket. I think I've got two buttonless blouses, but I thought they were just slightly more flamboyant shirts.