In another thread on passing the subject of acting came up and
acting to me implies that you are not being yourself. I do see
the need to study women and practice their traits.

If you watch women, their movements, how they walk, how they hold
themselves, the way they phrase things and then make those traits your own,
I don't see that as acting. I see that as being yourself. And, I think
Nicole said this in the other thread, maybe you get to the point where
it's no longer a conscious thought.

And I think the key, at least for me is... I can't use a trait in real time
that I'm not comfortable with... I feel fake and stiff, I feel like I'm acting... but if
I can practice something in private and make it my own, then use it in the
real world... that's not acting, it's subconscious at that point.

As I look back I think I've watched women more for ideas than as
sex objects... long before I even admitted to myself I was TS. Women's
facial expressions have fascinated me for as long as I can remember. Expressions like
like closing your eyes, looking a different direction and then opening yours
eyes is so completely female. I think facial expressions are a large part of
how women communicate and in the past, and again long before I even thought
about transitioning  I would catch myself using the same facial expressions.

Obviously now I know why I did that but a lot of times in boy mode I'm sure
people thought I was pretty fruity. I *think* it was the only thing I did
that was at all feminine, but at the time I did not realize I was doing that so who knows.

The fact that I did was pointed out to me when I was in my early 20's when my boss
came up to me and told me that one of our customers had commented on my
facial expressions, the customer was a very conservative, older,  straight laced banker and
he did not want "one of them" around. My boss told me that he assured him that I was
straight, etc. and then asked me to be careful around that customer. But he said, "You know, you
do communicate a lot with your facial expressions... and they're somewhat  feminine". I was SO
embarrassed! I had not even realized I was doing it and now someone thought I was feminine...
of course now I would hug the guy... lol... but then I wanted to crawl under a rock. That night
I told my GF about it and she was furious they even mentioned it, she said "that's just who you are,
how can you stop doing that?" As I think back those expressions were me, I had made them my own,
I had forgotten about them, I used them effortlessly without conscious thought.

That is how I need to approach passing... take the best traits of women that I'm still fascinated by,
practice them in private until I'm comfortable and forget about them. So my question is... what are those
traits I need to learn... I've got facial expressions down... they've been censored for a lot of years but
I can pull those off SO easily.

I know they teach all these these traits to GG's in girl school... so what are they? What are the most
quintessential female traits... I've got some ideas... what are yours?

Amanda

You're right, facial expressions are a big trait females share.  I don't know what the mannerisms are that I'm supposed to be adopting because it seems I do them already.  My face is rather expressive when I speak.  Heck I was on an elevator at Tekkoshocon and when I got off, this one guy was like "I feel pretty stupid right now because I thought you were a girl."  It must have been the way I was standing or I don't know because I sure didn't look the part (having 2 days worth of stubble).

Now that I think about it I don't know if there are necessarily female traits that every woman shares.  Granted it is more common for women to speak with more inflection.  Oh and not walking like a cowboy is another one.  Good posture helps too.

Well that's about all I can think of.

Hmm Never even noticed girls had different facial expressions.

The only things I can think of is:

girls sway more when they walk (but always just chalked this up to body differences - the hips, butt, and thighs make them move differently - or so I assumed it was)

girls cross their legs when they sit

girls involuntarily mess with their hair and dont realize they're doing it. usually when they're in deep thought (this one I do, the others I don't)

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 17, 2008, 02:18:33 PM

As I look back I think I've watched women more for ideas than as
sex objects... long before I even admitted to myself I was TS. Women's
facial expressions have fascinated me for as long as I can remember. Expressions like
like closing your eyes, looking a different direction and then opening yours
eyes is so completely female.

Hi Amanda,
You've actually started me practising that mannerism!  Have you any more similar tips? It's these little things that make so much difference.
Louise

Quotegirls sway more when they walk (but always just chalked this up to body differences - the hips, butt, and thighs make them move differently - or so I assumed it was)

Body differences or not... I have always censored myself in boy mode becuase that's how
I learned to walk I guess... got teased in school for it a couple of times. It's all about loose hips... the looser
the sexier and more exaggerated the walk becomes.  I've "let" myself do this when nobody was watching even before i
really admitted I was TS. (BTW you also run faster like that lol)

Quotegirls involuntarily mess with their hair and don't realize they're doing it. usually when they're in deep thought

Thats so cool Nero.. I do that alot lol

QuoteHave you any more similar tips? It's these little things that make so much difference.

Um... lets see... facial expressions (some of these might not work for ya if your older LOL)

The subtle bite of one side of the bottom lip while leaning the forehead closer ... "I want you now baby"

The turn of the head slightly while keeping your eyes locked on to theirs... "Are you sure?"

Dropping the the mouth open while pulling the chin in "I can't believe you just did that"...
this can be done smiling or angry

Mouth closed, slight pucker, pointed stare "You are in big trouble mister"

Cheezy partial smile showing a little teeth "I hear you but I don't agree"

Big smile, pointed gazing stare head cocked forward "Come talk to me... I want you now"

Head cocked to one side and turned, eyes locked "Just what are you all about?"

Mouth open, tongue touching the upper lip, head forward, eyes on you "Wanna play?"

Hand on neck, mouth slightly open, blank stare "I'm dreaming of you right now?"

Eyes rolled up "You are so lame"

Mouth slightly open, teeth clenched, tongue just poking through  "I'd like to tell you off but I'm holding back"

Head still, eyes looking off to one side "I'm thinking"

Smiling, normally... "This is me walking into the room, take my picture" (I've noticed that most females
when they are relaxed have quite a bit more facial tension and almost a slight smile, whereas men look
like they are sad when they are relaxed)

This is not an expression but females smile differently... I think men must tend to pull the upper
lip down or leave it neutral and it make the upper lip disappear. Women tend to pull the upper lip up and it makes
the lip appear bigger. It also pulls the cheeks up. It's almost like trying to move your nose up, once you learn
it it's easy to smile in a more feminine manner... it really helps us because it shows more of the upper lip and makes
the upper lip shorter and the cheeks bigger. All problems with a male face trying to look feminine.

A lot of these are related to sex... I think because women use many more non-verbal clues when
dealing with men... it's easy to give them a look that to say something stupid.

I really had no idea how many of these I had but apparently I've been taking pretty good
notes, I think I've got tons more, anybody want me to go on?

Amanda

Yes, go on. Really never noticed those things but I think youre right - that women use a lot of nonverbal cues with men.

I don't know if these will help, but here are a few of my own observations:  (disclaimer:  These are nobody's rules but my own.)

Men avoid looking at each other.  Women smile at each other as they pass.

Men hold their arms straight down.  Women's elbows are pulled in slightly towards the hips as they walk.

Men tend to hold their shoulders stiff.  Women's shoulders are relaxed and naturally back a little bit.

Men lead their walk with their shoulders.   Women seem to lead it from a spot halfway between nipple and navel.

Men often walk with their feet farther apart.  Women seem to walk slightly towards putting one foot in front of the other.  (This provides a telltale butt swing.)

Men concentrate by squinting their eyes.  Women concentrate more by lowering the chin slightly and opening the eyes wide.

Men seem to have a perpetual slight frown, or at least a neutral expression.  Women seem to have a slight smile, even when not trying.

Men look intently at someone with their head level.  Most women look intently at someone with their head slightly cocked.

Of course you know how women cross their legs differently than men.

Most men order large drinks.  Most women order medium or small.

A lot of men do not wash their hands in the rest room.  (ewwwwww)  Nearly all women do.

Maybe it goes without saying, but most women take toilet paper and wipe off the seat first.  Guys don't seem to care.  And no matter what, do not stand to pee in the bathroom.  Even in a private stall. 

No woman EVER passes up a clearance rack.  Look around and enjoy your shopping experience.  Guys are on a hunt.  They get what they want and head straight out.

I may post some more a little later.  Hope these help you start thinking, whether you agree with them or not.

Kristi

Hi Amanda,

One GG girlfriend of mine told me to just be myself that I was far more fem if I just was myself then if I tried to match another girls movements.

Guys tend to swing their sholders, Girls tend to swing their hips.  Girls take shorter steps. 

Beni

Men avoid looking at each other.  Women smile at each other as they pass. (Agree.. as a man it's easy to get ino a fight in the wrong place by staring , I've also found that if I smile at women I pass (in boy mode) they will smile back... I never did that before
HRT and it's fun )

Men hold their arms straight down.  Women's elbows are pulled in slightly towards the hips as they walk. (Agree... and they swing
their arms from the elbows)

Men tend to hold their shoulders stiff.  Women's shoulders are relaxed and naturally back a little bit. (Hummm... ever noticed that)

Men lead their walk with their shoulders.   Women seem to lead it from a spot halfway between nipple and navel. (Agree)

Men often walk with their feet farther apart.  Women seem to walk slightly towards putting one foot in front of the other.  (This provides a telltale butt swing.) (Um yea... maybe because there is somthing there?)

Men concentrate by squinting their eyes.  Women concentrate more by lowering the chin slightly and opening the eyes wide. (Yes)

Men seem to have a perpetual slight frown, or at least a neutral expression.  Women seem to have a slight smile, even when not trying. (Absolutely, this is one thing I concentrate on doing)

Men look intently at someone with their head level.  Most women look intently at someone with their head slightly cocked. (Yes, I've always done this)

Of course you know how women cross their legs differently than men. (Yes)

Most men order large drinks.  Most women order medium or small. (Me too.. and most women will order water or diet drinks...
I do too )

A lot of men do not wash their hands in the rest room.  (ewwwwww)  Nearly all women do. (Yea... ewwww... I always have)

Maybe it goes without saying, but most women take toilet paper and wipe off the seat first.  Guys don't seem to care.  And no matter what, do not stand to pee in the bathroom.  Even in a private stall.  (I've never sat in a public restroom unless there was no other choice and then I'd wipe first... double ewwwww   it makes me happy when I hear this because I just assumed guys did this... something in my brain says no no no, don't sit on that toliet seat )

No woman EVER passes up a clearance rack.  Look around and enjoy your shopping experience.  Guys are on a hunt.  They get what they want and head straight out. (Agree... and I never pass up a sale rack... even for boy stuff )

Excellent ideas Kristi

Amanda

Posted on: April 17, 2008, 11:26:30 PM

---

QuoteGuys tend to swing their sholders, Girls tend to swing their hips.  Girls take shorter steps.

Good points Beni, girls also walk much more slowly.

Amanda

What an excellent topic this is turning out to be! It's a treasure trove of hints and tips.
I'm pleased to find that I do some of these things naturally without trying. So much so that some time ago a colleague said to me "Excuse me asking but are you gay by any chance?". I instinctively replied "No!", but maybe I should have added "Close, but why not have another guess". !!

Re: Passing... what are the most quintessential female traits?

Small facial feature's, cheekbone that stick further out, Small hands and small feet, big Butt and hips, smaller upper body, feminine voice at the right pitch, big eyes, round forehead etc....

tbh, i think it depends on the woman. my support manager walks way faster than most men i see and takes HUGE steps for a woman. neither of the two girls i work with back in automotive use a lot o inflection in their voices, their more husky, kinda like mine i guess, people only make the mistake of addressing me improperly when they do it in the shop. i get to work with all kinds of women and their traits are all individual...lol


Mickie
The New Warrior Princess

Hehe, until you bunch started pointing out the facial expressions and things, I never actually thought about it, but since reading this thread I've noticed just how much of this stuff I do sunconsciously. *Giggle!* I suppose it's no wonder my mom, my ex-wife, hell every woman I know, has always been so on to my emotions and thoughts, and I'd always be wondering how my dad and my brother managed to elude her intuition...

~Simone.

QuoteI suppose it's no wonder my mom, my ex-wife, hell every woman I know, has always been so on to my emotions and thoughts

I've never thought about that, but I bet that is why my SO can read my thoughts... she is just reading my
face. LOL... Thanks Simone

Quote from: lady amarant on April 18, 2008, 09:16:12 AM
I've noticed just how much of this stuff I do sunconsciously...

And I think that's the key.

I think of all this as the natural consequence of a "mood" of sorts. Like notice when you get mad, you get all rigid and stuff, your voice changes, your expressions change... and all naturally?

Well, I think if you FEEL who you are, allow that "mood" to come out, you'll end up doing most of these things spontaneously. You'll be more genuine. I don't know if it's always a matter of studying and mimicking as it is knowing/feeling who you are and letting that show?

God knows I'm not exactly a shining example of femininity and female traits, but I'm *terrified* of ever seeming fake to people, or seeming like I'm just putting on a "persona," an "enfemme" role. Maybe that's just a hangup of mine, I dunno, as I've had a number of people tell me I need accept myself more and try to copy the women around me. But ya know, this IS me... and while I can deal with someone figuring out I was born male, I'd be totally humiliated if someone thought I was a "man acting like a woman."

But whether that fear is valid, or a product of not accepting myself fully, I just don't know...

~Kate~

That is what happened with the facial expressions for me... they just became subconscious
part of me.

So... can the same thing happen for other female mannerisms? I think they
can given enough time and private practice.

And I totally agree if the mannerism is conscious I will feel fake and I will feel like a "man acting as a women".

Amanda

Overall, women are more expressive with their entire body. Facial gestures, of course, but don't forget our hand gestures! Women usually are more descriptive, and convey femininity with their hands. Palms are open and facing up or out. Hands can be cupped, or open. I have the habit of wiggling my fingers when I gently wave good-bye. The walk conveys a mood also. I've always had the habit of tilting or otherwise moving my head side to side when I speak to other people. Women are just livelier and more animated (more fun!) with their ability to use their bodies, even while standing. I'd slowly tilt my head to the side and ask, "umm, do you really think so?" With my hand holding my elbow, and all of my weight on my back foot, front knee slightly bent while standing.

A woman can "glide" rather than walk, if the mood strikes her. In New York City, you'll also see that during the day, women tend to walk  faster; sometimes not very unlike men, aside from posture. Men   tend to look like they're leaning forwards, women more erect (shoulders back, chest out). Some women will swing their arms from the shoulders, elbows away from their bodies. Most women don't.  If you watch a large number of women, you'll see that they are all women, but not all are ladies! I'm not. I'm a woman, but I am not a lady. Few women truly are. There's a difference in presentation.

Your body language is something that you will develop. And, it is a language. I'm an average 58 year old woman, and that's how I present myself. It takes understanding of how a woman uses her body to communicate, and an understanding about who you are as a woman.

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 18, 2008, 11:35:44 AM
So... can the same thing happen for other female mannerisms? I think they can given enough time and private practice.

Practice or not, living as a female WILL socialize you, like it or not, lol. It's not that you'll see a mannerism and then mimick it until it becomes natural, you'll just gradually absorb behaviours and expressions that go along with living as Amanda.

I always thought the "tucking hair behind the ear" gesture was feminine. But women don't do it to BE feminine, they do it because having your hair in your face is incredibly annoying, lol. It'd look weird to do the motion without the hair though, and I fear that's the danger of artificially mimicking gestures without cause.

Likewise, when you deal with a guy who gets all super-chivalrous and sweet with you, it's really hard to NOT feel sorta shy and grateful and submissive. And that shows. The situation encourages it.

And so on throughout a transition, *allowing* socialization moreso than forcing it. All these traits we're listing, IMHO, are the *result* of living as a female, not the CAUSE of it.

Again, this could be a personal hangup of mine, I don't know. Seeming dishonest or fake is like THE worst thing for me EVER, so I'm a bit biased. Maybe if I "accepted myself" more I wouldn't think in terms of "fake" or not, and could do the copying thing. On the other hand though, what I've always said I wanted was to grow up as a girl, to be molded by experience moreso than intention, so... I'm havin' fun learnin' the hard way

~Kate~

Quote
Most men order large drinks.  Most women order medium or small. (Me too.. and most women will order water or diet drinks...
I do too Smiley)

KK, Ive NEVER seen this happen, though I have noticed that at restaurants, women do tend to order iced tea during the day and evening rather than coffee.....

I must live in a very backwards place... most professional women walk faster than the men do... they have determination and purpose in there movement... shoulders down and back, chest out... and they glide, one foot almost silently in front of the other <unless there in clackky heels then its a softer click click>

Women are far more observant than men are, they notice subtle changes in mood, as well as most little differences in people. Hence you got a new hair style... did you do your nails.... I love that new shade of lipstick... When did you switch to __________ and so on... women pay attention to a broad range of things.... men only notice whats right infront of there face or to a foot to either side....

On a different note, this is why men seem to be jerks... its not because they want to be, its because there unobservant... they don't pay attention to the broad range of things. Only whats staring them right in the face or a foot to either side... a very narrow view of things...

Ok... here are some more facial expressions... these are fun to try as you
read them... or maybe I'm just a dork

The Pout... you've all seen it - "You make me sad"
Eyes squinting tight lips  - "You better run, I'm about to kill you"
Eyes wide, mouth open and in a circle "Mock surprise"
Totally relaxed face, outer corner of lips turned down "I'm sad... talk to me before i kill myself"
Frown, outer corners of mouth turned up "I'm thinking and uncertain, give me a sec"
Sticking out a tongue - "I'm playful, I kinda like you, but can't tell you"
Cheeks puffed out with air, lips together "I'm gonna puke or I'm so full"
Eyes closed during a fight - "I'm so mad... I hope your not here when I open my eyes"
Eyes closed tightly, cheeks pulled up, no smile  - "That hurts"
The Yawn - "I'm bored... can we talk about me some more?"
Slight frown, eyes squinty, teeth showing, no smile - "I'm about to tear into you, bitch"

More as I think of them...

Not a facial expression but every woman I know has the baby talk down pat.

Amanda