Quote from: Nero on April 17, 2008, 08:32:08 PM

Quote from: Jaimey on April 17, 2008, 08:21:19 PM
And I'm going to stop there instead of heading off on another tangent...

I hope not. You just said a lot of interesting things which naturally leads to my having more questions.

hehe...should you be encouraging me to hijack threads?    I've been being so good, too... >

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Quote from: Jaimey on April 17, 2008, 08:21:19 PM
As far as tomboys go, I think there are tomboys who are androgyne and tomboys who are binary and the same thing with femboys (reminds me of fembots...hehe), although boys are more pressured to 'be men!'  Girls get bullied the same way, but it's different too.  Girls are more psychological, I think.  They don't always go for public humiliatiion.

Actually I always thought it the other way around. Boys go for the physical abuse, girls go for the public humiliation.
Well, that's what they did to me anyway.

Maybe there are no rules for bullying.  I always thought girls were the type to whisper behind your back just loud enough for you to hear and they get people to stop being friends with you.  Really, though, bullying isn't related to gender.  It seems to happen to everyone.  I wasn't bullied...as far as I know anyway, but I'm rather oblivious to what's going on around me.  I could've been made fun of all my life and I never would have known.    But then again, where I lived, we'd all known each other since kindergarten pretty much and I think it's harder to bully someone you've known your whole life and probably been friends with at some point.  Even people who would have been easy targets were usually treated fairly well (not really befriended...but) by the popular kids.  I think I was quite lucky to not have a lot of bullying around me (now if only the academic quality had been better...)

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Quote from: Jaimey on April 17, 2008, 08:21:19 PM
And I've never suffered from that horrid infantilization of women. 

Never heard of that before. What's the 'infantilization of women'?

That's when women act stupid around men or act weak.  It's mostly done for attention and because "that's what men want".  It's hard to describe.  We watched a video in school once and this woman said something like, "I hope there's coffee" (very valley girl) when the speaker talked about getting up early and the speaker went off on her a bit about the infantilization of women.  I wish I had a good example...poop.  I can't think of any...dictionary.com defines it as "to treat or regard as infantile or immature."

Quote from: sd on April 17, 2008, 04:37:10 PM

Quote from: NickSister on April 17, 2008, 04:16:37 PM
I'm a female androgyne in a male body....I think this is the closest to how I feel.

Welcome to the club.

The next question is, is it worth doing what needs to be done to achieve that or can you make yourself comfortable and work with what you have.

I believe I'm a male androgyne in a female body. Or at least, that's how it feels to me right now. Three weeks before the onslaught of male feelings, I had bought 3 bras and felt really comfortable in them. Gender-specific feelings are flying all over the place around here. Or perhaps I fit into the bi-gender area. Or tri-gender, since I do have androgyne feelings. Hmm.

Anyway, the question asked is a good one. I hope I can feel good about what I have right now with perhaps only some male clothing. But sometimes I am afraid I will need more than that.


Thoughtfully,
Jordan

yeah.  it's not easy.  I think some people think it's just a party for us.

Quote from: Zythyra on April 16, 2008, 01:22:29 PM

Although I currently dress as male, it's because of work, etc. In a perfect world, where one didn't have to fear for one's safety if they didn't conform to societal gender expression, I would choose to dress much more feminine, but without trying to pass as female.

Z

thats what I would love to do
dream -
female hair
breasts
beard

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QuoteAnd I've never suffered from that horrid infantilization of women.

QuoteNever heard of that before. What's the 'infantilization of women'?

That's when women act stupid around men or act weak.  It's mostly done for attention and because "that's what men want".  It's hard to describe.  We watched a video in school once and this woman said something like, "I hope there's coffee" (very valley girl) when the speaker talked about getting up early and the speaker went off on her a bit about the infantilization of women.  I wish I had a good example...poop.  I can't think of any...dictionary.com defines it as "to treat or regard as infantile or immature."

Right, well, I can't get the piccy thing to work , so if you go to http://inventorspot.com/files/images/rush_1.img_assist_custom.jpg then you'll see the perfect example (we did it in English back in high school) - children and animals are often called "naughty", but I can't think of a single instance when a man has been dubbed "naughty". Bad, yes, but naughty? Can't use such an infantile word for a masculine man, now, can we? But for a *woman*... So yeah, anyway, this is meant to be advertising something that's more or less "fat free" - so why is the woman necessary? As a visual aid of what "a little bit naughty" could be. Not a child painting on walls, or a dog lifting its leg against a couch, or a man leaving Playboy magazines lying around his house for all to see. No, a woman with a tat .

No offence to anyone out there, by the way. I just hate the use of sex (particularly of women) in advertising. Honestly! If I buy a sofa from a shop which advertises its couches with beautiful women sitting on them, do I get the model who advertised that couch? No! (And for that matter, if, for some reason, I went to buy some men's underwear, would I also get the guy who modelled it in the catalogue? Of course not! )

But enough angry ranting from me.

That is the weirdest faced woman I have seen for a long time, she actually does look like some breed of specialist posh dog...

there are historical examples of men being called naughty, but they date back to the days when naughty was a much stronger word, more like evil or wicked.

Quote from: Pica Pica on April 25, 2008, 10:56:14 AM
That is the weirdest faced woman I have seen for a long time, she actually does look like some breed of specialist posh dog...

there are historical examples of men being called naughty, but they date back to the days when naughty was a much stronger word, more like evil or wicked.

You're right...her face IS weird.  It's just off, somehow.  I can't place it.

Speaking of men and naughty, has anyone seen that episode of Courage the Cowardly Dog?  With Fred the barber?  hehehe...if you haven't, you should.  The word 'naughty' will make you shudder.    Maybe I can find it...I found it!!! 

For your enjoyment:

Actually, when I said "never heard of guys being referred to as naughty", I *did* think of the weird guy from Courage, but wasn't sure if it counted or not...should probably have known better, but hey, artistic licence...

And the only reason I've remembered the weird guy since it was on eight or so years ago (my brother was watching and I was in the same room...) was his voice. One of the many reasons I've disliked being female for so long - no matter how low I can sing, I'll never have a voice like that.

Not that it's stopped me from trying, mind you. Though it does make me feel a little bit......*naaauuuughtyyyyyyyyyyy*.

I definitely understand wanting a more masculine voice...but Freaky Fred's is not one I'd want...

i have always felt that i was born into the wrong body and i denied being male for a very long time and some days i still do but people don't understand when i say I'm actually a girl i am just born into the wrong body

To me it is a concept that I do not understand, the more I read, the more I know I do NOT understand it. Can not. I think there is really nothing to understand, seems it just IS.

What ever one comes up with... it IS NOT... What I notice.

"What we don't feel - we don't understand"

Nice try though...

Axélle
PS: after all some things are just not to be understood, only to be felt...

This thread is older than me.

Quote from: Jamie D on May 21, 2012, 05:25:49 AM
This thread is older than me.

How lucky can you BE?! Spring-chicken, eh?

Axélle

Quote from: Pica Pica on April 16, 2008, 04:12:00 PM
How do you know? All these tomboys sitting around saying, 'I wish I were Rebis.'
It's funny actually, if I were born a female bodied androgyne I reckon I would have presented myself very girly and not a tom boy at all.

Actually that's quite an interesting question/problem. *If* an androgyne (had exactly the same brain development, etc which is highly unlikely, but just for the fun of it) were born the opposite assigned gender, presumably you would still be androgyne. If androgyne is actually a third (fourth, fifth, etc) gender.

I have another question, re: transgenders who choose to present androgynously? Is that person an androgyne?

--Jay Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on May 21, 2012, 07:11:10 PM
I have another question, re: transgenders who choose to present androgynously? Is that person an androgyne?

JayJay, I know I've told you before that I love your questions, but it's worth repeating. I love your questions.

There are dueling definitions of Androgyne. Susan says someone "Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior". Genderwiki(http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Androgyne) says "An androgyne is a transgender individual who does not cleanly fit into binary male or female gender roles".

According to Susan's definition, a TG who presents androgynously would be an androgyne. According to genderwiki, maybe not, if he/she cleanly fit in one of the binary gender roles.

I like the genderwiki definition better (Sorry Susan. Your site is awesome in every other way...) By Susan's definition I'm not really an androgyne. I've never made any effort to present myself androgynously. I'd love to be treated androgynously (or better, I'd love to be treated as a woman, but that ain't happening). However, I don't want to confuse anyone or blow any binary circuits forcing them to try to categorize me. If you'd met me, you'd think I was just an ordinary man, a tad on the skinny side.

But I think I am an androgyne. By the genderwiki definition, I have male and female parts to my personality and therefore I wouldn't fit cleanly in either gender role. For what it's worth (not much actually), COGIATI and SAGE both classify me as an androgyne.

So I guess the answer to your question is that it depends on which definition you go with.

Quote from: agfrommd on May 21, 2012, 07:59:30 PM
So I guess the answer to your question is that it depends on which definition you go with.

Susan's definition looks more like a definition of androgynous than androgyne.  It seems to be conflating gender and presentation.

Thanks agfrommd! 

At the risk of answering my own question: it's not a choice. I didn't wake up one morning and think it would be a really cool thing to be an androgyne. OTOH, I have met (online nobody in RL) several FTMs that went thru a period of being androgyne or at least thinking they were.

Actually come to think of it, not sure to what extent "tomboy" or "femboy" is a choice. I'm wondering re: a spectrum that includes many people that don't clearly fit (since I don't buy into the binary anyway...) Though how much of this is all gender expression. We know just how silly all the gender stereotyping can be.

--Jay Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on May 21, 2012, 09:43:33 PM
it's not a choice. I didn't wake up one morning and think it would be a really cool thing to be an androgyne.

Yeah, I have the same experience. My non-binariness, whatever label you give it is who I am. It's me. It's not a choice. I've got no one else to be but me.

However, I'm experiencing the questions of how I present myself as a choice. Do I adopt an appearance that makes my gender hard to distinguish? (Probably won't work, a lot of trouble, and will confuse people). Do I crossdress now and then so I can experience being treated as a woman? (No, there too. Not honest, lots of trouble, wouldn't solve anything, but might be fun). By process of elimination, I'll probably end up presenting as a man with one or two feminine touches to my appearance to remind people I'm not male "all the way through".

i know boys who're much girlier than me and girls who are a lot more boyish than me.
but for some reason, i'm the one who's stuck in this odd androgyne place where i don't really know whether i'm both or none, while they manage to identify as the same gender as their birth sex.

i've no idea why, it's just the way it is. a femboy is a boy, just very feminine, a tomboy is a girl, just very boyish. and i can't find anywhere to fit in properly, i'm not a manly man or girly girl, neither am i a tomboy or femboy. though i do come off as a tomboy a lot of the time, since that is the closest i get to being all of me, or less of what i'm not. can't really be sure of which it is

As I see it, tomboys and femboys (which is a new word to me, and odd how it's asymmetrical) are simply people who disdain many of the typical standards of dress and behavior for their gender, but they don't really question their gender much.

It is simpler for society to understand them, because almost everyone understands rebellion against pointless restrictions, and it doesn't defy the gender binary.

While I like some things that are considered femimine, I am not girly... in fact I resent being seen as "sissy" or effeminate, while at the same time really not being manly in most aspects.