Pamela, I think you and I are twins! I sync with everything you wrote, except for body hair and being accepted by women.

Allie

Quote from: amandam on May 25, 2019, 09:21:53 PM
The thought that the more you feminize, the more you get dysphoric is troubling. What if you found a way to cope with a little bit of dysphoria and therefore could prevent transition?

I don't think I would put it like that.  My experience is that the more I feminized, the less dysphoria I felt.

It is like listening to a radio that is playing very loud, annoying music.  You cope with it by turning the volume way down.  That's how I coped and prevented transition for so long: by keeping my feelings turned way, way, way down.  Then I put an end to the loud music and was able to turn the volume up a bit.  That allowed me to be aware that there was still annoying music playing, just not as loud as before.  I am working on that now.  Eventually, I will be able to turn the volume up and listen to the soothing music that was in the background all the time.  As I turn the volume up and allow my feeling to flow, I can enjoy life much more.

Allie

I have noticed we have so much in common.

Just to be precise, I feel that I AM accepted by woman and the friendships are both ways; I just feel I have further to go or more to learn socially.

That reduces our differences to just one which is Body Hair. I assume that you did not like it but just "lived with it"?

Hugs

Pamela

Pamela, I have always had low T so the only body hair I have is light on my arms and legs, and I am noticing that getting finer, so may not need removal (though I will probably need to shave legs ). It's always been great to relate to women, though the awkwardness I have with men has left me uncomfortable around them.

We are closer than I thought!

Allie

Quote from: F_P_M on May 25, 2019, 02:22:27 PM
Interesting and yes, for sure.

Mental: I have since I was in my late teens described myself as a "male brain in a female body" so i'd say yep, definitely not a girl mentally. Femaleness bewilders me, utterly.

Physical: I'm kinda accustomed to my body but I don't LOVE it. I really enjoy my masculine traits, not so much the feminine ones (like boobs). I can live like this, but i'm waaaaaay more comfortable than I ever have been dressed in men's clothing and with short hair and strapped down boobs. I mean it's astounding how much difference that's made. I'd say i'm kinda in the middle here. I'd like fewer obvious sex traits but I don't mind not looking 100% male male super male. I just want to be happy with how I look.

Social: I generally socialise male anyway and have done since I was about 12. All my friends are either male or very tomboyish women who don't expect me to be feminine. There are SOME things i'm going to find difficult though, hyper friendliness isn't generally as acceptable in males for example, nor is talking to random children (I love kids okay?). But ultimately i'm kinda accustomed to presenting as a very boyish girl anyway so it's not that much of a difference. Only thing that really changes is pronouns.

I have a fourth too.

Biochemical.

My body hates being female, it can't do female hormones at all. It sucks at it. It doesn't work properly due to several genetic issues and ultimately, it's caused massive biochemical confusion. To fix it I either saturate myself in feminine hormones that make me sick (legitimately sick) or I do what feels more natural, I take testosterone.
I feel like my biochemistry is as wrong as my physical but it's actually more acute than my external dysphoria so deserves its own category i think.
The fact that I find the effects of t on my system to be the few things about my body I LIKE and the fact that feminising hormones make me critically sick further suggests to me that actually, i'm not supposed to be female. And that brings me a degree of comfort and clarity.

I'm super curious about how you feel is you saturate yourself with female hormones?  I would say that my attempt to "male" myself with Testosterone causes me to feel tons of anxiety to the level that I would say it makes me sick. 

Quote from: JanePlain on May 26, 2019, 08:56:00 AM
I'm super curious about how you feel is you saturate yourself with female hormones?  I would say that my attempt to "male" myself with Testosterone causes me to feel tons of anxiety to the level that I would say it makes me sick. 

Oh it physically makes me ill. I'm apparently extremely sensitive to estrogen and progesterone, potentially all hormones which makes hrt a little scary but i'm really really really hoping T won't cause such major reactions.

Estrogen even at microdoses causes my blood pressure to spike to dangerous levels, VERY dangerous levels and meant my doctors all panicked and told me I wasn't allowed to take it at all ever again. Not that I was that upset because estrogen also gives me headaches, hot flushes, nausea, sleep disturbances, migraines with aura (I go blind in one eye temporarily, it's really annoying), I swell up with fluid retention, my chest becomes too tender to even have clothing brush it without pain and I become a psychotic stabby mess who wants to curb stomp people for minor things and is just a monster.
It's BAD. I'm not me on estrogen at all, it makes me crazy and unwell. And that's just the levels my body naturally produces!

Progesterone makes me nauseated but it also has the annoying problem that once you stop taking it you bleed... and bleed... and bleed. In my case like a stuck pig (tmi?) and that in turn leads to health problems due to massive blood loss. Last time I was put onto it (the progesterone only pill) I apparently turned a "funny shade of grey" and my flatmates dragged me to the hospital while I weakly protested that I was fine really. I wasn't fine. The doctor who saw me actually said they should never have given me progesterone knowing my cycles were as horrific as they were anyway. Nice.

Put simply, I react poorly to female hormones and they make me very ill. Both psychologically and physically. Which adds to my biochemical dysphoria massively.
When i'm feeling disconnected from my body because my emotions aren't my own and everything hurts and I just want to curl up and die because im in so much pain, it's difficult not to feel like your own body is poisioning you.

And genuinely that's how I feel. My body is poisioning me. And I need it to stop. A lot of my life doctors have tried various feminising hormones on me and every time they've made me feel worse. Not neccisarily physically but psychologically as well. I remember at one point I was on hormone drugs to make me ovulate and I had moments where I genuinely had to fight the urge to tear my husband's throat out with my TEETH. I mean it was terrifying! I would be overcome with such intense homicidal rage. I lost my damn mind.

Of course, sometimes I wonder if that's the primary reason for my trans feelings but then I remember that my masculine traits actually please me and have NEVER caused me dysphoria (while most cis women find excess body and facial hair absolutely mortifying. I just find it funny as heck) and i've never understood femininty at all. I always felt like a wierd imposter in groups of women, awkward and just... wrong.
While with guys I feel natural and comfortable and like I can be my genuine self. And i've felt that way since childhood.
So it can't JUST be my hormonal disorder. It's just the hormonal issues have made living in a body i'm sort of numb toward all the more untennable. If that makes sense. I never fit in with the girls even before puberty hit and ruined my life.

I've always had low key physical dysphoria but because I could socially relieve it so effectively I could just ignore it most of the time and really, ultimately, I didn't realise I had any choice in the matter anyway. I just made do with what I had because I didn't think I could do anything else. I used to say "i'm a male brain in a female body but the consolation is it's not a BAD female body" or "but at least it's a hot body" (lol)

At its worst in my late teens and early 20s my condition made me want to die but these days I have things to actually live for.
I wonder also if my brush with death last august (i had sepsis, they have no idea what caused it. Fun) coupled with me finally getting effective anti depressants has made me reassess what I actually want to do with the time I have left. Because i've sort of accepted that i'm unlikely to live a LONG life, i'm too chronically unwell, there's too much wrong with me. But I think i'd rather at least attempt to be happy in myself and comfortable in my own skin before I go you know? Nowadays finding a solution just seems more sensible than ending it all.

but the way my female hormones make me feel really is utterly intollerable. I can't live with the psychological aspects nor the physical any more. The idea of having to go on feminising hrt honestly fills me with dread and makes me feel sick. It's the one thing that's stopped me getting my ovaries removed, not the fear of surgery but the fear of feminising hrt. A lifetime of having to take estrogen just... oh god no. I've tolerated the pain of cysts (which hurt like hell) for decades in preferance to having to take female hrt. I'd LOVE to have these cystic swollen damaged things outta me, they're not well organs at all, but hrt is a problem.

My husband actually wonders if the cysts are why I nearly died of septic shock last year. And you know, he makes a sound case. They never found the cause and decided it was gynocological but never decided what it was. There's a chance one of them ruptured and that's what caused the issue.
It's certainly more likely than the mystery disappearing UTI the doctors claimed I had that miraculously had no symptoms at all and no evidence of having ever existed. -_-

Thank you Allie and hoping you will not need BHR.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: F_P_M on May 26, 2019, 09:37:07 AM
. They never found the cause and decided it was gynocological but never decided what it was. There's a chance one of them ruptured and that's what caused the issue.
It's certainly more likely than the mystery disappearing UTI the doctors claimed I had that miraculously had no symptoms at all and no evidence of having ever existed. -_-

If they would have applied a little more due diligence, they should have found the reason.  I cannot recall a single case in which we were not able to find the reason of a major infection!

I haven't read the book either but I can comment on those catorgories.

1) Social - Zero dysphoria completely solved

2) Physical - After Orchie I was hoping to like my body, but this is not the case.  I think I need SRS in the near future!

3) Mental - This was never a problem for me, my mind just followed the lead of my body.  Because of the fact that I was "made" into a male, I think my mind never really grasped the fact that I was not supposed to be a female.  I think once my body decided it had enough with that male stuff it tried to achieve but never could, my mind jumped onto the bandwagon and mind an body had a great ride!

Oh no apparently it's quite common to not figure out what caused septic shock. Or so i've been told.

I think by that point whatever triggered the original infection was loooong gone. But i'm still certain it wasn't a uti because i've never known of a uti that did NOT have symptoms that were pretty dang obvious.
And so they kinda shrugged and went "probably gyno then"
which is almost as useless as "idiopathic"

Quote from: F_P_M on May 26, 2019, 02:05:09 PM
Oh no apparently it's quite common to not figure out what caused septic shock. Or so i've been told.

because they either don't want to go the route or do not have the education for it.  I made my living in research in infection control & prevention.  I bet you that we were able to find any cause of any infection!
\

Quote
I think by that point whatever triggered the original infection was loooong gone. But i'm still certain it wasn't a uti because i've never known of a uti that did NOT have symptoms that were pretty dang obvious.
And so they kinda shrugged and went "probably gyno then"
which is almost as useless as "idiopathic"

By analyzing the bacteria, or their effluents that caused the septic shock, they would have found the cause of it.  But most physicians have anything more but bar bones training in microbiology, and very often don't understand the concepts and dynamics of the pathogens.

Quote from: KathyLauren on May 26, 2019, 07:40:26 AM
I don't think I would put it like that.  My experience is that the more I feminized, the less dysphoria I felt.

It is like listening to a radio that is playing very loud, annoying music.  You cope with it by turning the volume way down.  That's how I coped and prevented transition for so long: by keeping my feelings turned way, way, way down.  Then I put an end to the loud music and was able to turn the volume up a bit.  That allowed me to be aware that there was still annoying music playing, just not as loud as before.  I am working on that now.  Eventually, I will be able to turn the volume up and listen to the soothing music that was in the background all the time.  As I turn the volume up and allow my feeling to flow, I can enjoy life much more.

Thank you so much for explaining it this way. I can relate to this much more.i also think of it as being mistuned so two stations are blending together making noise.
It seems some days I am more sensitive to the annoying music more then other days, or even hours.
Things that have helped me include wearing panties full time, finally shaving my legs/arms/front side of body, and recently a properly fitting bra. Also knowing the date for my HRT starting appointment helps a lot.

Prior to trying the panties, I only related to them as sex related for men, once i tried, i was very much relieved to find out they did not do that, they helped me to feel calmer.

I suppose that I am slowly fine tuning into the proper station, and is much less annoying, almost pleasant at times.

What's really messing with my head right now is those days where your brain goes "oh hey, so, maybe it's not so bad to just stay how you are now? Transitioning is a big deal, let's just not do it, that'd be fine right?" and I go "huh... was I wrong?" and then I start doubting myself and 24 hours pass and i'm back to "GIVE ME T NOW!"

How the heck do you deal with that whiplash? I mean is that normal to have days where you don't really feel that BAD about your body or at least can sort of mostly tolerate it?

It seems strange to sort of wish for constant dysphoria and body issues but at the same time, dangit, if it was constant it'd be far easier for me to know I was doing the right thing.

Maybe those days are the "singing along to the annoying song because you think, just for a brief while, maybe this song isn't so bad after all. I mean it's sorta catchy" and then reality kicks in and you're back to going "oh stop playing this damn song already!"

Quote from: F_P_M on May 26, 2019, 04:13:43 PM
How the heck do you deal with that whiplash? I mean is that normal to have days where you don't really feel that BAD about your body or at least can sort of mostly tolerate it?

It is totally normal!  We have had umpteen years of practise coping with the wrong gender.  We are really good at it, and it is second nature to us.  So it feels "normal".  We are able to suppress the dysphoria without effort because we are so good at doing so.

But of course it is still there, and when we fatigue of suppressing it, it becomes apparent again.

Trust me, I know well how this cycle works, because I did it much longer than many people here!

1.  Mental:  OMGeezers I'm a total girly girl.
2.  Physical:  I'm still trying to get FFS.  I would love to have VFS and bottom surgery but my wife doesn't want me to.  Once FFS is done I'm going to be looking at a nose job (not covered by Kaiser FFS), BA, and fat transfer from waist to thighs/hiney.
3.  Social:  it turns out I socialize far better as a girl than I ever did as a guy.

Hugs, Carly

I guess I am a little bit late on this thread, but I wanted to give some feedback on the book itself. I bought it on Kindle last summer and read it, but didn't do any of the exercises. Later, when I started my therapy sessions and I asked my therapist if there is anything I can do at home between sessions she recommended that book to me, so I started typing my thoughts and experiences in the spaces provided (it is actually kind of a workbook designed to move the reader along on a path of self-discovery for those of us who are unsure about their gender identity).

I have a feeling that it is written for a younger audience (I am in my 50ies), probably primarily teenagers to young adults. That doesn't mean that it isn't useful for older folks as myself, just certain situations, like wife or children are not really covered. Or, reflections just stop at adolescence and young adult years are not included.

I like that the book addresses shame, guilt and fear and encourages the reader to experiment and explore what feels right when it comes to ones gender expression and helps the reader figure out ones true gender identity by experimenting and seeing what resonates and what doesn't.

As far as myself, I am still experimenting, but I have come along a good way. I have to admit that my hopes of being not transgender have not materialized, as none of my experiments or explorations has led me in that direction. Whatever I did on the female side, like going out to support meetings as female, going out in public as female (so far only twice), resonated very much with me and just felt good and reconfirming. So, in that sense that book really helped me a lot.

Quote from: Iztaccihuatl on May 27, 2019, 01:14:26 AM


I like that the book addresses shame, guilt and fear and encourages the reader to experiment and explore what feels right when it comes to ones gender expression and helps the reader figure out ones true gender identity by experimenting and seeing what resonates and what doesn't.

I get fear... but fear is easy enough to face one at a time. One thing I never ever identified was shame and guiit. My ex tried to make me feel guilty about being me. I refuse! I'm me and I'm just the way I'm supposed to be. To feel shame about being yourself is counterproductive and foolish.

Shame, never, but guilt I DO get. The guilt of causing stress and grief to the people I love. The guilt of putting a strain on my relationship with my husband and forcing him to explore a side of his sexuality he's never really thought much about and stripping his straight male privilage from him effectively overnight.
The guilt of how our kids will handle it and that worry it'll somehow mess them up or lead to them being teased.
The guilt that now the people who love me worry about my safety.
I feel guilty because I want surgery and my husband is terrified of me going under because i've nearly died 3 times already in our relationship and he's absolutely panicking about losing me. (last time apparently I had a 40% chance of not making it which is freaking terrifying)

I feel I suppose a little shame in that I feel bad for not realising my gender identity till NOW. 10 years into a marriage with 3 children I finally went "waaaait a minute..." it still feels wierd to me that I didn't cotton on to things sooner.
Looking back there are SO MANY hints and clues but I ignored every single one of them and it makes me feel kinda... dumb and unobservant.
And so when I come out to people and they argue there was "no hint" and it's "come out of nowhere" I feel stupid and foolish and I dunno, it makes me indignant because it highlights how much I just ignored or compartmentalised for all those years. And I feel DUMB for not realising sooner that saying "I have a male brain in a female body" meant I was trans. *headdesk*

But definitely get the guilt. I don't want to rock the boat, i don't want to hurt the people I love. If I didn't have those attachments, those responsibilities maybe the doubt wouldn't be so strong but the doubt is tangled up WITH the guilt, telling me "oh it's not so bad, you can live like this. It'd be easier for everyone ELSE"
And ultimately the fact is my dysphoria isn't severe enough for transition to be critical yet. It sucks, sure, but I CAN live with it at the moment. It makes me sad, it stresses me out but i CAN push it down and plod on for the good of those around me.
It's not going to kill me. And so I suppose there's a part of me who tells me it's self indulgent to pursue this direction.
I'm very very bad at putting myself first, my brain will always find ways to make me feel selfish or foolish or irresponsible for doing so.

and that right there is the guilt.

Yuck.

But then I get these wonderful moments where I catch a glimpse of my face in the mirror as I climb the stairs and for a brief moment before I start nitpicking my brain goes "oh hi there young man" and it makes me smile.
for the first time in so long, longer than I can remember, I look in the mirror and I see ME, not an imposter and it's so strange. He looks happier, healthier even. And all that took to bring him out was cutting my hair short like i'd wanted to for 15 odd years.

I never thought I looked much like a girl despite my mother's insistance that I was a "pretty girl". I would look in the mirror and try to see this girl and not see her and I suppose I assumed that was just because my mother was biased and I wasn't pretty, rather than I wasn't a girl. But I think looking back my brain simply couldn't SEE the feminine. and now with my hair short I look more and more like myself, like the person I saw beyond that reflection.

It's sort of surreal to be honest. But it's also been very good for my mental health to allow myself to let go of gender conformity and be ME instead of the girl society told me I had to be.

I'm finally actually CONFIDENT about my body. I'm not trying to hide my stomach or feeling humilated about my legs. I'm at last allowed to actually like parts of me I always DID like but was taught I wasn't "allowed" to like because they weren't "feminine".
I don't feel as much body dysmorphia presenting as a boy which is really interesting. i thought my dysmorphia was weight related and to be fair, a lot of it WAS but it seems to have been more than that because since abandoning attempting to squish myself into female clothing and wearing clothes that make me comfortable my weight has felt like far less of an issue. I don't look in the mirror and see a fat bloated whale attempting to wear a dress. I just see a person. Maybe carrying a little extra weight but there's far less criticism from my brain, far less "ew you're so disgusting, I hate you, I want to stick a pin in my skin and see if I deflate like a balloon" thoughts. I've stopped fantasising about hurting myself and i've started to take photos of myself again. I can stand to see myself in photos or in the mirror, it doesn't make me feel uneasy and disgusting and like an imposter is wearing my skin as a poorly fitted suit.

So I mean, despite my guilt and such, this revelation HAS been good for me. Yes it's stressful, yes it's hard, yes there are days the doubt and guilt is very strong and i start to question myself and chicken out. But ultimately, the fact I am no longer wanting to hide away, the fact i'm not feeling such disgust and anger and hatred toward my body is HUGE.
How much of that is the fact I now have actual antidepressants that work and how much of that is finally acknowledging my gender identity I dunno, but I feel more psychologically well than I have in well.. decades.

So take that guilt! I counter that my mental health or rather declining mental health is gonna screw my family up waaaay more than me growing some extra body hair and getting a deeper voice ever could.

and I have to keep reminding myself of that when I get into a shame spiral.