When someone's youth is lost to testosterone and policed masculine gender roles, they quite understandably may try to recapture that and dress in ways that are more in your face for people their age.

If I was one of those people and I went to a popular trans support site like Susans and saw that at least one of my local support groups attendees compared me to an un made up drag queen, we would have a problem. One of us would have to leave that group. Cos I wouldn't go there and express myself knowing I'm being harshly judged and by who.

Welcome to the world of woman. We judge other woman each day for the way they dress. If you want to be a woman get used to it.

girls criticize me, so I rather have the company of men, they're kind and most do what I want if I smile enough, regarding trans girls I don't know, I know no trans girl in person, I'd like to tho', it might be fun

Quote from: Amoré on May 28, 2019, 01:08:40 AM
Welcome to the world of woman. We judge other woman each day for the way they dress. If you want to be a woman get used to it.

A trans woman does not have to accept harsh judgement to be a woman and should speak up.  Toxic presences should be removed from a person's safe spaces regardless of gender.

Expecting people to "get used to it" in a support group  eliminates trust in said group and undermines it's purpose. To the point where they may as well disband.   

Quote from: JMJW on May 28, 2019, 04:53:07 AM
A trans woman does not have to accept harsh judgement to be a woman and should speak up.  Toxic presences should be removed from a person's safe spaces regardless of gender.

Expecting people to "get used to it" in a support group  eliminates trust in said group and undermines it's purpose. To the point where they may as well disband.   

No one ever judged her to her face and told her that she looks like that did they? So no harm done to that person and she was left to be. So Linde never did any harm at all to that person.

But the funny part in this Groups they judge CIS people harshly. I was so disgusted with this because those CIS people is my friends my family my co-workers my fiance they fall under the "CIS" umbrella then.

I admit I kinda only skimmed a lot of the replies here but honestly? Friendships based on one SOLE trait (like transness, or gayness, or liking football or shoes or something) are always a doomed enterprise. Just because you have ONE thing in common doesn't mean you have everything in common nor that you'll get along as people.

the trans community is varied as heck and thinking all trans people should be bffs is like saying all brunettes should get along great because of that one shared trait.

I look at my friendship groups over the years and the people who i've really clicked with have been people who share my love for life, accept my wierdness in all forms (I'm a really wierd person okay?) and don't judge me. We share interests for the most part (we're all major geeks) but we of course have things that are ours and ours alone (one is a musician, one an artist, one loves football, another is a workaholic super focused on career) but we get along because we, as individuals have enough shared attitudes to enjoy one another's company.

It's sort of like when you're a kid and your parents FORCE you to be "friends" with other kids because they're in your class or they live next door and you never actually get on but you fake it because you have to.

Ultimately, people are so varied and so individual. You gravitate toward those who make you feel like you can be your genuine self. That's friendship after all.

And it's nothing to be ashamed of to not get along with someone in your community. There's no rule saying all trans people should love one another and all get along and never argue and all be the same mind.

I mean dang, I keep getting told i'm not "allowed" to like certain things or act or dress in certain ways because it's "not masculine enough" and i'm like "please, get outta my face."
Point is, we don't ALL have to get along. Sometimes it's not even dislike it's just you have NOTHING to talk about, no common ground and zero chemistry to continue interacting beyond the neccisary enounters. Not everyone you meet is gonna be your friend, even if they're super nice. That's just not how the world works.

I agree with others saying girls are the worst for judgement. That said, I have known some pretty two faced guys too. Thing is though, guys are far more likely to say it to your face in my experience, while girls just snip behind your back.
But my personal experience with gendered groups is far far better versed in male relationships as I haven't really surrounded myself with girls since I was 12. I have one or two female friends, but I wouldn't say we were close.
My male circle are my friends for life.

And you know, i'm actually kinda thankful I got out when I did. I don't have the patience for it and interestingly, cultivating a very masculine friendship group seems to have saved me an awful lot of the mysogynistic interactions many women describe. Maybe because I always had guys around me? Or because I was not behaving in a generally percieved feminine manner? Whatever the case, i find it kinda... jarring actually when I read all these articles of women about my age talking about how much horrible stuff guys have done to them over the years and it gives statistics and it's like MOST women this is what their daily life is and i'm sitting there going "wait what?"
I mean dang, how effectively did I ditch womanhood? I must be extremely ridiculously lucky.
But it makes me wonder how much I can actually reasonably claim to have been "socialised female" as a result.

FPM (et al) I've been told that I focused too much on appearance and that appearance wasn't the 'point' of being a woman. I got that message loud and clear from all members of a therapy group I used to participate in, ironically they also never accepted me as a woman and also made it clear that my lack of interest in passing was part of that ("I wasn't willing to work hard enough to be passable as a woman").

That's a fairly true fit for the "double bind" theory for genesis of schizophrenia.

Quote from: JMJW on May 28, 2019, 04:53:07 AM
A trans woman does not have to accept harsh judgement to be a woman and should speak up.  Toxic presences should be removed from a person's safe spaces regardless of gender.

Expecting people to "get used to it" in a support group  eliminates trust in said group and undermines it's purpose. To the point where they may as well disband.   

Well and good, however how do people learn not to make those harsh judgements without participating in the 'safe space'? Those are essential points to doing interpersonal work: to learn how to deal with differences both in receiving them (because we know they aren't going away in all the places we have to go in order to live our lives) ... and on the part of the judging person, how to express lack of understanding of someone's life/expression/reality without doing them harm.

Now I agree we might think especially trans people would learn not to pigeonhole people into narrow views of gender. Somehow that isn't the case all the time.

I get dirty looks often enough on the bus, shopping etc. I just make eye contact, let them know they can't harsh my mellow. Same thing in closer interpersonal relationships ... ymmv

Quote from: Linde on May 27, 2019, 01:32:46 AM
I think so, but that was the way we were brought up.  We overcame that mostly, and gave them more freedom in our country than they ever will have in the US! I think it is very much my business, if people are in MY face! They can march as much as they want, but when I listen to the reaction of my cis friends, these marches do not earn them a lot of sympathy!
I also do not want to be dragged into these marches, and even tough I am three letters "ITL" out of their logo, I do not feel any real connection to them.  I did not do any pride marches when I was hetero, and I will not do any now that I am lesbian.I am like you, I happened to become a lesbian, because I became a woman.  My sexual orientation did not change, but i don't have any kinks that I am aware of, I am just a pretty boring older woman who happens to be a lesbian.

Excuse me, (Germany? Netherlands?) may at this time afford more protections for LGBT people than (some sections) of the US, I don't much care what your nation does and on the other hand I reject the notion that any nation state can 'give' someone freedoms. We are free by definition, free will is something all people have. Rather I would say the state exists to on the one hand restrict most people's freedoms in often quite drastic ways (American's seem to believe that our nation has a lock on this subject, ironic given there are very few places in the US where one can simply have a beer in a public place ... I could go on). The other main purpose of the state is to protect us from each other and again the LGBTQ pride movement very much exists because we used to be seen as inherently evil. At least today the pendulum has swung some on that as far as law goes.

It seems your definition of 'in your face' is how people choose to attire themselves (and yes pride parades are known for fairly over-the-top fashion expressions. Guess what? beatings at the hands of our fellow citizens have been the norm in the past, are certainly still the norm in some places. Same goes for walking down the street holding the hand of a same-sex partner. Please remember Linde when you reject pride marches that people still die for expressions that simple. You find that how we express ourselves makes you not like us? Well that's exactly why we're out there.

Lastly, I don't think you're at any risk of being 'dragged' to a pride parade. However I would ask you to look at your activism and if your notion of what you think is worthy of your time and effort can't exist without someone else's activism being 'wrong' in your eyes then (in my view, you're welcome to disagree) there's a problem.

In my view nobody is free until we all are. That's why I'm a feminist, that's why if I work toward freedom for trans women then I work hard to also be thinking about cis women also and gay men and lesbians and people of color. I also remember that my context makes it hard for me to see the issues of people who struggle under different burdens (ability, color, financial status ... ).

Also for the record I don't spend a lot of time worrying about men / cis / heteronormative / wealthy / etc people. Yes, they're people too however having needed to blend into the world as an apparently CIS male I know very well how much privilege comes with that designation. I learned to pass as that, I survived and did well by at least a few different measures and I also hated myself more and more every time I did play that card of taking advantage of what I had learned to pass as in order to make life apparently 'easier'. It certainly was the easy path in the short run, less so over the longer term.

Quote from: Amoré on May 28, 2019, 11:09:06 AM
No one ever judged her to her face and told her that she looks like that did they? So no harm done to that person and she was left to be. So Linde never did any harm at all to that person.

How do you know that? How does Linde know that? This is a popular trans forum and this is the main subforum. And Linde's picture is right next to the post. Posting such views anyway with your picture right there on the most popular trans forum on the internet when you know there's a decent chance someone from your group might see it is for all intents and purposes saying it out loud within ear shot. Now that person still might not hear you, but they could.

Quote from: JMJW on May 29, 2019, 06:25:15 AM
How do you know that? How does Linde know that? This is a popular trans forum and this is the main subforum. And Linde's picture is right next to the post. Posting such views anyway with your picture right there on the most popular trans forum on the internet when you know there's a decent chance someone from your group might see it is for all intents and purposes saying it out loud within ear shot. Now that person still might not hear you, but they could.

Linde has no clue what she did!  Linde spoke her opinion about the group members openly in front of them, when we discussed those things.  We are pretty open in our group about things like this.
I think some people here try to interpret something into my text that was not said and not meant the way it is dragged around here now.
So, please stop it already with your interpretation, nobody asked you to be the defender of the poor trans children!


Let me say it once more very clear, every person in my support group knows pretty well what my feelings are, and hey can also identify me by my picture for the case there are members here.

They seem to do well when we talk about it, I guess they don't need any knights in shining armor in this forum either!