I'm sorry if this has been beaten to death but being non passing is rough as a TS

I specify being a TS because I hold standards for my transition and  most people my age (27 next week) think wanting to pass or assimilate ≠ transphobic so I'm not sure TG is exactly an accurate term for me anymore lol

Unfortunately I'm starting to realize it may not be in the cards for me to pass or live fully as a woman ( not that our experience would be the same as Cis anyway)

I look like a FTM TS at best and whenever I go out in full fem I just look ridiculous or people think I'm pulling their leg and laugh even though I'm in a moderately liberal area (San Diego)

I always get called sir as well and have never been gendered correctly ever

I have a manly chin and heavy brow that's very apparent in a rough side profile but not as apparent from the front anymore

Photos I feel aren't accurate and make me look more feminine than I actually am because I still see a manly fem face especially in the mirror

It's apparent everyone does as well because people just think I'm a GNC man/crossdresser or femboy gay man

These are questions you should bring up with your therapist. That is what they are there for, to help you navigate these types of issues.

Another thing you need to remember is that we are our own worst critics. What you see in the mirror is not necessarily what others see. Your reflection is a combination of images from your eyes and those stored in your brain. A therapist can help you with these issues as well.

In my hypnotherapy practice, I would discuss what we called NATs, now they call them ANTs. Automatic Negative Thoughts. It is a negative self-talk that many people experience. The way to defeat them is to closely examine them and prove they are not true.

For example: "Nothing good ever happens to me." The truth is that good things do happen to them but they are focusing on the negative.

It takes time for the changes in your body to take effect. Years even. Go easy on yourself and be patient. It will happen.

Quote from: DG619 on July 16, 2024, 01:41:51 PMItll be almost impossible to move into what I want to do now, get a better job or even a second job (I've tried the latter)

Men either look disgusted , stop and double take , or look like they want to brutally murder me

Women look genuinely creeped out , extremely uncomfortable and completely avoid being around me

I Get stared at constantly and only get a cringe pitty smile from establishment staff

Everyone outside of my coworkers who are used to me completely ignore me

We have members here who are in between jobs. It is not impossible to find work. Maybe you will find an opportunity to work from home. Maybe you could be a consultant in your field and be your own boss. We have members here who have their own businesses. It isn't impossible, just not easy.

Are you a mind reader? You don't really know if they are disgusted, creeped out, or want to murder you. This is your perception of what you think their reaction is. Maybe people stare because they like your outfit. Maybe they weren't even looking at you, but something behind you.

I am not saying your perceptions are wrong. I wasn't there so I don't know. I think you should discuss this with your therapist and see what they say.

And go easy on yourself. It will work out.
 

Move to a place that accepts non binary people.  Provincetown is has been a favorite vacation spot for years so anywhere around there is used to people who look like you.

Dress strongly female.  Don't let them guess.  Pick colors and fashions that strongly gender you as female.  Skirts instead of pants.  Pinks instead of black.  Maybe wear a pushup bra if you can find one that fits.

It doesn't take long to put on some lipstick and quick dry nail polish.  Doesn't have to be perfect.

Marion

Quote from: LoriDee on July 16, 2024, 02:06:06 PMThese are questions you should bring up with your therapist. That is what they are there for, to help you navigate these types of issues.

Another thing you need to remember is that we are our own worst critics. What you see in the mirror is not necessarily what others see. Your reflection is a combination of images from your eyes and those stored in your brain. A therapist can help you with these issues as well.

In my hypnotherapy practice, I would discuss what we called NATs, now they call them ANTs. Automatic Negative Thoughts. It is a negative self-talk that many people experience. The way to defeat them is to closely examine them and prove they are not true.

For example: "Nothing good ever happens to me." The truth is that good things do happen to them but they are focusing on the negative.

It takes time for the changes in your body to take effect. Years even. Go easy on yourself and be patient. It will happen.

We have members here who are in between jobs. It is not impossible to find work. Maybe you will find an opportunity to work from home. Maybe you could be a consultant in your field and be your own boss. We have members here who have their own businesses. It isn't impossible, just not easy.

Are you a mind reader? You don't really know if they are disgusted, creeped out, or want to murder you. This is your perception of what you think their reaction is. Maybe people stare because they like your outfit. Maybe they weren't even looking at you, but something behind you.


I am not saying your perceptions are wrong. I wasn't there so I don't know. I think you should discuss this with your therapist and see what they say.

And go easy on yourself. It will work out.
 

Lol

You would have to literally be autistic or straight up in denial/naive to not pickup on strong social ques like
that

That's like saying if someone shoots you that you don't know for sure if they're trying to kill you so they should be let off the hook for itlmao

Quote from: Maid Marion on July 16, 2024, 02:48:21 PMMove to a place that accepts non binary people.  Provincetown is has been a favorite vacation spot for years so anywhere around there is used to people who look like you.

Dress strongly female.  Don't let them guess.  Pick colors and fashions that strongly gender you as female.  Skirts instead of pants.  Pinks instead of black.  Maybe wear a pushup bra if you can find one that fits.

It doesn't take long to put on some lipstick and quick dry nail polish.  Doesn't have to be perfect.

Marion

I've been practicing with makeup but don't really wear it because I spend most of my time at work in a overnight warehouse

I don't really wear it out either because it actually enhances my brow, chin and jaw despite my best efforts

I'm still trying to get better at it though

My eyes look super sunken in with make up on as well

It looks odd on my face

Well, OK then.

You asked and several members have offered suggestions and you seem to reject anything being said.

Good luck.

Dieting and exercise for a thin waistline is one way of showing that you are serious about your female presentation.  I just had dinner but just pulled the tape measure down to 22 inches!  Which is right in the territory of Dawn Wells of Gilligan's Island!  Many said she was more attractive than her co-star Tina Louise.

Skip the loose fitting T-Shirts.  Wear tight form fitting clothes.
I wear tight fitting crop tops. Often paired with light colored skirts/skirts.
There are feminine tops with spaghetti straps that will give you a very distinctive feminine tan.
Much different from a "farmer's tan" that results from wearing short sleeves men's shirts.
It took a while but I now have a form fitting wardrobe that fits really well and flatters my hourglass figure.

I do a lot of gardening from a squatting position to build up my lower body.
Lots of work but I have gorgeous flowers all season long.

No need to wear makeup for warehouse job but I put lipstick on when I go shopping or play golf.

Women talk to each other.  This morning I had a ten minute chat about my roses with another older lady.
I also said hi to the mailman as he passed through my yard.

Marion

Hi DG619

You have asked us for help in your OP titled "What are non passing TS folk like me supposed to do?"

In other words you are asking us "what to do in your situation?"  In all your posts so far, six of them, you have basically replied negatively in response to those who have offered help.

Well I'm going to suggest a list of things you can do, they are relatively in order of what is important, but they can be changed around and it's up to you whether you act upon them.

• Stay in your current job and still try and get that second job.
• Electrolysis for your facial hair.
• Seek therapist help in regards to your 'transitioning' and negativity.
• Check with your doctor to see what your hormone levels are, testosterone should be near zero and female hormones levels should be around the 'average' level overall.
• Save your money for those important surgeries like brow and chin surgery.

In the mean time you can do the following.

• Grow your hair longer and plait it while working.
• Learn makeup using YouTube.
• Practice voice training again YouTube.
• Look for clothes that suit your body type.

I will repeat what I said to you in my last post to you and is applicable here as well and I will paraphrase:

Quoteyou will have to navigate the myriad of obstacles that are in your way at the present, by yourself and with help from others and in doing so, you will have to find the least path of resistance to achieve your dreams.

Lori and Marion have suggested things that you can do and I have in a previous post as well, including this one.  It is up to you and only you on what you need to do.

Take care and all the best for the future.

Love and Hugs
Sarah B
Official Greeter
@Maid Marion
@LoriDee
@DG619

Muscle can be gotten rid of... it's the build due bone structure that matters a lot - that can be ameliorated somewhat with good HRT results - but can take years.

But good HRT results requires fat to be redistributed... but being heavy if one has a big build has a LOT of downsides ,even  if it if does make one look less male.

Facial bone structure means a lot and and FFS can help significantly with that - though very expensive.

For those who are significantly physically challenged with respect to passing a lot has to go right with HRT,  and you need to be pretty perfect with how one moves, speaks and dresses.. there is not much room for error so  speak.

It can all come together .. but it's not guaranteed no matter how hard you try ... but it will never happen without working at it whole heartedly

I do know how you feel.. I have been there... Big build, ribcage shoulders , originally 6ft (i shrunk a lot because of spinal issues you don't want), originally very heavy, minimal HRT results, not a great voice don't really move femininely etc..

Going in I did not see how I could ever only be known as a woman...

When I had SRS in 98 I got breast implants even though I did not want them (I wanted  it to be all "me")  as on my big frame I had less breast development than some older guys I saw jogging... then a bit over a year later I had FFS...

I probably lost more weight that you now weigh, and wound up with lot of hanging loose skin. which mean I need to wear lose fitting clothes and  things still don't fit right because of that...

In the end I got farther than I thought I could ... but that said even now I can't depend on not being read. It's not what I wanted, but it's what i got.

In my early days on line people who did not have my physical challenges had a problem with me saying what they were suggesting would not work ... I understood that their experience/situation was different from mine so they did not understand mine, but getting shunned did not feel good.

If being able to participate in society known only as woman matters to you, keep trying and working toward that... You are younger than I was one I started teh process. My first therapy appointment was when i was 38 IIRC...

You don't know where you will end up for sure, and I understand you may have good reason to be worried about it... But worrying won't help anything - and believe me I learned that the hard way!

So do what you can. If facial structure is an issue, if you can find a way to afford it, get FFS. Work at the non physical clues... and spend some time in places where no one knows you and interact with people .., That is the one way to get truly objective feed back on how well one is passing -  though you have to look at the nuances in how people treat you as many won't outright say anything.

It may turn out that things you can change , maybe with a little surgical help, can get you where you want to be...

It's hard when we look in the mirror to see the changes and appreciate them, just is as it can be hard for people that knew us "before" to see us as women.

- Karen

I know a big girl that doesn't pass but she is still living the best years of her life in a community that accepts her!  Her employer needs her skills and the company community was already diverse before she got there.  When I retired I visited every department and made sure that everyone knew I was different, chatting with someone I knew while wearing clothes that left no doubt I was presenting female! Decades ago they had an LGBTQ table at company dinners for those of us who were different. At least two managers were known to be gay by everyone.

"General Impression" is how folks decide gender. One's figure and walk may be all someone needs to decide that I'm female as I'm walking up to them. 
Once that is decided my voice may just be "icing on the cake" to reinforce that determination.  Whether I have a beard or not may totally irrelevant based on the conclusive evidence in their mind!  Their mind is made up and almost nothing will change that!

Point is, if you have enough going for you, the details don't matter. That isn't how people's gender calculators work.  I have decades of male failing.

It is a long hard journey to change your voice, walk, and mannerisms.

Clothes may not be a walk in the park either, if  you are big and tall. What they don't tell you in the "What to Wear" shows is that they spend a lot of money on alterations. The clothes are professionally altered to fit properly. Woman are constantly judged on appearance, not height.  Guys are judged by height.
Small women have an easy time finding clothes while there is just one or two specialty makers for short guys.  Payless used to be the favorite shoe store of Cross Dressers.  I remember the huge selection of shoes right at the very front of a Payless store I visited to buy candy!  Now I know why!
It is a lot of work but wearing clothes that fit properly and are appropriate for the occasion at hand will go a  long way toward "passing."

Airplanes have a "coffin corner."  Pilots need to stay out of those conditions or risk death.
I try to stay out of the ambiguous zone between male and female.
Folks may not know why but seeing someone in that zone makes them very nervous and distrustful.

Marion

Honey you need to listen to these girls. I don't even think Lori needs to look for gold... she finds it every time she makes a post. And Sarah is like she's the ice bath you need when it's way too hot. Between them they are people you really, REALLY need to listen to.

I get how angry and frustrated you are. I've been in that place. I am someone who will never pass. I've been just as... incendiary as you are. You are getting much better advice than I ever got in that place... which basically amounted to "Deal with it, stop being such a <make up your own expletives>"

A lot of this is mental. I know you don't think it is, but it is. Listen to Sarah and Lori because they are speaking truth. You're looking for things to reinforce how you already think because you already don't have a high opinion of yourself.

Ghandi said "Be the change you want to see in the world.", and he was a smart dude. It comes from inside. I know you're fighting against that right now because you only care what other people think. And it makes you very prickly towards others. Trust me I went through months of this. I hated the world.

Doesn't stop it being true, though. And the girls here are giving you solid advice based on how they've dealt with things in their own life. Being angry is like... like Buddha saying "Anger is like holding a hot coal in your hand. You are the only one who gets burned."

YOU have to show the world who you are. It only comes from inside you. And this only comes from working out your anger issues. Working out all the negative things you're actively searching for to reinforce what you already think. But take it from someone who's been where you are... doing that is a much healthier, and a much more productive way of being than just hating and blaming everything for not being what you want it to be, okay?

*hugs*

I guess we just try to enjoy life, ignore hecklers and other foolish people, and be ourselves as much as possible.  Yes, it would be nice to look great and always passable but only some of us look that great.  Others look like the average woman.  Others may not do as well, perhaps because of height, or head hair, or facial features, and so on.  We do what we can to do the best with what we have.

I am just average looking, nothing wrong with that, nothing stellar with that; but, I am a nice, good, respectable, and responsible person.  That counts for something, for sure.  Most of us are just women who want to fit in with society, be self supporting, and be treated fairly.

Nothing wrong with wanting to be beautiful of course; but life goes on if we are not gorgeous.

Chrissy

MM, you have written many times about the perils of the uncanny valley, but I consider androgynous people to be attractive. Tilda Swinton, David Bowie, and Annie Lennox parlayed their androgyny to great success. I dress androgynously* and walk through the Valley of Life, fearing no evil.

*I wear nothing but cotton t-shirts in the summer and hoodies when it's cold, usually gray or dark colors to hide dirt.

Quoteignore hecklers

It breaks my heart that anyone would harass someone as gentle and kind as ChrissyRyan.

Quote from: Oldandcreaky on July 19, 2024, 03:20:26 AMMM, you have written many times about the perils of the uncanny valley, but I consider androgynous people to be attractive. Tilda Swinton, David Bowie, and Annie Lennox parlayed their androgyny to great success. I dress androgynously* and walk through the Valley of Life, fearing no evil.

*I wear nothing but cotton t-shirts in the summer and hoodies when it's cold, usually gray or dark colors to hide dirt.

^this

The other day around midday I decided to take public transportation across town on a public bus in my city. I decided to wear my hair loose which is now shoulder length, thanks to hrt and I also decided to dress androgynously.

When I got on the bus it was crowded but not nothing compared to rush hour which is later in the day but enough not to find a seat. While I was standing there on my ride I hear a sweet ladies voice from behind me say "excuse ma'am, I am just trying to get by you to the other side of the bus."

I turned around with a big smile on my face with the amazement of being properly gendered. Then, when she saw my face she said "oh, I am sorry sir, I couldn't tell from your appearance from the back, I apologize". I quickly replied "There's no need to apologize, when you called me ma'am you were correct, and when you called me sir you were also correct.

Poor soul, she was confused for a good couple of seconds, and then I think (I am assuming here) that it dawned on her that I was non-binary and we both with amazement let out a loud laughter of join on the bus almost hugging each other.

Before she continue on her journey she said "God bless you, you both look great!

This experience made my day, and totally agree with you here that androgynous people to be attractive, and beautiful!

Yes, being in the uncanny valley can be attractive as it evokes strong emotions. 
Which may be a good idea when going to a LGBTQ bar for dates.

If you are in a "safe space" with those that trust you it should not be an issue.

The big danger is thinking that dressing "in between" is safer when you are transitioning and meeting strangers who don't know you thinking you are going to "blend in" somehow when you are actually attracting attention to yourself by setting off "red flags."

Places like Provincetown are well known as safe spaces for the LGBTQ community but there are still places that aren't friendly to those outside the binary.

The big girl I mention just celebrated her first birthday in her new home. 
She is delighted with the acceptance she has gotten from her new friends and co-workers!
For her, life is good.

But, it is clear that the Original Poster  is not happy and something needs to change.

I don't pass but somehow blend in! Almost 6'2" & 117kg, broad shoulders, square face with a harsh gruff voice. I kind of dress like a hippyish outdoors old lady or birdwatcher in t shirts, hiking pants, comfy walking boots etc. Haven't worn makep for years, can't wear heels now due to back problems.For over a decade being tall put me off transitioning until I could stand it no more.Have had several public facing jobs as a bus & tram driver, hotel & bar work with very little problems.Don't think I turned out to bad for 66, transitioned full time in 1991

https://scontent.fman2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/447572997_2252060571811787_2926354051491704407_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=aa7b47&_nc_ohc=mcIb7kPLaFMQ7kNvgF6_HFD&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-2.fna&oh=00_AYBagQsy-eDCtf0ad47CgIuxl8vi7pUabe6pVcH_zBIxbQ&oe=66A00FED

You look great, Big Kim. I'm tall and broad shouldered too, but so are many of the most beautiful women, like Charlize Theron, Sigourney Weaver, and supermodels.

Thank you Old & Creaky

That is a great pic, Big Kim! Thanks for sharing.

Yes, that is a great picture.  You do a number of things to suggest you are female.
Pigtails rather than a ponytail.
The shade of blue is a good match for your skin tone. 
Your top and jewelry attract attention to your chest.
As do your pigtails!



Pigtails at 1:08
I can wear pigtails so they draw attention to the feminine tan lines on my upper shoulders.

Marion