I'd love to spark dialogue about the overlap of being trans and doing drag, and how others have played with and experience the two!
Even before I knew I was trans I was doing drag king stuff. Upon coming out as trans, there was a period of two years where I abandoned and rejected drag because I was fed the idea that it was harmful to the trans community. But now, twos years after coming out and over a year on T later, I'm starting to get back into drag again, but now I'm exploring a more "femme" variation of drag.
I guess the beauty of drag is that it's all about the performance of gender, and under that umbrella, drag can be and look like anything you want it to look like! It's fun to explore.
What has your experience with drag been like?

I know someone who does drag. He is also a minister. Drag is an art form which I find creative. People tend to conflate drag with being trans. They may think that's how we really but it is not true. I've gone to drag shows and enjoy them.

Exactly. I have a relative who is gay and manages an LGBTQ-friendly campground. Each week they have some kind of event, very often drag shows with various themes: "Red Dress Night Out", "Show Us Your Go-Go Boots", "Tiki Bar Night", etc. He is not into drag himself, but he participates and everyone has a great time. It is an art form but also can be just having fun. And because transgender people often are accepting and supporting, the uneducated assume that means it is the same thing.

Drag can trace its roots back to ancient Greece, and probably beyond. It is very much an art form. In performing arts, drag was a thing almost 2000 years ago. And has been all throughout history. Shakespearian plays used it a lot.

Personally I love the idea of boundaries being fluid rather than static. And expression being allowed to be expression. Quite outside of the idea of being trans, or anything to do with that.

I did find it interesting to learn that the term "Drag" was an expression coined in British theatres in the 19th century, because it referred to the dresses worn which would literally drag on the floor. I never knew that. Seems very mundane for quite a beautiful artform, lol.

Drag is an Art form, and a performance art, and good drag artists are among the most talented people. It seems to be the most identifiable aspect of the LGBTQIA+ community to the general public. Many trans folk indulge in drag, some as part of their journey of discovery, and this is one area of overlap.

Unfortunately, as Drag is a performance, and often featured, it is widely confused in the general public with transgender. Drag makes a theatrical caricature of the sexes, while transgender needs to correct an internal incongruence. They are different. Often, the first image our friends and family imagine when trans people come out, is drag. While those people usually enjoy the art form, they really don't want their loved ones to adopt it as a lifestyle. Even legislators confuse this and it affects laws governing transgender people. And so this misconception creates a bad situation for trans people, and for this reason, many trans people do not like drag.

Let's be clear, trans people really have nothing against drag, but dislike the confusion of the two. While I believe Drag is a legitimate performing art, I think it is important to acknowledge the confusion, and urge all to do their best to clarify this to the general public. It won't solve the problems, but it might help.

Hugs,

Allie

This has nothing to do with the artform, Allie.

This is a prime example of "I can explain it to you, but I cannot understand it for you."

Acknowledging the confusion is just acknowledging that people need to get to grips with themselves. it is not the performer of the piece anymore than it is Romeo and Juliet in the 16th century having a girl play Romeo.

Ignorance is the realm of the individual. It's a choice people make to not want to understand. Especially with sites like this... that allow anyone to learn.

Ignorance is no excuse. Not anymore.

Confusion is only a thing because people refuse to learn the difference. And there comes a time where you cannot forgive ignorance in all this. With literally so much information around.

Quote from: Allie Jayne on July 26, 2024, 06:48:31 PMtrans people really have nothing against drag, but dislike the confusion of the two.

Yes, this.

I recognize drag as an art form, and I know the performers are often very talented and good at what they do.  And I know that the performers are usually good allies for us.  But watching a drag performance isn't my cup of tea.  As a caricature, it hits a little too close to home.  It feels that it is me - us - that is being parodied, and that makes me uncomfortable.  I think the general public are not clear on the difference between drag and trans and that the resulting confusion hurts us as a group.

Quote from: KathyLauren on July 26, 2024, 07:51:35 PMYes, this.

I recognize drag as an art form, and I know the performers are often very talented and good at what they do.  And I know that the performers are usually good allies for us.  But watching a drag performance isn't my cup of tea.  As a caricature, it hits a little too close to home.  It feels that it is me - us - that is being parodied, and that makes me uncomfortable.  I think the general public are not clear on the difference between drag and trans and that the resulting confusion hurts us as a group.

You're probably right, Kathy. But it isn't meant to be a parody. That's the thing. It's not a commentary on anything. You're probably right that in a world where trans people are striving to have a voice... this is more of a thing... but this has been going on for literally millennia. If you want to look at it objectively, drag was more accepted throughout the whole of history than being trans was.

And I don't think it's really fair to... pardon the pun... to drag this into the trans sphere when it never has been for hundreds of years. Either through trans people or not trans people wanting to find things to use as a spire to make an issue around. If some drag performers come out later to be trans... good for them. That's no different to any other actor doing any other performance coming out to be trans.

I really don't see an issue other than people making it an issue because they either don't want to learn about, or don't want to accept the difference. Which... isn't your problem.

Quote from: Sephirah on July 26, 2024, 06:57:01 PMThis has nothing to do with the artform, Allie.

This is a prime example of "I can explain it to you, but I cannot understand it for you."

Acknowledging the confusion is just acknowledging that people need to get to grips with themselves. it is not the performer of the piece anymore than it is Romeo and Juliet in the 16th century having a girl play Romeo.

Ignorance is the realm of the individual. It's a choice people make to not want to understand. Especially with sites like this... that allow anyone to learn.

Ignorance is no excuse. Not anymore.

Confusion is only a thing because people refuse to learn the difference. And there comes a time where you cannot forgive ignorance in all this. With literally so much information around.

Sephira, In my experience, most people who have the difference explained to them, understand and will then see trans people in a different light. Yes, there is a lot of information around, but most people do not see this information, they see tv shows about drag and assume this is about trans people. We, the drag and trans communities need to educate about the difference. Because trans issues are important to us, we learn about them, but for people who have no contact with trans people, I must forgive them for their ignorance of the issues, and if I need them to understand, I feel the need to educate them.

Drag and trans overlap at times with participants (as mentioned by the OP), but I wanted to mention the overlap in public perception as it is important for us to recognise.

Hugs,

Allie

Quote from: Allie Jayne on July 26, 2024, 08:07:48 PMSephira, In my experience, most people who have the difference explained to them, understand and will then see trans people in a different light. Yes, there is a lot of information around, but most people do not see this information, they see tv shows about drag and assume this is about trans people. We, the drag and trans communities need to educate about the difference. Because trans issues are important to us, we learn about them, but for people who have no contact with trans people, I must forgive them for their ignorance of the issues, and if I need them to understand, I feel the need to educate them.

Drag and trans overlap at times with participants (as mentioned by the OP), but I wanted to mention the overlap in public perception as it is important for us to recognise.

Hugs,

Allie

My point is that if someone wants to base their whole world view on a reality TV show with some token faux-trans person, because it gets views.. we cannot control what the media shove down people's throats. Because they only care about yes or no. Light or dark. Either approach to programming gets views. Make someone hate something, or make them love something. If they make someone not care about something either way... they've failed in their purpose.

You have to dig a bit deeper to see how this performance art is it's own thing. I very much agree. But it makes me uncomfortable how it makes trans people uncomfortable because I don't think this was ever the intent throughout the whole of the millennia it was a thing. If anything, drag was there before trans was even being talked about.

If people confuse the two, that's no one's fault other than the person doing the confusing. Because they take everything at face value and don't want to educate themselves. It's not something the trans person, or the person who performs as a drag artist should feel any sort of guit about or association with.

You know what they say about assumptions. It makes an ass out of u and i.

Allie and Sephirah, I think you ladies are both saying the same thing, just from different points of view.

It is a matter of education/ignorance for those who do not understand/or want to understand the difference. The "caricature" becomes obvious when you see the extreme make-up and formal gowns in an informal setting. But that is part of the art. I would venture to say that most trans women do not dress that way. We are trying to fit in, not stand out. But trans people are more accepting and supportive of anyone who wants to express themselves in any manner. We recognize that expressing our individuality is important to us. Members of the herd only understand herd mentality. Thus, if we are supportive and accepting then we must be "one of them".

My cousin would post pics on FB of the various events he hosted. I would criticize him saying if he is going to wear a miniskirt, shave those legs! And those pits? Ugh, my eyes! He laughs about it. After all, he only participates because he is "management" and hosting the event. No one is being critical, everyone is just having fun drinking, dancing, and showing off their fancy outfits. I honestly don't know if any trans people attended any of these events. They seem to be more popular with the gay/lesbian community. We are all part of the LGBTQ+ universe, so technically, we are one of them and they are us.

I'm just happy that a trans-man posted.

Quote from: Oldandcreaky on July 27, 2024, 07:23:03 AMI'm just happy that a trans-man posted.

Yeah, we definitely need more guys around here..

Drag is a type of art.. much like blackface is.   Yeah, I went there. Sorry, but if you are a guy, you dress up in ludicrous woman's attire, and satirise aspects of femininity.. then you are not only parodying 50% of the population for 'entertainment' but you are also perpetuating the notion that it is okay to do this too..
Young women in this world have enough problems with the media telling them how to look, act and respond.. Those who hold the media attention and power utilise their performance to mock those less powerful and so they re-enforce social stereotypes that are beneficial for them and detrimental to others... effectively dominating and silencing the group being parodied..


If you find this type of thing entertainment.. then good for you, it isn't illegal. Personally I find it repulsive and I dislike the association it has in the publics imagination with transgender. This 'art' has nothing to do with being trans or being a woman in any way, shape or form.

Dr Grace Barnes wrote in the Guardian newspaper earlier this year.

QuoteDrag is being utilised – RuPaul's Drag Race being an example – to tick the inclusion box, when it is, in fact, exclusionary, sexist and insulting to women. The last thing women need is yet another strand of popular culture reinforcing the necessity for their silence concerning an issue that has damaging ramifications for all women.

Oof.

It's easy to focus on men dressing up as women. What about women dressing up as men? That has been a thing just as long throughout history. A lot of this is literally 21st century problems. The whole 2 millennia before that, no one had an issue with it.

Go check out the Yuan Dynasty in China, in the 13th and 14th century. It was commonplace for women to play men in theatre and drama during that time.

Literally centuries of people having no issue with it... it's only in the last 50 or so years where it's become a massive thing because trans people take massive umbrage with it. An example of the internet and reality TV being a complete force for horrible in the world. Because if someone thinks they can capitalise on the public zeitgeist... you can bet your bottom dollar they will. For good or ill.

The public's imagination with transgender isn't the fault of cross-gender performance. That has been a thing long before any of us were even born. No it doesn't have anything to do with being a woman, or a man. That was never the point. And it's only recently that this was muddied to become about that. Because these days, it seems like everything has to be about that.

My first foray in to theatre was when I was in primary school. I played Jack's mother in a school pantomime performance of Jack and the Bean Stalk. I had an over the top dress on with literally two volley balls shoved down my top. I didn't think anything of it. When I was on stage and met the guy playing Jack (one of my best friends), we were corpsing like nothing you've ever seen. But I didn't read into it any more than what it was. Pantomime is full of it. Theatre is full of it. Always has been. Cross gender performance is just... it's a thing. To hold men or women as some divine sacred thing that can't ever be touched upon by anyone not worthy is just... silly. In my opinion.

I am sorry, the history angle does not work here. In 19th century England, children of 4 were pushed up chimneys.. we don't condone 3rd world child workforces now.. but they could easily point to our own history.
Over history, Christians have been thrown to the lions and many, many other heinous things.
To be clear, the reason women played male roles in 14thC China was for a lot of reasons, one of them the 'spectacle' of seeing a woman do those roles.. a type of porn if you like. They also managed to get education by doing this (and let's be honest here, this was seen as derogatory for them to do - not what a nice woman would be willing to perform - the education was a means to an end - a lot like prostitution putting you through college)..

As it stands today - people are writing to Target asking them to reverse their bathroom policy for transgender people (allowing them to use the bathroom they identify with) with the phrases such as 'It will allow paedophiles access'.. That is a real concern of a shopper in Target in the USA today.. yes, it is uneducated and fails to understand that paedophiles will use bathrooms regardless of the rules. But still, this is the reason trans people are 'taking massive umbridge' as you put it.. because the association with men dressing up as women, the parody of that and the media association with rapist and near-do wells, is all part of the victimisation and hatred for people who simply have a gender that does not equal their birth one.

In an ideal world, maybe a guy could dress up as a woman for a laugh. But in today's charged society, with people literally being shot dead on the street because they are transsexual it is a moot point to try and draw a veil or justify anything that pushes that narrative further from what is the truth for most transsexual people in this world.

Quote from: SoupSarah on July 27, 2024, 10:28:23 PMAs it stands today - people are writing to Target asking them to reverse their bathroom policy for transgender people (allowing them to use the bathroom they identify with) with the phrases such as 'It will allow paedophiles access'.. That is a real concern of a shopper in Target in the USA today.. yes, it is uneducated and fails to understand that paedophiles will use bathrooms regardless of the rules. But still, this is the reason trans people are 'taking massive umbridge' as you put it.. because the association with men dressing up as women, the parody of that and the media association with rapist and near-do wells, is all part of the victimisation and hatred for people who simply have a gender that does not equal their birth one.

In an ideal world, maybe a guy could dress up as a woman for a laugh. But in today's charged society, with people literally being shot dead on the street because they are transsexual it is a moot point to try and draw a veil or justify anything that pushes that narrative further from what is the truth for most transsexual people in this world.

Today's charged society, as you put it, has nothing to do with cross gender performance. It has to do with the internet, reality TV... how much do you really think Drag has to do with any of this? And it's not for "a laugh". Do some research on cross gender performance throughout history. Don't blame the absurd mental minefield that is today's world on cross gender performance. That's just too easy a target. It's bullying and shifting the blame.

It's a scapegoat. An easy target. And I find that just as disgusting that trans people hate on this as much as I do cis people hating on trans folks. Because they don't know any better and it's a low hanging fruit when it comes to finding a way to pass the buck.

I get your appeal to emotion, Sarah, but it's a logical fallacy because in the context of cross gender performance, it's ultimately irrelevant.

You can't say people can't do what they've been doing for hundreds of years just because the latest reality TV/internet echo chamber crowd don't like it. That's not fair. And it makes you look bad.

There is no argument against this other than "Waaaaah, it makes the haters hate even moar!" That's just really... really sad.

Quote from: Sephirah on July 27, 2024, 10:51:34 PMToday's charged society, as you put it, has nothing to do with cross gender performance. It has to do with the internet, reality TV... how much do you really think Drag has to do with any of this? And it's not for "a laugh". Do some research on cross gender performance throughout history. Don't blame the absurd mental minefield that is today's world on cross gender performance. That's just too easy a target. It's bullying and shifting the blame.

It's a scapegoat. An easy target. And I find that just as disgusting that trans people hate on this as much as I do cis people hating on trans folks. Because they don't know any better and it's a low hanging fruit when it comes to finding a way to pass the buck.

I get your appeal to emotion, Sarah, but it's a logical fallacy because in the context of cross gender performance, it's ultimately irrelevant.

You can't say people can't do what they've been doing for hundreds of years just because the latest reality TV/internet echo chamber crowd don't like it. That's not fair. And it makes you look bad.

There is no argument against this other than "Waaaaah, it makes the haters hate even moar!" That's just really... really sad.

I take it then, you are perfectly okay with a white actor blackening their face and portraying a black stereotype on stage?... for this has been going on for centuries too.. it is a legitimate form of art - an artform that many performers made their own and earned good salaries out of. Even a whole musical ensamble, 'The Black and White Minstrels' toured our local town once. I was taken to see it in the 1970s.. My family found it very entertainin.. I was also taken to see the stage show 'Hinge and Bracket'. Very, very funny couple of drag artists. Portraying two very posh ladies -  and then later they themselves got parodied by Little Britain.. Art evolves and history should teach us lessons. Many many people including a lot of my cis-female friends find the content and the delivery of drag artists performances offensive. At best they are stereotyping a sector of society. Women have fought for centuries for equal rights and fair representation. When a group of men take the view that their 'art' is more important than the betterment of society we best sit up and take notice.
In the 1990's I had the privileged to manage a business in Covent Garden in central London. My business was next door to the Elite model agency, Stringfellows and a number of gay clubs (and Carnaby street just over the way!).. my involvement in all of these other establishments allowed me to form my opinions of such things. The gay men whom I mixed with, chatted with and had lunch with were very clear to me about what they considered their artform to be. From that I developed my own conclusions and, as a woman - I don't believe their art form or its intention is to better the world we live in. (and as a side, I don't think model agencies are heroes and Pete Stringfellow was no saint! Interesting times though.)..

Sarah, the whole blacking up thing is a straw man argument and you know it. It's rather weak. Sorry but it is.

As I say, this has only become a thing in the last 50 years. How much of what you've just said is TV shows? Not theater. Not the medium where cross gender performance has had it's roots. The idea of cross gender performance isn't to parody. It's not to have any sort of social commentary on the parts being played.

WE've done that in the last few decades because the rise of trans understanding has sometimes directly contradicted the idea of someone of one sex dressing up as the other sex. Because we feel it might confuse people. We throw it under the bus because it isn't a good look for us. Which is just... extremely egocentric.

There was a place in San Francisco called Finocchio's Club that had shows of female impersonators that were truly amazing. Looks, voice, gestures, singing, dancing. All for entertainment. I only got to see one show while I was in California, but it was one I won't forget.

Quote from: Lori Dee on July 28, 2024, 12:09:20 AMThere was a place in San Francisco called Finocchio's Club that had shows of female impersonators that were truly amazing. Looks, voice, gestures, singing, dancing. All for entertainment. I only got to see one show while I was in California, but it was one I won't forget.

Lori, I also saw a 'female impersonator' show, and I think it was a bit different to drag. The costumes were gorgeous, similar to the showgirls of the day, and the performers did their best to emulate the cis performers. Drag, on the other hand, over accentuates features and the costumes are over the top, it's more theatrical and a true art form when done well. But, as it seeks exposure, Drag is what most people see, either at Pride festivals, or on high rating TV shows like Drag Race, and as nobody explains the difference, the general public conflates it with transgender.

When I came out, many of my friends, and my daughter, pictured me in drag. This made them uncomfortable, and complicated my coming out. I don't blame my friends and relatives, they were just acting on what they knew. I don't blame the art form of Drag, it is a legitimate art form. I blame lack of general education about Transgender. But, I think it important to recognise that the confusion causes difficulties for trans people, and that both groups make efforts to educate people.

Hugs,

Allie