Quote from: Teri Anne on January 08, 2006, 09:58:04 PM
Just give me YOUR BOTTOM LINE WHY YOU BELIEVE.

Teri Anne

Wow, religion. I believe there is a force out there and people choose to call it (the force) God.
I honestly believe religion is the root of all evil. Wars, oppresion, cleansing of races are all religion based.

My big question is, Who is right?

If you are born in India you will be Hindu. Middle East you have the Koran and be a Muslim. Asia you will be a buhdist. America you can be any number of things, mostly Christian based. So if you are born here in the states you are taught your god is right and everybody else is wrong. They are taught the same thing and have the same determination and convictions as the others. With christians it's brainwashing with fear of going to hell. Then they show and teach ideas of hell that scare you into doing right.

I do feel religion is important in some aspects that if the Fear of going to hell will keep somebody on the straight and narrow and decide to be good to humanity then that is just fine and dandy. Being TS is already hell so trying to tell me that I am going to hell is not going to change what I am or what I want to do. And since Jesus already died for my sins then why should I fear him/her and how I would be judged?? Maybe I was put here to change and teach others to be more loving and accepting anyhow.

I do believe we all have souls and some are good and some are bad. There are evil people. There are good people and then there are some that fit in the middle. What constitutes a good or evil person? Does it have to be based on the bible? Or can society just accept somebody as being good or evil with out the religious overtones.

I feel society is so brainwashed with bible teachings that it is not possible to seperate it. I feel the bible is good because it tells you to be good and do good. But since it was translated and written by man, then we are living on somebodies idea.

In the dark ages when the bubonic plague hit, thousands were burned at the stake because of the fear they were witches and causing the sickness. All that fear based on religion has killed millions in history.

I do believe there is a higher power and we should all be open and kind to each other, but don't look for me in the local church. I have prayed from time to time in desperation. It is not going to stop my feelings or wanting to "butcher" my body. Funny how there are sick people that feel the need to dismember their arms or legs and are considered wierd, but as soon as you want to do that to genital or breasts, then you are "butchering" yourself.

I have decided you cannot teach or explain what it is like to be TS and until you have spent a month in my shoes you could never possibly hope to understand. Its complicated enough without bringing religion into it.

Lori, you wrote, "My big question is, Who is right?"

My answer is that they all are, or at least were.  I know that the experience of God (for lack of a better word) is universal.  If you're human, this is what God feels like.  But, say you truly felt the prescence of the Almightly and you wanted to tell everyone around you about it?  How would you describe it?  You would use words and symbols from the world and culture around you.  That's the only way to communicate something so foreign to normal everyday experience: through metaphor, simile and analogy.  So that's where the different religions come from.  They started out as descriptions, in recognizable cultural terms, of what God felt like and how to reproduce the experience.  The problem is that words and other symbols are woefully inadequate to define the experience.  And on top of that, humans pervert the original teaching over time for any number of reasons so that by the time one or two thousand years have gone by the original teaching is all but lost.

And why do I "believe?"  I don't.  Believing means taking someone else's word for it.  Faith, to me, is a willingness to have it be so.  Not a blind, suspend your best judgement slavery!  And I think that if one approaches spirituality from that direction the dogma, prejudice and exclusionary self-righteousness fall away and give the opportunity to experience the real thing.

helen

Personaly I like to believe the Hare Krishnas at the airport are right 

If you know anything about the bible there is a passage about worshiping a false idol. It was taught in my Christian church as well growing up with the bruises of dicipline. That would make the catholics and buhdists wrong according to the Christian faith. That is why I asked "Who is right?"

I take back what I said earlier. I am no longer religious.

I just don't understand religion anymore. It's a bunch of conflicting believes. I don't quite understand why if woman are so "unclean" and they should submit to their husbands then why did God make them?

It doesn't make any sense to me, and I could point out other problems in Christianity too.

but what I see in it is it was a way people 1000s or so years ago started controlling people to make them believe what they believe. and it's still doing the same thing. I won't let it do it to me anymore.

and why if there is a God am I going through this? Isn't God supposed to love me? Why would God make something that the Bible says is "wrong". I've prayed for years and years and nothing has happened. Nothing has got better.

Therefore I no longer believe.

hey! Agian as always this has been an interesting post. I was lost for a bit during the whole science and space discussion but hopefully can join in agian.
Victoria I would like to offer some responses to a couple of your comments.
1) women submitting to their husbands. Could you please give the verses in the bible you are making this claim on. I think i know the ones you are talking about but i would like to make sure. But to speak generally the bible speaks of an equal relationship between men and women.
2) Christianity being used to control people. It has been done i can not argue that. To say that one needs to abandon religion to stop the controlling in their life does not make sense to me. My faith is my own, my ideas are my own, ones i've come to understand to be true. I can also think of many more people in the same situation as me. Just think of the people of faith on susans. Most christian churchs do not accept Cd or TG people yet the people on susans have come to an understanding in their faith outside the majority of others.
3) i don't quite remember what you are going through. (if you are regarding your feelings on Cd or TG) I know for me it has been a hard time reconciling my feelings and my faith. I want to go to my feelings because they feel better. I can't understand why God has let these feelings be apart of my life. I may suggest that God did not make you this way but rather it is a product of nurture in soceity. The great thing for me is in my journay is that I no longer try to figure out why God let this happen to me but rather that God is with me. I can't say why God has or has not answered your prayers but i do wish to say that if I may have the privilage I would like to continue to pray for you. We are all on a journay in our life and one great thing about susans is that its a journay we take together.
With love and thoughts. James

1) women submitting to their husbands. Could you please give the verses in the bible you are making this claim on. I think i know the ones you are talking about but i would like to make sure. But to speak generally the bible speaks of an equal relationship between men and women.   

Ephesians 5.22-25 springs to mind..."Let wives be subject to their husbands as to the Lord; because a husband is head of the wife, just as Christ is head of the Church"...yada yada.

I have this book, and am unable to find it at the moment but here is a handy link to find bible verses concerning the chattel status of women.

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/women.php

Quote from: HelenW on March 06, 2006, 07:21:01 PM
But, say you truly felt the prescence of the Almightly and you wanted to tell everyone around you about it?  How would you describe it?  You would use words and symbols from the world and culture around you.  That's the only way to communicate something so foreign to normal everyday experience: through metaphor, simile and analogy

Sounds a bit like TSism and "feeling female," doesn't it?

Quote from: HelenW on March 06, 2006, 07:21:01 PMAnd why do I "believe?"  I don't.  Believing means taking someone else's word for it.

Well, believing can also be by choice. I believe in faeries, for example, but for me it's because I willingly, joyfully *choose* to believe in them... without regard to evidence or what I've read. It's a harmless belief that adds a splash of colour and fun to my existence, so I cherish it - and them.

hello!
I want to respond on the verses about women in the bible. NO where in the bible does it suggest men should suppress women or treat them unfairly. In regard to ephessions i would ask that one reads verse 25-33 in chapter 5. When looking at these verses one must incorporate the culture that the writtings were written in. Thanks for the website, i'll look into it and try to offer an explanation to some of those verses because I was rasied to believe that the bible does not oppress women, this could be caused by my denomonational upbringing.
James

Quote from: Kate on March 21, 2006, 11:44:02 AM
Sounds a bit like TSism and "feeling female," doesn't it?

Yes it does, except the feeling of the Creator's presence is universal so many more people can "get it" but being stuck in a body that is wrong for you is not.  So practically no one who hasn't experienced it can or will "get it."

Very unfortunate since that's the main reason why those uninititated people think it must be a viable lifestyle choice rather than a choice between living or dying.

helen

hello! I want to respond more directly to andy's comment on Ephesians 5:21-35. Below is a section from my Intro to NT text book. pg 387
  "The theme for the next part of the discussion, the rules for conduct within the family (the Haustafel), is given at the outset: "be subordinate to one another out of reverance for christ" (5:21). By placing his advice to the various kinds of person who constitute a Greco-Roman household under that rubic, the author differentiates what follows very clearly from the kind of advice given in comparable non-christian rules, but changed the content dramatically. The purpose of such rules in the non-christian community was to reinforce the hierachical structure of the Greco-Roman family and to quell any attempts to disturb that structure, in which men were preeminent, then women, then children, and finally slaves. Nowwhere in those rules would there be found any hint that all were to be subordinate to one another. The word "subordinate" is alos important. Often incorrectly translated "subject," the greek word refers to occupying one's proper place in the order of things. It Points not to domination and obedience, but rather to function properly within the good order of the family. And that good order, the author informs his reader at the outset, is dertermined by th self-sacraficing love of Christ.
   The author speaks of the roles of various persons in the household within the framework of that love. Wives are to find their proper relation to their own husbands. Note well, the point here is the proper relation to the husband, not to men as such. Such respect is compared to the respect shown by the church to its savior Christ. This is not a requirment that a wife do whatever the husband wants and obey whatever he may command, however harmful or pervesrse it may be. That would be precisly to break the rule that wives find their proper realation to their husbands, because such demands by a husband would already have broken the mutual subordination in Christ characterisitics of the Christian family.
  Husbands similarly are to exericse their proper relation to their own wives, which is that of Christ to the Church, namely willingness to sacrafice  oneself for the good of others. Indeed, when a family functions correctly, the husband respects the wife with as much natural spontaneity as he respects his own body, clothing it when cold and feeding it when hungry. Thus, husbands must put the good of their wives before their own good as, the author concludes once more, Christ did for the Church. (5:32)"
     Source
Inroducing the New Testament: Its literature and theology by Paul J. Achtemeier, Joel B. Green and Marianne Meye Thompson

  People have used scripture to oppress women. How? they take their modern world view and twist it to their liking. When studying scripture it is important to look into the context of the culture. Most, if not all of the scripture mentioned on that web page above would be proven to be pro-women if viewed from the time in which it is written. I apologize if I came off as preaching, it was not my intent. I wanted to set the record that website miss quoted many of those verses and to educate people that the bible does not oppress women but rather fights for equality. With this I hope people can pass this knowledge on so these verses will no longer be used to oppress women rather fight for equality in the family.

 

Quote from: jamesBrine on March 25, 2006, 08:45:45 AM
When looking at these verses one must incorporate the culture that the writtings were written in.

Not that I'm trying to come down hard on you personally, but WHY must I "incorporate the culture the writings were written in"? Did God ask that the current "culture" be incorporated into his bible? Did the writers misunderstand God? Is the all-powerful God, someone that created the earth and the heavens incapable of getting a clear and consise bible written?

Sorry, the burden is not on the reader to figure out this slopply written and vague book. Never mind the absence of compelling evidence that any of it is true.

hello!
  Thanks agian for your imput Alexandra. I want to make it clear that scholars believe that the bible was written for a 1st century audience not the 21st century audience. I do not want to say that it has no releveance on our lives because i beleive it does.
   Take for example the book of revelation, it is full of imagery from the 1st century. They used the term "seven hills' to describe a place, in our times this could mean anything but if you take culture of the 1st century into the picture it would point to Rome becaue Rome was built on Seven hills. The term "seven hills" refers to Rome in Revelation. (Rev 17:9) keep in mind the seven heads and women also represt something.
  World views change, people must read the bible on its terms. A non-cd can't understand a cd if they are looking through their eyes, they must place themselves in the shoes of the cd. So must people do this when studying the bible. When one does this the bible makes alot more sense and shows alot more love then reading it a face value, it no longer because rules rather offers guidances and hope to ones life. 
  you talk about it being a burden to figure out the bible, when you read evidence in science is it your burden to figure it out? When reading many great works of shakespere, pascal, Nietzsche do you not have to understand their culture and world view before you can understand what they are writting about? As you say i'm not trying to attack you but rather argue what you wrote.
   P.S. grateful for your response
      Love and thoughts James!

Quote from: jamesBrine on March 26, 2006, 03:10:15 AM
when you read evidence in science is it your burden to figure it out?

At least there is evidence to exam when an explaintion seems dubious! 

I would think the Bible needs at least a few compelling pieces of evidence to make worthwhile of spending time on it and incorporating what it says into one's daily life.

I would think spiritually, we'd all be better off as a society if people with spiritual needs would just imagine what an ideal Supreme Being would be like and just worship Her in your own image.

What say you?

Quote from: Alexandra on March 26, 2006, 02:32:54 AM
Not that I'm trying to come down hard on you personally, but WHY must I "incorporate the culture the writings were written in"? Did God ask that the current "culture" be incorporated into his bible? Did the writers misunderstand God? Is the all-powerful God, someone that created the earth and the heavens incapable of getting a clear and consise bible written?

Sorry, the burden is not on the reader to figure out this slopply written and vague book. Never mind the absence of compelling evidence that any of it is true.

                I feel a need to answer this question, not because I believe the passages in the bible (I have my own god) but because I know and respect people who do.

                If there really is a God as described in the bible would it tell it's followers all the details of their existance? I don't believe so. Maybe that God nudged a little planet into just the right orbit to have the needed temperatures and receive water from comets. Maybe it also sent the building blocks of life crashing from outer space. It could have waited millions of years for all to develop (a pitance in eternity time) sending an occasional asteroid to mix things up if it wasn't developing exactly as planned, I could go on but you get the idea.

                If he spoke to one of the humans, could he tell of the building blocks of life, the millions of years and all the scientific explanations of dna, how the earth developed and life was formed? I don't think so. It is much like when a child asks for an explaination of a complicated subject. One just gives an answer that falls within the childs ability to understand.

beth

hello!
Alexandra you said that their should be a few pieces of evidence before looking into the bible. Can you please define what you mean by a few. Take for example Jesus lived, historical accuracy of many occasions mentioned in the bible, The life/transition of Paul, the formation of the early church. One could find many aspects of evidence. The greatest evidence in my mind is the impact of the bible over time (good and bad) , the life changing experiences of many. No matter what evidence is given you could always say you want more, may i ask what kind of evidence one shoud have before one should incorporate the bible in their lives. 

Society being better off
One example of how the church did good. Fighting for the Rights of women in the early church. It was Rome that oppressed women not the church. With a sad heart i must admit that the church has had a fair part in oppressing women. But to say that if all people kept their religion silent we be better off i would disagree with because humans will find another aspect of life to make the "face" of all the worlds problems.

You want humans to imagine their own Gods. This sounds even more dangerous to me. This is the problem with Christianity because people have their own ideas of who God is. Some see God as hating gays and they worship God accordingly by persecuting gays, other see God as vengeful and act on his behalf. Not everyone will have a loving view of the surpreme being and who's to tell them their wrong if everyone has their own God.
James

good comments and questions! . . . but I gotta go. I promise I'll answer them soon! 

I look forward to your reply
James

A person given a candy bar doesn't eat the wrapper.  Given a treasure map, he doesn't toss it on the ground, tread upon it until he reaches the X, and exclaim "I'm rich!".  He doesn't, upon spying his foe, hold his thumb and index finger up to his eye, and, closing them together, say "I'm crushing your head!  I'M CRUSHING YOUR HEAD!".  But it's amazing how people confuse the means and the ends when it comes to scripture.

-Celia

hey!
sorry celia I was unable to understand what you meant by "But it's amazing how people confuse the means and the ends when it comes to scripture." If it is not to much trouble could you please elaborate on what you wrote
Thanks! James

Hi Celia,
I am not really sure what you are getting at here.  You will have to "dumb it down" a bit for me thanks.

regards

rana